I've heard it had cultural impact...

Go to ask Manchus who conquered that area and gave them to R.O.C.

Yeah, that was the trouble between Wu and Chu. Any "non-Yue" story like that?


Woww.... how do you distinguish "Yue" and Han just from those records? Those could be just other Hans Zhao Tuo brought with.


That was an even wilder generalization. Qiang-zu 羌族 would include South China, Tibet, North India, Northern part of Southeast Asia.

"Austroasiatic/Austronesian look"? Well, Fujianese and Cantonese face are very very easily distinguished from Indonesian. Not just skin. It's much harder to distinguish Fujianese and Cantonese (or even nearly impossible), but I can separate "light-skinned Malays" from them easily.
If you say the look of skin darkness, use Hong Kong Cantonese or Taipei Han Taiwanese.
Some Hong Kongers can distinguish some Mainlanders from skin.
Also, don't use average Vietnamese or Zhuang as "Austroasiatic/Austronesian look" because it's far from average Austroasiatic/nesians.

what do you mean?

regards,

TTA

Sorry, I just edited it. I meant those could be just other Hans Zhao Tuo brought with.

Apart from massacring and raping, the Ming destroyed all Vietnamese cultural heritage of the LY and TRAN dynasties. Many of valuable heritages before the Ming invasion, now their names can be found only in the history records. Books were burned or taken to Yanjing. All intetellectual people and skilled men were forced to live in Yanjing. Zhangfu, a Ming general, everytime he captured a Vietnamese rebel, he ate the rebel's liver. Need not to mention about Ming's exploitation of resource and taxation. The ways that the Ming did in Vietnam were very similar to what you had agreed with trueViet to destroy all Vietnamese old history records, so that the younger generations can be enforced to forget their roots. 600 years before and now, the ways of thought have been never changed.



2007 and the following 20 years could be the years for Vietnamese to remember the Ming's invasion 600 years before (1407-1427), everyday you could read a short sentense in history records of the Ming occupation, men were massacred and cultural heritages were burned by the Ming troops at each moment passing.


Regards,

TTA

I'm 50; and my birthdate is on my profile (expecting tons of birthday presents) .

You are too young, and too unexperienced to understand me.

I have never intend to destroy any materials from the past.
On the contrary I treasure what history leave for human on earth.

However, censor are necessary the adult should do to the youth.

Please, re-read my words once more time to see between the lines.
I said: old books should be treasured in libraries alone,
so that anyone can search for what he or she need from the past,
and discourage those who want to abuse the historic materials.

I suggest that you do a study on censorship to get more experience in life.

you have experiences in censorship? but, anyway, it does not make me surpprised!

However, I wonder how could you pass the examination of censor when you define "Baiyue" is the" illegal and immoral word."

I do not need to pass the examination.
I am the one who imposes censorship upon others.
To be more acurate and more exact, every parent should put on his censorship responsibility.
I bet that you have not had any children yet?
That is the reason I said that you are too young and unexperienced, at least to be a parent.

You may confirm what I meant. I would really wonder if you NEED to pass the examination! , in my case, I have to take all examination if I apply for censor job.


Do not worry my business, I ban all adult-oriented in my PC.

But, when you mean we need censorship on the "BaiYue" word, do you mean the similarity between "BaiYue" and "adult content"? I can not understand your logic. Strange logic!



You said you lived in northern VN for 35 years and in the US for more than 20 years. In this case, of course, I must be younger than you, surely I do not like old!

How much do you want to bet?

Regards,

TTA

Looking at every tree and do not see the forest.
This is the way of saying when you read a post, you need to get the message, rather than every word.
I feel very boring to interpret my post into another post, for I may re-interpret it again and again.

Hi you all,

Nice to see you all again! My mingzi is 太 游 . Certainly it means : Great Journey. My ancestor was from Zhaoguo (including Zhaotuo) to Guangdong today over 2200 years before. Now I am living in Vietnam.

Is it a Great Journey of blood?

Long time no see, Zhang Taiyou. I foresee even more conflict arising among our Vietnamese members with your reappearance here

Thankstoall, I invite you to write your views about the Ming annexation of Vietnam in this new thread: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=9117

Hello the great traveler. I guess your name correctly.
Nice to see you here. You may realize that we have seen each other in other forums.
I am the one who is against the BaiYueism, and you have already known the reasons.
I think we will have fair chances here amoungst the Chinese friends rather than
being between the hostigeous Vietnamese fellows.

It's ok to express your ideas but supporting your ideas is another issue.

Good meeting you again, Du. Let's make these debate interesting, but enjoyable as well.
Nguye^~n-Tro.ng Ca?m

Hi Yun,

It is not a conflict between Vietnamese, but a conflict between Vietnamese view and Anti-Vietnamese view. Because we can not really know a member's ethnic by the name such as TrueVIet! Really she is VIetnamese? I can take a name such as "TrueChinese" to write something against Chinese, a very old tactic. As I already mentioned, I do not think TrueViet is Vietnamese, if you want, I can give a short analysis of my reasoning. But it is useless to such analysis. So, as Ca?m suggested we should judge on face value of one's point of view. I would not make such analysis and you should not call the conflict between me and TrueViet is between Vietnamese.




Thank for your invitation, but perhaps later.

Regards,

TTA

Vietnamese only

you are invited to this topic

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...&gopid=4780571&

OK. It is easier and simplier to state that way.
However, you should know that I have never said anything other than my anti-BaiYueism.
If you see my anti-BaiYueism is some kind of anti-Vietnamese, please, keept it for yourself.
However, you saying my viewpoint is Anti-Vietnamese is not accurate,
and the way you say may raise un-friendly issue here,
for you may think that I were Chinese.

It looks like a glitch in the system prevent this post from appearing. This is what I received as an email that generates automatically when a new post appears in a thread that I'm interested in:
Yun has just posted a reply to a topic that you have subscribed to
titled "Why are southern Han considered "Hanized" natives?".

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, a quotation from Jennifer Holmgren's MA thesis, "Chinese
Colonisation of Northern Vietnam" (1980):

Contemporary records of Chinese activities in Tongking during the first
six centuries of colonisation tell us more about the process of
Vietnamisation among Chinese families than they do about Sinicisation of the
Yueh. These records provide a tantalising glimpse of the process
whereby, over several centuries, a number of leading Chinese clans established
family interests in Tongking and gradually settled into, helped modify,
and were finally absorbed into the social, economic, and political
environment in northern Vietnam. The ultimate result of this process was
the emergence of a ruling Sino-Vietnamese elite, the social and economic
decolonisation of the far south, and the abortive attempt in the sixth
century to establish political independence from the north. The pattern
of this process is already shown at the end of the Later Han, with the
rise of Shih Hsieh and the attempt by his family to resist political
encroachment from the north after his death.

From the Trung rebellion in the first century to the Ly rebellion in
the sixth, Chinese dynastic records reveal an alternating pattern of
political dependence on and semi-independence from northen power. With
time, the periods of dependence gradually decrease in length while those
characterised by semi-independent rule become longer. This trend in
Tongking sets the stage for revolt by the Ly family in the middle of the
sixth century and, finally, separation from China in the tenth century.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what Keith Taylor said in his book The Birth of Vietnam, essentially, and I agree with it.

It is hypothesis in political view, or historical one.
A nation is better defined in political view.
An ethnic group is best defined in cultural view.
The optional views that are not much suitable are: political, racial or DNA, historical, etc.
For example, Han as an ethnic group can be defined only in cultural view, and not in others.

Depending on the goal, one can select any path that is best proper.

Not a glitch - I later moved it to form a thread on its own at Age of Fragmentation.

"The Hans living in the Yangzi River valley are of middle, or mixed type
between the northern and southern Hans, but are more like the northern.
AS we know, the Han originated from the Huaxia tribe-group which formed
during the 21st-8th Century B.C. in the middle and lower reaches of Yellow River,
When the Huaxia developed and spread to all directions, it absorbed many other
ethnic groups, either partially or fully, through the latter’s announcement of
changing into Han on their own accord, or sometimes by ruler’s order, In fact, themajor blood of today’s local Hans in many border areas of China, such as Hainan,
Guangdong, Guangxi, Fujian. Northeast China. etc. came from the local ancient
ethnic groups. but not Huaxia"

So the people were the local groups and later changed into Han. I wonder why.
http://journeyofman.info/index.php?showtopic=504

They did not "later changed into Han."
They all togerther formed the Han ethnic during millenium.
The same with all ethnic groups today in the world.
No exception with the Viet.
Noboy denies the Han blood in the Viet.
However, Han and Viet are distinct ethnic.
The same between Viet and Muong.

Local groups were merely a moment, but Han is the time.
BaiYue was merely a moment, but Viet is the time.

S. Robert Ramsey, "The Languages of China"

Not only Hakka, Min and Cantonese were also southern origin primarily.
In page 233 of that book " One ethnographer has estimated that at least
60 percent of the Cantonese people must be descened from an aboritinal
Tai-speaking population. "

p. 102: What is unusual about the Cantonese vowels -- at least for a
Chinese dialect -- is that they can be distinctively long (again this
is remarkably like pronunciation in the Tai languages of South China).

p. 233: The Tai have long played a large and shadowy role on the edge
of the Sinitic world. Around the beginning of the first millennium BC
the were ensconced in the rice-growing areas of the Yangtze Valley;
and, according to some authorities, many of the early Southern states
mentioned in Chinese history -- including that of Wu, ... near modern
Shanghai, and Yue, dominating the area on the South China coast --
were actually Tai kindoms. As these kingdoms were Sinified and
gradually swallowed up by expanding Chinese civilization, most of the
local Tai peoples became Chinese themselves through cultural and
linguistic assimilation. One ethnographer has estimated that at least
60 percent of the Cantonese people must be descended from an
aboriginal Tai-speaking population.

1. Yes, that's genetic test. But the possibility genetic development/selection? Or weird result because of not enough genes taken into consideration?
2. Ancient Chinese might have long-short distinction e.g. 麻 vs 魔 (precisely the same in Sino-Xenic loans).
But the "short a" in Cantonese actually came from "i", which became "lower a" (similar to "e" in "er") which later pronounced in the same height as "ordinary a".
3. Yes, even some ancient Chinese word came from Tai. The Tiangan (heavenly stem) and Dizhi (earthly branch) are even claimed came from Tai.

Which term is more inclusive? Tai or Yue? If Tai is used then Ba & Shu people in Sichuan are also included. If Yue is used then non-chinese will include Tai (people in Yunnan & Sichuan) and Yue (people in southern coastal).

Goodness, nguoivietchanhtong is a shame to Vietnamese people

Please don't attack him on a personal level without at least giving your reasons for doing so. I don't agree with nguoivietchanhtong's views but I do not consider him a shame to anyone. Anyway, why do you think you represent the Vietnamese people?

I would say just the min and cantonese because the hakka came down around the later sung dynasty.

A 'significant percentage' of min and cantonese who has been there for 2000 years have intermarried with the local tai in the past, but the recent han migrants from the north bring in han genes. So they have more han genes than tai genes and not really called 'sinicised natives'. Maybe a very small minority are still 'sinicised natives' but the overwhelming numbers of recent han chinese will certainly intermarry them in due course in the next few hundred years ?

But the 'bai yue' here are not of vietnamese blood but zhuang / tai blood. Vietnamese origin is still debatable and complex.

So I hope that this conclusion should close this thread unless somebody disagree with me.

It was under direct administration of china. Do you consider tibet, xinjiang a protectorate rather than a province in present day china ? Malacca in malaysia was a protectorate during ming dynasty, but it was never part of any map of china.

JiaoZhi was in the land, in the map of China.
The governor of JiaoZhi was a China officer, or a Mandarin.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=11178

Since that thread is closed, those who want to continue can continue here. Moderator, please be more open-minded for discussions.
There were some findings in the wikipedia that were not addressed here.

You just left out the Fujian and Hainan...and might be Hunan

Actually, not all southern chinese are of "yue" origin. They are actually a mix between han-chinese and yue. Over the course of history, esp. during age of fragmentation/ Tang dynasty/5 dynasties period, there was a series of migration of han-chinese from the north to the south. All these had helped to make up what southern-chinese are today.

Southern Chinese are predominantly of Han origins and the presence of Yue blood in Southern Chinese only make up a small percentage. The ancient population of Yue in southern China was largely outnumbered by Han Chinese ( from Central Plains ). The immigrants/refugees from Northern China into Southern China from the fall of Northern Song and the fall of Southern Song is estimated to be around 10 million. I'm HK Cantonese but my Ancestor Registry records that my ancestors were from Shanxi but fled south from the Jin Jurchens.

And you take that INDIVIDUAL to represent the majority of Vietnamese??? Go to Vietnam and ask the people there, how can they claim to be related to Cantonese while they theirselves always hate to be Han?

they can't be called the Han because their historical origin was part of the native Yue. I don't think Vietnamese hate the Cantonese people. Most Vietnamese eat Cantonese food and are friends with the Cantonese. Ask them if they think they are genetically mixed with the Chinese and they will tell you. I even know myself about it. No one is genetically pure. In terms of genetical closeness, the Cantonese are the best candidates.

Cantonese have part native Yue blood but it's very low as Han populations in Southern China had largely outnumbered the small Bai Yue populations. Cantonese are predominantly of Central Plains origins and are classified as Han. I don't think Cantonese are very close to Vietnamese. Pure Vietnamese look different to Cantonese. In terms of genetical closeness, look for southwestern ethnic minorities in China or other South-East Asian ethnic groups. Cantonese genes are disimilar to Vietnamese genes.

oh,plz not this propaganda again(cantonese came from ancient vietnamese) the cantonese 's orgin were from the north,there are many historical records can comfirm this.the cantonese language is also different from the native yues(as in your case,vietnamese).


Go ask any cantonese if their ancestor came from ancient viets,they would tell you otherwise. its just as ridicurlous as some chinese claim ancient viets came from han-stock.

let's just solve this problem in a few lines
Cantonese = Han
Vietnamese = Yue
Han is different from Yue
Cantonese is different from Vietnamese

Peace out.

Yep. Agreed.

origin from the North. That's just the historical book. Let's discuss about the genetical book. If you blend in with the nationality, I don't think that will work.

Totally wrong.
Cantonese = Chinese
Yue = one of ancient Chinese
Zhuang is from Yue, but Zhuang is not Yue
Vietnamese not = Yue, or from Yue.

Yue is an ancient word with ancient meanings.
Vietnamese is not Chinese, or even Chinese related, or Yue related.

Who's settled around the Ca, Ma, and Red river's basin since the neolithic time? What name would you call them?

Those people were called Luo Yue. Zhuang are descendants from Ou Yue, but also Luo Yue, according to Jeffrey Barlow (he is on the Net). The Shui are thought as descendants from Luo Yue; they have an ancient system of writing. The Luo Yue were subsequently called Li, as the Hainanese, whereas the Ou Yue were called Lao.
I guess when the Australoid element becomes substantial, the Chinese stopped using the word Yue to indicate these Australoid-Mongoloid admixted peoples (or generalized Mongoloid -as opposed to specialized Mongoloid peoples- ) , speaking Austronesian and Austroasiatic languages, and spread from north of Shanghai to Indonesia, and from Taiwan to Zchewan.

Yue is an ambiguous term. It's ambiguous because it came from generalization.
The above is one of the senses.
The strict sense goes for how it was originally used: the Yue state of around modern Shanghai.
One generalized sense of Yue includes most of the Southern Minorities in China.
The most generalized still accepted widely is to Vietnam.
Some can include Cantonese and Zhejiangese "Yue" but that is not quite relevant since the naming is late and after all it's by the geography, just like the term "Texan". (which was derived from the ancient dwellers' name).

I'm not sure you're totally consistent in one post.

Oh, you are all wrong. There aren't Pan-Yue nationalists wanting to break two Vietnam's provinces Guangxi and Guangdong (before Wu Emperor Sun Hao seperated Guangzhou from Jiaozhou in 264) to form a new "Nanyue". Splitting is always a Chinese tradition!

As a matter of fact, most Cantonese didn't want to recall their origin of NanYue. I think they should be proud to be NanYue men because NanYue blood is always in them now.

Baseless laughable scenerio advocated by internet forum trolls,Guangxi and Guangdong were never part of modern day nation named Vietnam.

Great majority Cantonese-Chinese are NORTERN Han heritage.

Nan Yue never had any relation to modern day Vietnam,it's time to educate some ignorant individuals of their fantasy out of despise for their true indigenous Au Lac origin.

before u accuse others of being baseless, please inspect your own points:

1. Guangxi and Guangdong were never part of modern day nation named Vietnam. True

2. Great majority Cantonese-Chinese are NORTERN Han heritage. Contestable

3. Nan Yue never had any relation to modern day Vietnam,it's time to educate some ignorant individuals of their fantasy out of despise for their true indigenous Au Lac origin. the northern part of Vietnam was part of Nan Yue kingdom of Zhao Tuo, and also part of China for nearly 1000 years, there is a good amount of Chinese blood in the Vietnamese as well as the Ou and Luo Yues'

sorry pal,but none of my cantonese friends consider themselves being nanyue origin.they calls themsleves han chinese. thats it.