Hello wuTao,

Thanks for your giving opinion. Before we discuss in detail, I need to clarify that the following of your quote of mine was not sent to Yun, since he is not Vietnamese. I sent to trueViet

Hello thankstoall,

Yes, I know you addressed that to TrueViet. I'm just pointing out that the quote is hostile and confrontational to the Chinese members here, especially by referring to us as "enemies".

thankstoall:

Maybe you have not realised that not one time I summaried the BaiYue theory. It is true as Yun say,
the BaiYue theory is made up by some Vietnamese alone, not a single Chinese. This time, I do
the summary one more time, just for you alone.

The BaiYue concept includes, not limited to, the following points:
1- Ancient Vietnamese are BaiYue people. BaiYue people are ancient Vietnamese.
2- Vietnamese culture belongs to BaiYue culture. BaiYue culture belongs to Vietnamese culture.
3- BaiYue area was up to the YangZi river.

These points are illustrated and supported by quotations from DaYueShiJiQuanShu with the legend
of LuoLongQun and OuJi being from ShenNong, the belief of ZhaoTuo being the first Vietnam king,
ancient Vietnamese were citizen of the state of Chu during the SpringAutumn era, etc.

Yun is talking about the Pan-Yueism, and I am talking about BaiYueism, saying that the Pan-Yueism
has only one half of the viewpoints from the BaiYueism. I do not have time to point out everything
in your posts. I hope that this time you grasp my general idea rather than seeing every tree but failing
to see the forest.

I am saying that I will fight for the course of keeping the creators of the BaiYue concept beeing shut.
I do not create enemy, but I do not care if someone dislikes me. They'd better avoid me instead.
They lack of persueysive evidents, and their belief is against the belief of majority of the Vietnamese.
Like the minority people in the world, who are proud to be themselves, we the Vietnamese do not want
to be Chinese, or from Chinese, or to have Chinese culture.

I am not interested in translating a Chinese poem into English. The Chinese members may be more
suitable candidates for this job.

I mentioned my BaiYue ancentry when there were Chinese here claiming Vietnamese lost Han Chinese. Then, have you ever seen that I claim land, people, culture and participate in topics that are your Chinese issues? Have I ever convinced any Minnanese here to spit off Chinese or to convert to Vietnamese?



The bolded term was originally "My Minnan ancestors", not for the whole "Bach Viet". And that is my belief, as long as I do not create a thread like "Should Southern Chinese convert to Vietnamese because of their Bach Viet ancestry?". So far, have you seen that I make any claims on China?

If there were no insulting and joking words on Vietnamese history, I thinks that thing would have gone naturally. We know the Bach Viet story, but we also doubt on that and have nothing to do with it, historian may be interesting in research it, but it has nothing to do with common people. Just like you believe in Huang Di, Fuci. And your belief will be just a belief. And, what should you response if someone demand you to change your belief? However, let thing goes naturally, you may know what you should deal with it. What would you feel when people claim you should be Yue? And what should you feel when there are effords try to change the word such as "Bach Viet" in every discussion then impose a fascist face like Pan-Yueism on you if you still use that word? and how do you feel if thing is going naturally? Can you afford something that is unrealistic?

In my point of view, I do not feel that I can be proud of my loyalty in a fascist fashion.

When two are being skeptic to each other, you can not avoid me to think that "Chinese are just fabricating this theory to create an imaginary enemy, when you yourself have spoken at length about the same ideas." , because you are also skeptic to Vietnamese's discussion of Bach Viet. As a result, you come up with "Pan-Yueism" and I come up with "Chinese Agenda".

-About Yun's bad feeling. I personally did not want to creat hard feeling to him. I respect for him and thank for your hardship for us to have a place to play.

I hope thing will go naturally as any kind of discussion, and we will put any skepticism in a practical base.

Thanks for your comments.




So, I ask you if someone demand you to rewrite your history records such as denying Huang Di as your ancestors and modifying all the myths. How would you do? Without your claiming, we know those are myths.

Regards,


TTA

It seems that NguoiVietChanhTong is mercilessly attacked by Chinese forum members, and few Vietnamese members have come to his rescue.
One thing I agree with him is the fact that there has been oppression towards the Bai Yue in South China. The Vietnamese, who consider themselves descendants of the Luo Yue, and therefore feel affinity with the Bai Yue, feel the Bai Yue pain. One thousand years ago, we succeeded in getting rid of that pain. The rest of the Bai Yue never did.
But that is water under the bridge. Now, peoples in South China seem happy with the Huaxia culture, want to forget their Bai Yue heritage. And NguoiVietChanhTong is beating a dead horse. And this is where I disagree with him.

Hello wuTao,

That message was particularly sent to TrueViet who claimed to be Vietnamese, so it is irrelevant with Chinese, unless she is actually Chinese.

Regards,

TTA

The Western Zhou Dynasty established two capitals, Zongzhou 宗周 or Hao 鎬, and Chengzhou 成周 or Luo 雒. But the rulers stayed in the western regions where their people had lived for some centuries after coming from Bin 豳 (or 邠), a territory (in green) that was either located in the Fen River valley or in the west. The older capitals of the Zhou tribe were Qi 岐 and Feng 豐.
The main feudal states (zhuhou 諸侯) of the Western Zhou period are held in smaller bold letters. We find the many smaller states in the Yellow River plain, states like Zheng 鄭, Cao 曹, Song 宋 (the descendants of the House of Shang), Chen 陳, Cai 蔡, and Wei ("Wey") 衛, we have the traditionally highly esteemed state of Lu 魯(descendants of the Duke of Zhou) in the east; and finally we find the peripheral states of Yan 燕, Qi 齊 and Jin 晉 that were able to develop a larger territory than the others. The states of Qin 秦, Chu 楚, Wu 吳, and Yue 越 (in brackets) were still not enfeoffed as vassals of Zhou, they are rather seen as semi-barbarious tribes. The territories of the Shu 蜀 and Ba 巴 in modern Sichuan have their own ways of culture that are different of the "genuine" Chinese culture in the Yellow River basin.
Except these main states, we find dozens or hundreds of small vassal states (written in small black letters). They play no political role at that time, and most of them vanished during the wars of Eastern Zhou period. Some more of them can be found as states named in the Book of Songs, namely Shao 召, Bei 邶, Yong 鄘, Wei 魏, Tang 唐, Gui 檜 (here only the states not yet mentioned above). Important vassals of the founding time of Western Zhou were 管叔鮮 Shu Xian, Ruler of Guan; 成叔武 Shu Wu, Ruler of Cheng; 霍叔處 Shu Chu, Ruler of Huo; 杞東樓公 Donglou, Duke of Qi ("Qy"), a descendant of the House of Xia; 畢公高 Gao, Duke of Bi. Some of the smaller states should play an important role at the begin of the Warring States period, like Han 韓 ("Hann") and Wei 魏.
Around this center of culturally advanced states we find lots of Non-Chinese "barbarian" tribes and peoples, namely the Quanrong 犬戎 or Xianyun 玁狁 in the west, the Huaiyi 淮夷 or Xu 徐 and Yue 越 in the east, Di in the north 狄, and Pu 濮, Qiang 羌 and Man 蠻 in the southwest and south.

The Western Zhou Dynasty had to flee to their eastern capital Chengzhou 成周 or Luoyi 雒邑 after a savage attack by the western "barbarian" tribes of Quanrong 犬戎 or Xianyun 玁狁 (嚴允) in 770 BC. This is the begin of Eastern Zhou period. Unlike before, the Zhou rulers found themselves now in the middle of many smaller vassal states (zhuhou 諸侯). They had to live on the small territory near Luoyi and were further not able to expand their domains, a tendency that became more and more important for the political survival of the feudal states:
We find the many smaller states in the Yellow River plain, states like Zheng 鄭, Cao 曹, Song 宋 (the descendants of the House of Shang), Chen 陳, Cai 蔡, and Wei ("Wey") 衛, we have the traditionally highly esteemed state of Lu 魯(descendants of the Duke of Zhou) in the east; and finally we find the peripheral states of Yan 燕, Qi 齊 and Jin 晉 that were able to develop a larger territory than the others. The states of Qin 秦, Chu 楚, Wu 吳 and Yue 越 acheived the status of enfeoffed vassals of Zhou. Although once semi-barbarian tribes, they gain political and military importance for the fate of old China. The territories of the Shu 蜀 and Ba 巴 in modern Sichuan have their own ways of culture that are different of the "genuine" Chinese culture in the Yellow River basin. They have never really been incorporated into the antique Chinese realm.
The state of Wu was the first of the large territorial states that was vanquished by the others. In 473, Yue conquered Wu.
There are two states that undergo fundamental changes during the Spring and Autumn period: The state of Jin collapses by the contest of the collateral line of Quwo 曲沃 around 700 BC, and the uprise of the Six Feudal Lords (Liu Qing 六卿) of Zhongxing 中行, Zhi 智, Fan 范, Han ("Hann") 韓, Wei 魏, and Zhao 趙 at the begin of the 5th century BC. The last three (called San Jin 三晉) are able to crush the ruling house of Jin and establish their own feudal states in 376 BC. The state of Qi suffers a similar fate: The three Huan Clans (San Huan 三桓: 仲 孫 Zhongsun, 叔孫 Shusun, and 季孫 Jisun) endanger the rule of the house of Jiang 姜 in the 7th century state of Lu, and the Tian Clan 田氏 usurps the power of the state of Qi in 481 BC.
During this period, five feudal lords (Wu Ba 五霸) are able to gain hegemonial control over the other states and therewith, to take over the role of the former kings of Zhou as mediators: Duke Huan of Qi 齊桓公, Duke Wen of Jin 晉文公, Duke Mu of Qi 秦穆公, Duke Xiang of Song 宋襄公, and Duke Zhuang of Chu 楚莊王 (there might by other names told in other listings).
Except these great territorial states, we find lots of smaller city-states, among others: 虢 Guo, 鄧 Deng, 耿 Geng, 虞 Yu, 六 Liu, 英 Ying, 梁 Liang, 江 Jiang, 蓼 Liao, 庸 Yong, 翟 Di, 胡 Hu, 莒 Ju, 紀 Ji, etc.
Around this center of culturally advanced states we find lots of Non-Chinese "barbarian" tribes and peoples, namely the Quanrong 犬戎 in the west, the Huaiyi 淮夷 and Dongyi 東夷 in the east, and Pu 濮, Baiyue 百越 and Yangyue 揚粵 in the south.

The Western Zhou Dynasty in their eastern capital Chengzhou 成周 or Luoyi 雒邑 had totally lost their political significance in the game for power. To make it even worse, the house of Zhou split into the Western Branch in Henan 河南 and the Eastern Branch in Gong 鞏.
Of the other feudal states (zhuhou 諸侯) only those states were able to survive, that possessed enough territory to have the economical source necessary for a modern state and military. The largest and most active states are called the Six States (Liu Guo 六國; except Qin by Chinese historians: Qin 　, Qi 齊, Chu 楚, Yan 燕, Han ("Hann") 韓, Wei 魏, and Zhao 趙. These states started to protect their frontiers against the other states by building fortification walls (black lines).
The many smaller states in the Yellow River plain, states like Zheng 鄭, Cao 曹, Song 宋, Chen 陳, Cai 蔡, Wei ("Wey") 衛 and Lu 魯 had lost their political initiative; Cao, Chen, and Cai did not survive the 5th century, Zheng not the 4th century BC. Even Yue 越 in the southeast was beyond the political activities of the Warring States period, just like the territories of the Shu 蜀 and Ba 巴 in modern Sichuan have their own ways of culture that are different of the "genuine" Chinese culture in the Yellow River basin.
But we also find a new state emerging in the north: Zhongshan 中山, active from 414 to 295.
Of all states, Qin proved to be the strongest. In 221, all the Six States were defeated, additionally Shu and Ba, and the king of Qin proclaimed himself Emperor. The territory of the south that was inhabited by "babarians" until then, should be conquered.
Around this center of culturally advanced states we find lots of Non-Chinese "barbarian" tribes and peoples, namely the Xiongnu 匈奴 in the west and north - the shall play an important role during the Western Han Dynasty-, and the Dongyue 東越, and Pu 濮, Baiyue 百越 and Yangyue 揚粵 in the south. Compared to the Western Zhou and Spring and Autumn periods, the area north of the Yangtse has gradually become sinicized. For the first time, fortification walls against the nomad tribes in the north are erected by the states of Qin and Yan.

A term referring to the Non-Chinese inhabitants of the southeast and far south of China. They are thought to be Austro-Asiatic people, relatives to and ancestors of the modern Vietnamese. The southernmost Yue are also written Yue 粵, a character that is an alternative name of the city of Guangzhou and the province Guangdong. During the Spring and Autumn period (Chunqiu 春秋) the Yue in the area of Mount Guiji 會稽 (modern Shaoxing 紹興/Zhejiang) founded the kingdom of Yue 越 that was able to conquer the neighboring kingdom of Wu 吳 (also Non-Chinese, capital around modern Suzhou 蘇州/Jiangsu) but was vanquished by the state of Chu 楚 in 306. Yue people settling the north of modern Jiangsu were called Yang-Yue 揚越, the other many tribes were subsumed under the term Baiyue 百越 “The hundred Yue”, Yue tribes more to the west and south were called Oumin 甌閩 (living in Zhejiang, Fujian), Nanyue 南越 (Guangdong), Xiou 西甌 (Guangxi), and Luoyue 雒越 (Fujian). The territory of modern Fujian was conquered by Qin 秦 and later by Han 漢, but was never really controlled by the Chinese bureaucracy. The Yue chieftains Wuzhu 無諸 and Yao 搖 were kings of the area of Fujian in a realm called Ouluo 甌雒. The mountainous territory of modern Guangxi is inhabited by Non-Chinese tribes until today. At the begin of Han, Zhao Tuo 趙佗 founded the empire of Southern Yue (Nanyue 南越) in the area of Guangdong that was autonomous from the Han court until 112 BC. Emperor Han Wudi 漢武帝 conquered these areas as well as the north of modern Vietnam (Chinese Yuenan 越南, “The South of the Yue”) and installed Chinese commanderies (jun 郡). Although many Yue tribes still roamed the now unified territory of China, and appear in the historical sources until the end of Han, there are only few Yue people left in China today (e.g. Palyu “Lai”, Bugan “Hualuo or Huazu”, Bit, Bulang, Hu, Kemu, Khuen, Wa etc.). Their main heritage is northern Vietnam, an area that was settled by the Yue when they withdrew from the Chinese pressure.

The History books for school children distributed by the Vietnam National Education
Publishing House have no such myths. I am supporting this kind of practice.

If I were assigned to do the job, I eliminate all BaiYue related stories or historic events.
If I were the government, I do not allow the old books to be published. They are stored in libraries.
The word BaiYue is the illegal and immoral word. The Vietnam teachers teach in school that it is
a word that is out of date in case somone asking.

The following is my work on the poem. I hope the Chinese members give me a hand.

The Tang dynasty famous poet Du Fu traveled Qin Huai (now is Nan Jing), heard a female singer singing the song “The flowers in the back yard of the Jade village.” This song’s melody was very melancholy, the sound of a person who lost his country. Post-Chen king lived a long and deep passive live in the entertainment of sad music, ultimately lost his nation. Although Chen dynasty has long gone, this kind of melancholy music was still passing on. Hearing the song by a female singer, Du Fu was very upset, saying in his poem that the ignorant singer did not know the shame of being without a country while she was singing this song, the music of a lost nation. In fact, this was an excuse to hide his true criticism against the late Tang dynasty society. The officials were living a passive live in alcoholic and entertainment with women. The Tang was following the track of the Chen society. Carrying the concern about the fate of the nation, this poem of Du Fu had a great effect/impact on people of Qin Huai when the national political center in Jin Ling (KimLa(ng) was moving toward Chang An.

泊秦淮
唐杜牧

煙籠寒水月籠沙
夜泊秦淮近酒家
商女不知亡國恨
隔江猶唱後庭花

Anchored in Qin Huai
by Du Fu in the Tang dynasty

The cold water inside the cage of smoke, the sand inside the cage of moonlight.
I anchored my boat for the night on Qin Huai water near a restaurant.
The female singer is ignorant of the hatred of losing one’s nation.
She is still singing above the water the song of “the flowers in the back yard of the Jade village.”

Uh.. "Yue pain". Li-zu, Zhuang-zu etc. felt this pain? No?
Another version of Yue pain is the feeling of... (ok you know the reaction of some Cantonese toward nguoiVietchanhtong in the other thread)


Yeah, that kind of political movement is possible. To destroy all resources and wait till a few generations, the things just destroyed would be forgotten.

Well, better post in that thread instead.




What I think:
actually no mentions about "Jade village"
亡國 : collapsing country
隔江 : in the other side of the river
商女: ???

Like cultural revolution? should this be a proposal?

I never hear a Vietnamese propose a project to destroy his/her myth of origin. Sure, I am not descendant of Huang Di. But if TrueViet is really True, have you heard any Vietnamese propose a policy to destruct Con Rong Chau Tien, and you may know who were Rong and Tien? The Vietnamese recognizes those myths, and respect for them, not want to destroy like you, though.

Why do not you destroy your myths of origin prior to recommend others? Do it for your culture first.

Anyway, next year I will continue.

My emotion towards Bai Yue filled with sad and sorrow. This Bai Yue did not come to my attention lately and my first time of hearing the Bai Yue was 2 years even though it was a little doubt. So I understand that how the Chinese in the past invaded the Bai Yue and rationalized their conquest and converted tribes and villages into Chinese civilization. The belief of unifying Chinese as the Han seemed to me as irrational, just as the Bai Yue.

Mr. Cam, the Chinese unified together, although different backgrounds, for common good, a good name for them, the Han Chinese. Why can't we do the same to the Yue? They attacked me with ambigous arguments and irrational beliefs, they think me promoting to any political attention, but the recent origin recognition. I don't think they are successful, but I am not and they are scared. Look at China, in the past, people immigrated out of China and tried to find a good living in Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Europe, etc.. and especially USA the most. So do you think the Han Chinese are successful at controlling their Han Chinese population?

By the way, I support your opinions a lot and admired your knowledge.

The poet is Du Mu, not Du Fu. The song was "Jade trees and flowers in the backyard garden", written by Chen Shubao (Houzhu, 'last emperor') of the Chen dynasty, the last of the Southern Dynasties in the Age of Fragmentation. The music was extremely sad, and a traditional Confucian belief was that only decadent and corrupt countries liked sad songs. Because Chen Shubao misruled his country and had to surrender to a Sui invasion in 589, this song became a classic example in Chinese culture of "the songs of a decadent and declining country". Du Mu wrote this poem upon hearing professional songstresses performing the song in the restaurants along the Qinhuai River, which runs south of Nanjing. Nanjing was the capital of the Chen dynasty, and remained very prosperous in the Tang.

My ancestors were from an area that was once the state of Wu, the great rival of the state of Yue. Wu was finally destroyed by Yue. Does that mean that I should hate Vietnamese for being descendants of those who conquered the land of my ancestors? That is just how pointless it is to take sides in quarrels that are thousands of years old.

If you want to blame anyone, blame Qin Shihuang and Han Wudi. They were the ones who pushed the borders of the Chinese empire way down south. I don't try to "rationalize" such conquests. It's simple ambition, just like the gradual Vietnamese annexation of Champa and the Khmer in the Mekong Delta more than a thousand years later, and the Vietnamese attempt to annex Cambodia in the early 19th century. The Vietnamese tried to convert the Cham and Khmer to 'Vietnamese civilization' too, which was essentially Confucian civilization. The irony of it!

nguoiVietchanhtong, just as you are filled with sorrow for the ancient Yue, there are Cham both in Vietnam and overseas who are filled with sorrow for the ancient Cham civilization. Every big country in the world grew by eating smaller countries. Let us both stand at the graveyard of extinct ancient civilizations and weep. What else can be done?

"Converted"? Let it be. Hui can't change to Han.
Also, "Bai Yue" might be comparable to "American Indian". The common identity is what foreigners set to them.

See how many tribes there are in South China. Some of them are even composed by many "sub-identities".
Actually if a tribe was below another common identity, they would register as the common identity rather than making a new one. 26 ethnicities of Yunnan: I want to know how you could unite them.

As I said, there are some people who become extremists when you claim them, can't rely on their arguments. More than what you expect for forcing others' religion.

Diaspora. It's not because they don't want to be Han Chinese. Economical reason, not very strange. Bad guys might be a reason, but in every race there exist.

Holds for everybody with surname 吳/Ngô?

One sentence: before seeing what others did, see yours first.

OK. (crying for ancient Wu state)

I am not sure whether there is such thing like that.
I think, that in the past, the Vietnamese kings was merely trying to expand their kingdoms,
in the meanwhile, careless about the lives of people let alone the people of other groups.
In that aspect, ZhaoTuo may be a better king?

Thank you for your help on Du Mu and his poem.

"Vietnamese considered the neighbors as uncivilized and tried to 'civilize' them". I'm sure this can be found somewhere.

EDIT: here is one of them: http://www.mongabay.com/reference/country_...ia/HISTORY.html

Also I read somewhere of Khmer Krom organization site or wherever, there were some Khmers forced to change name into Sino-Vietnamese, or something like that.

Wu was also Yue ethnically.
But it is rather impractical polititcally to take sides in quarrels that are thousands of years old, unless you are a historian.
Champa attacked Vietnam first. And Vietnam needs to extend farther from China because of the threat. The motive is rather different from that of Qin Shihuang and Han Wudi. Even now, it is still 1/15 the size of China, and the threat is no more less, which gives it a security dimension in joining ASEAN, and making friends with others farther.
Dai Viet embrace much of the Cham culture, unlike the Huaxia of the Bai Yue.
Manner of annexion aside, I agree that bigger fish eat smaller fish, and that's the nature of history and humanity. That is why I'd rather not beat a dead horse. I only want to explain NguoiVietChanhTong's feeling, not advocating it, as he seemed withdrawn to silence in the face of attack.

Argument still holds for Khmers. It's actually even a "better" example than Bai Yue.

I feel like there are some mourning of Khmer Krom.
About them: www.khmerkrom.net www.khmerkrom.org (well, though you might not find anything about what I just said)

Bai Yue who retreated to mountains preserved their cultures, and arguably the culturally-converted Bai Yue were their own fault.

About khmer Krom, or Thu?y Cha^n La.p (Shui Chenla), the region was a sparcely populated huge swamp that Central Vietnamese came to transform, rather than taking good land from a huge Khmer population. But when the Vietnamese governed Kampuchia proper, it evoked a rebellion. The rule couldn't have been good. Even with the Cham, there must be a degree of oppression, for if not, the Cham would not have sought refuge in Kampuchia. I am not kind to chauvinistic Vietnamese sentiment towards its past relations with the Cham and the Khmer, when I speak out about Bai Yue treatment in the defense of NguoiVietChanhTong. But Vietnamese treatment of these people did not result in rebellions where at times 100 thousand heads were rolled in suppression and punishment efforts, as the one during Tang dynasty in Guizhou and Guangxi. Yun noted that Vietnamese society is Confucian. Yes, and I thought he associated that with Vietnamese expansion. True there too. But the different in degree is rather pronounced under the surface, and that reflects in how we treat the defeated.
The Cham who opted to live separately (and they don't have to go to mountains to do so in fear of physically harm) maintain their authentic culture, as the existing Bai Yue peoples of China, but Cham culture also enter mainstream Dai Viet culture, indeed encouraged and even adopted by as early as the Ly (Li) kings after their victories against the Cham. When Champa finally fell, at the capital Hue, a temple was erected to honour their kings. We don't go around digging graves of kings of defeated peoples, Feng Shui or not.

I did not intend to refer to central Vietnam, I actually wanted to state about the Mekong River Delta, I'm sure that was not a bad land to live, there lies Sai Gon, or Ho Chi Minh city.

EDIT: http://www.angkor-planet.com/UK-hase.html
Actually Water Chen La was more populated and richer. (quite logical for the condition of Land Chen La in highlands). I think any comment that Water Chen La was nothing prosperous is like to say that attack of Viet Nam was not serious in effect to Khmer Krom.

Some questions: actually did Chinese accepted nothing cultural from the Bai Yue?
>>Edit: I think I read somewhere that the 12 Chinese Zodiacs was from Tai.
And actually did any victorious state dig up defeated kingdom's leaders' tomb?

OK. By the way I would like to know about the Tang-age genocide(?).

It is difficult to see whether a group of people standing up for their own independence because of
their being well oppressed or their unability to do so.

Someone said that ZhaoTuo was very kind to the ancient Vietnamese, so that they love ZhaoTuo
as their own king. Someone else say that at that time, the ancient Vietnamese were not capable
of raisnig rebellion against their oppressors.

You say that the Zhuang people withdrawing to the highland for they were oppressed to much.
Someone say that the Zhuang had a good way to protect themselves while they retain their culture
rather than doing rebellion against the China emperors.

You say that the Vietnam kings were kind enough to the Champa and Khmer so that they did not
rebell. Someone may say that the defeated Champa and Khmer did not have the capability to do so.

Someone say that the Tibetan are well treated by the China government. Someone else say that
the Tibetan are smart in not fighting against the China government.

I am not good enough to offer a measurement for how good a kingdom or a government is to its
people so that its people do not want to fight it.
Neither am I good enough to see typical or common reasons all groups of oppressed people do not
rebell against their oppressors.

I admitted the oppression and suffering of Champa that was brought by the Vietnamese, for how long now, 200 years at most. What about China.

I only want to understand the past as fully as possible. If the Southern Han had a choice for themselves, a Han or a Yue, the ethnical determination is up to them. I don't mind if they all choose to be Han and hate the Vietnamese. So far as I know of, they never expose to this kind of history and their only choice was to choose to be a Han. No intention of hatred in this forum please, just only to gain knowledge.

I think you can easily source the records for what the Minh/Ming had did in Vietnamese. Greate achievement and should be supprised!

Try "Lam Son Thuc Luc" and "Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu".



Champa and Thuy Chan Lap now are parts of VN, it should be considered internal problem more than 200 years ago. If they ask you these VNese internal problem, ask them Tibet and East Turkistan.

I read about it in The Birth of Vietnam by Keith Weller Taylor. I just now looked for it, but couldn't locate it yet. It should be towards the end of the book, dealing with the Tang Dynasty period, using no other than Chinese accounts.

All I know of is the old story of 伍子胥列传 digging up his former king and beat the corpse.
When I was a kid, there were more than one opera theater which played the 伍子胥 story
on the stage from his family strategy to his total victory (without the digging grave episode).

You should pay more attention in reading historical records, before pronouncing the NanYue kingdom, ZhouTou invited all Han officials to attend a meeting, then he killed all these Han officials of Qin and made the Yue natives as officials.

Regards,

TTA

People should start making a habit of providing sources when making claims That way others can judge the validity and reliability of the sources for themselves.

In doing so, ZhaoTuo established his desired cabinet, rather than showing his love to the Yue natives.
In the politic field, you appear to be too naive.

You come you conclude my point very soon!

In this post, I use the "Yue natives" with the meanings of "the local people in mordern GuangDong area"
which does not include the ancient Vietnamese.
You may not understand fully the term "Yue natives" you use, which is unrelated to my post about how
ZhaoTuo treated the ancient Vietnamese.

That is the point I try to warn you not to misuse or abuse the word BaiYue or Yue.

What about the Yue? I don't see anything dangerous of understanding my own Vietnamese culture and its root. Of course, the local people of Guangdong today cannot be included with ancient Vietnamese. YOu have to say this "the local of ancient Guangdong people were related to the ancient Vietnamese." The point of this topic is that the Han Chinese in Guangdong area was heavily sinized both genetically and culturally. Nothing is wrong with that.

So, how can you know the ancient Vietnamese were not included in the Yue native? You lived together with them?

You are not my grandma to give me that order. Are you being charge of something, so you has confidence to command people?


Regards,

TTA

1- ZhaoTuo established his court or cabinet prior to his rebellion against the Qin, and
far prior to his invasion of ancient Vietnam and ancient YunNan that belonged to the Qin.
Therefore, my "Yue natives" were purely ancient GuangDong people, excluding ancient
Vietnamese and ancient Zhuang. Your "Yue native" includes the ancient Vietnamese the
way you like, regardless that the Cantonese are distinct from the Vietnamese. Do you
really think that the ancient Cantonese were as the same as the ancient Vietnamese
and the ancient Zhuang? Do you think that the Zhuang and the Vietnamese started to
build their own identities far away form the Cantonese after the time of ZhaoTuo?

2- I do not give you any order or command. Any person can give you a warning, even
a little child, such as, "Stop, or the oncoming car may hit you."

To NguoiVietChanhTong:
Even if the Vietnamese is related to the Cantonese up to some degree, there is no necessity
to combine or group two distinct ethnic groups under a single name. We have better way
of telling them apart in our communication. The above story of ZhaoTuo illustrated very well
that the word Yue or BaiYue is misused, and that makes the speaker confused himself.

Do you know the original boundary of Hung king in ancient Vietnamese? some of Guangdong was part of it. What is so confusing of Bai Yue? Ask me and I will answer you.
For the Han Chinese, the Bai Yue people were the native people from South China.
For me, the Bai Yue people were the native people from South China who made living out of cultivation and lived on flat lands.

I know these Vietnamese legends well enough to tell which versions or what details are new invention.

I also know that the legends are abused by the BaiYueism founders that the BaiYue boundary was up to
the DongTing Lake area, including mordern GuangDong, FuJian, GuangXi, YunNan and North Vietnam.

I also know that the legends are used by the current Vietnamese government that the boundary of the
Hung kings was far within the mordern boundary, excluding even the north Vietnam highlands.

About the words BaiYue or Yue, you like to use it the way you like, confusing yourself, and having hard
time communicating to others. To me, BaiYue has nothing to do with the mordern Vietnamese. I have no
difficulty in communication to others talking about Vietnamese History the time of ZhaoTuo without using
these words.

I partly disagree with you on that part, "the Yue had nothing to do with modern Vietnamese". Some are related and some are not. We are talking about the related part and you are telling use about "some are not". It's just you who confuse the most.

Yue is the word given by the Huaxia people to peoples in Southeastern China that they ran into. This loose definition fit the broader area of geographical Southeast Asia (as opposed to the political one), and includes, besides Southeast China, also Southwest China, political Southeast Asia, Northeast India, the Pacific islands, and Madagascar. The people spoke/speak Austronesian, Tai-Kadai, Austroasiatic, and Hmong-Mien languages. These languages are considered by present linguists to be related.
So, not only are the minorities in Vietnam Yue, besides the Jing, but also peoples of the above mentioned areas.

Wow, since when does the term "Yue" include northeast India, Pacific Islands, Madagascar, or anything outside of southern China for that matter?

What are your sources for claiming that the lunar calendar/lunar new year was an invention originating from Southern China and Vietnam? This is as baseless as your claim that Confucius was a Southerner that originated from the Yangtze River region (which you still have provided no sources for).

well, thats a bad example. i honestly can't distinguish between cantonese and fujianese but i've noticed inland southerners like from Jiangxi and Hunan don't have the austroasiatic/austronesian look that cantonese/fujianese have

all i'm arguing is that the umbrella term of Southern han is not effective since the history of the Chinese colonization in the south is not uniform and didn't happen in one fell swoop.

some parts of southern China were sparsely populated by aboriginals while others had dense populations

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as far as my two cents regarding the idea that vietnamese are a lost Han group: impossible, linguistics alone would eliminate this idea. Han Chinese are a diverse group but all speak Sinitic languages while vietnamese is a mon khmer language

On the Vietnamese 'civilizing mission' in mainland Southeast Asia in the early 19th century, may I refer you to my past essay here: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3196

That's the Yue=Austronesians theory. Like2learn supported it.



In fact that is the one thing that professional historians should not do. It impairs their objectivity and that of those who read their work. But there are too many nationalistic historians around, unfortunately.

Since Yue is poorly defined, it is hard to say whether the Austric speaking world is outside of its scope. In any case, there wasn't an Austric country to revive.

Historians should be more objective than anyone else, absolutely; my bad.
But even they must draw conclusions from gathered facts. History is not just a list of occurences, but an explanation of the chronology. Thereby lies a degree of subjectivity. But I get your point, and essentially agree.

You said, 'That is just how pointless it is to take sides in quarrels that are thousands of years old."
I am not sure I agree. Would a Chinese not have an opinion about something important that happened to them as a people thousands of years ago, let's say Qin versus Chu, or Zhou versus Shang? Choosing an opinion is taking sides, and arguing one's position amounts to disputes, and borders quarreling.

Pan-Vietism is more like Pan-Gaelicism, even worse -- we know what a Gaelic is, who knows exactly what is a Yue? What's the likelihood of merging Ireland, Wales, Scotland, and Bretagne together? Bear in mind the Irish don't even want a UNIFYING Ireland due to different local traditions and religions.

Mr. Cam, Viet's southward expansion actually had next to nothing to do with China (with perhaps the exception of expansionism ideology).

Trinh-Nguyen conflict was the root cause of the Cham's eventual destruction. Later Le, Tran, Ly, Former Le, and Dinh all fought Champa, but their goals were limited, unlike the Nguyen lords.

Totally agree.

Hi metronomad, first time we cross path. Glad to have you in the forum. Please call me Ca?m, and help me feel comfortable.
You have a point in the expansionist ideology, though there seems to be a kinder, gentler application with us. Someone here said in a different forum, "once oppressed, will oppress." There is truth in that, yet it tends to forfeit the right of the former to denounce the latter of the initial crime; also a bit simplistic.

And yes, Nguyen Hoang has to be banned to the frontier by Trinh Kiem, and the former needs a place to survive. He was talented, and that bode ill for the Cham. But Le Thanh Tong had weakened the latter to the point of non-contention. Champa was powerful, and lost its power only gradually. The previous dynasties were only able to do what Che Bong Nga did to Thang Long, but not what Le Thanh Tong did to Champa, or the Nguyen did to Kampuchia or Tran Ninh in present Laos.

The theory was Confucian LEARNT from a Yue, because there were some Vietnamese folk songs and proverbs (Ca dao, tục ngữ) that used the word "Nho/nhu" (Pinyin Ru) that allegedly existed before Confucian. I don't take this theory seriously, I won't defend it.

nguoiVietchanhtong claimed that Confucius actually came from the Yangtze area, in "Luo" country here in this post:

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...dpost&p=4719100

It's pretty unambiguous that he meant Confucius was born, as well as being ethnically, from the Yangtze "Luo" (which I'm assuming he means Luo Yue) country.

I add some Vietnamese notes on the red color area for Vietnamese to refer it easier.

Thanks

Hi :-)

The reason I used Mr. wasn't because I was being overly formal, rather I didn't know your age/generation and I didn't want to be disrespectful.

I'm gonna call you bác from now on :-)

Point taken.



Indeed. Le Thanh Tong's conquest and dividingChampa into 3 separated princedoms permanently weakened these countries. My point though was that the Champan kingdoms could have survived had The Nguyen Lords not having had to push South to relieve themselves from Trinh's pressure. The Nguyen Lords' southward conquest was relentless, and didn't end with just the Chams.





Oh :-) Then I don't know. Perhaps he's read some theory that was even more fringed than the one I did.