Back on the historical topic, people.

We already have a thread on 'perceived threats to China' in the Current Affairs side. You can go there if you want to.

Let's sit down to a bowl of pho noodle soup and talk peace and mutual respect instead

Sorry Yun, I felt compelled to respond to this:

With these many countries (Taiwan provinces not included) up against the PRC, you are saying the PRC is spending much more than how much it needs to?

What kind of logic is that?

You are right. Southern Chinese and Northern Chinese have their separate identities and it's normal as mixed people in the US. In fact, South Chinese (especially two Guangs) has contributed much to Chinese culture throught out China history and should be respectful by Northern Chinese. Sometimes I think China is an union rather than a country like Korea or Japan (because of Chinese people differences).

It's not easy to recognize it because it was in the Chinese's unconsious. Former Taiwanese President Lee Teng Hui once suggested that China should be a union rather than a multi-provinced country. Historically, China is also an union of many states (Chou, Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Five Dynasties) with their cultural identies. It maybe a reason for Lee's statement.

Isn't a "State" also a "Union"?
The Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentations are not Unions.

Btw, I don't think any Chinese thinks that there is a single group called "Southern Chinese" (there are Cantonese, Hakka, Fujianese, etc.). There are many groups under "Chinese".

Northern Chinese, southern Chinese, northern Vietnamese, southern Vietnamese, what's the difference?

They are just Chinese and Vietnamese.

Northern Vietnamese and Southern Vietnamese are different from 1954 to 1975,
for they are in different societies.
After 1975, some Southern Vietnamse took refugee abroad, then they are different
from Vietnamese in Vietnam mainland.

In general, the Vietnamese abroad think that the Vietnamese in the mainland are
communists, but they are just simple Vietnamese instead.

In general not every oversea Vietnamese would think Vietnamese in Vietnamese are communists except for those cardres of the Communist Party. You are way over geneneralizing in your assertion TV!

Why don't the Vietnamese nationalists target the native Taiwanese instead of us Cantonese? Some Taiwanese are more proud of their Yue roots instead of Han.

I don't think the Vietnamese Nationalists want to have something to do with any Chinese,
let alone the Cantonese.
I guess some Cantonese who have lived in Vietnam want to claim Canton as ancient Vietnam
capital city at the time of ZhaoTuo, and they want to believe that ancient Yue are ancestors
of both Vietnamese and Cantonese. In brief they may be Cantonese racists rather than Viet's.

... A few ETHNIC Viet internet junkies propagated some sort of NON-EXISTENT so-called phantom " Canton Homeland " movement in cyberspace to irritate Chinese mistaken them for being Chinese-Cantonese living in Vietnam.

No culturally Chinese full blood Cantonese-Chinese in Vietnam ever regard themselves as assimulated Viets of Chinese origin,so DON'T fancy it.They consider as always Chinese first and formost,absolutely want close kinship with Chinese in mainland China,Hong Kong,and Taiwan.

Not really

My Taiwan-born sister in-law and Taiwan Hokkien-speaking Chinese friends DON'T EVER regard themselves related to so-called " Yue ",some of them probably fancy Japanese blood tie though.

ricecake's posts become more and more trite. Can't you see a flaw in your argument: Vietnamese desperately want Chinese blood, and they want to associate with Cantonese, but at the same time they assert that Catonese are Hanized Yue. This is laughable. Why can't you leave the Cantonese and Vietnamese in peace. I believe at least that the wisest course of action to take at the moment.
Nobody in China "is" proud of Yue, the same as nobody in Vietnam want to have anything to do with Khmer, but fact is that Southern Chinese do have southern barbarian blood in them (I'm not saying Northern Chinese don't) and Vietnamese have a great proportion of Khmer blood in them. Maybe we should start a Khmer history forum for Vietnamese.

"No culturally Chinese full blood Cantonese-Chinese in Vietnam ever regard themselves as assimulated Viets of Chinese origin,so DON'T fancy it"
Again this is a sweeping assertion: if this is indeed true then it's Cantonese's issue and may not applicable to other communities such as Teochew or Hokkien.

"I guess some Cantonese who have lived in Vietnam want to claim Canton as ancient Vietnam
capital city at the time of ZhaoTuo, and they want to believe that ancient Yue are ancestors
of both Vietnamese and Cantonese. In brief they may be Cantonese racists rather than Viet's"
This may occur to some pro-Yue scholars. Scholars are usually very concious of cultural heritage issue. But this could well be a hidden agenda: try to please some few Vietnamese like Ricecake who want Chinese blood

haiz why must there be division among sino-influenced people.

It is really amazing that some people here wants to deny any chinese blood in vietnamese after all the facts have been presented. Even now there are chinese men from Taiwan, Singapore and Malaysia marrying Vietnamese wives when they are from different countries. Won't the possibilities for intermarriage be higher when China and Vietnam were the same country for more than one thousand years (1200 years).


These are the facts

A portion of northern chinese have impure blood from the mongols, manchurians and other northern tribes.

A portion of southern chinese have impure blood from the tai-kadai people which were the original inhabitants of southern china.

I am not saying ALL but a portion.

Just like a portion of the chinese living in Singapore/Malaysia have malay blood and this community is called babas/nyonyas. It all started when Princess Hang Li Po contingent went to Malacca in 1400 and brought her group of men servants along.

The chinese male servants in Malacca do not find it repulsive to marry malay girls who are much darker than the vietnamese girls who are of fairer skin. Why then is intermarriage between vietnamese and chinese considered taboo and impossible to happen ?


Unless it is based on some biased racial hatred of some members here.

From my observations, if any intermarriages took place between Chinese/Vietnamese or Vietnamese/Khmer and vice versa, they would consider to be the Kinh (fully Vietnamese) after merely the 2nd generation. This is due to the identical social base value they share. Historically, Vietnam was an integral part of China for over 1,000 years; Vietnam possibly would not seceded from China if the Tang dynasty didn't falter thus China broken into pieces in the 10th century; Due to its distant location from the central gov't, Vietnam seized the opportunity to go on her own way ever since. If we remove all those highly charged and fervored nationalistic rhetorics (historically most often would be quite inaccurate and distorded way far from the truth ) then the differences would be merely superficial at best (just as one would compare the southerners to the northerners, etc.)!

for all i know, vietnamese girls are hot stuff here in singapore , even hotter than china ones

Don't get me wrong, please.
I do not deny the high probability that I have some Chinese blood.
I do not say that I want to have Chinese blood, for whatever reasons.
I did say that I am Muong, and also I did say that I may have Chinese blood in me.
I don't think there would be any wrong with that.
I am who I am, and as long as I fail to trace back to my anscestor, I believe in all possibilities.

Most Chinese members here don't want to concede that Yue blood are part of them. They considers Yue blood is barbarian element so they want to forget it. Is it right or wrong? I don't know but I believe Yue blood is not "terrible thing" to be refused. In fact, Chinese people are culturally but not physically related.

For me, NanYue is an independent country and must be included in Vietnam history. Zhao Tuo is a chinese like Van Xuan (542-547) Emperor Li Bi but he culturally contributed to Vietnam so that Vietnamese must avoid nationalism to accept this true. It is not wrong or bad but highten our culture. Vietnam are always open for all people from the world. Many Vietnam historicans such as Le Van Huu or Ngo Si Lien think so exception Ngo Thi Si (18th cen.). So why some Vietnamese don't want to or dislike Zhao Tuo. You should remember that all NanYue Kings tried their best to be unannexed to the Han Empire and their deed should be respectful like other Dai Viet Kings later

Yeah Baby, Vietnamese women are hot!

I guess I might have to check this out again within couple more weeks when I have to go back there for ....

Are there any Singarean folks wanna to meet me in Saigon in October?

To respond to your 3 statements above:

1- NanYue must be in Vietnam history as Qin, Han, Yuan, etc, Chinese dinasties,
and French, Japanese, and America, who have been in Vietnam historic events.
No more, and no less, and no matter how it is independent or not.

2- Some Vietnamese dislike ZhaoTuo, for they considere him as an invader to Vietnam.
I do not dislike him, for I don't think there has been a Vietnam nation at that time.

3- I do not respect historical rulers. To me, they were the past, unreachable by my acts.
I do not appreciate Vietnam Kings expanding Vietnam to the south, or the North Vietnamese
reuniting the nation by means of war. I don't consider such things like that as good deed.
The Vietnamese could have had better lives without their deed. To ZhaoTuo's unannexing
to the Han Empire, I don't think it was good deed to the ancient Vietnamese, either.

saigon? had just came back from hanoi not long ago and still recovering ..

maybe next time

TV:

It's ok for your to express your individual viewpoint but do not imply that you would speak for a group of Vietnamese. Among the Vietnamese, of course they have different opinion as well so people from other ethnic groups. Regarding Zhao Tuo, a few Vietnamese might consider him as one of their leaders who helped to reunite different Viet tribes and opposed the domination of the Han's court from the central plain. Before Zhao Tuo, An Duong Vuong (Shu Pan) also came from the North but very few Vietnamese would exclude An Duong Vuong (except TrueViet among the few, of course)! Another Vietnamese hero Ly Bi, also was a descendant from Chinese ancestry, so many others generals and leaders we might not know yet! History is certain event that already happened; whereas, you think it's good or not, it's already history and we're better to stick to the fact!

Don't cope out lah; there are many remedies to cure your fatigue and ...

I'd think Saigon is a better place with more things to do than Hanoi ...! From Singapore to Saigon merely 1.5 hours flight away ....! Wanna to rest or play, it's up to you eh!

Is lifezard looking for Vietnamese girls ?

Anyway, those 'not highly educated' Singaporean men traditionally go for Malaysian chinese women.

But in recent years, I see many matchmaking agencies specialising in vietnamese girls for singaporean and malaysian chinese usually for those who couldn't find local girls... I wonder why not Thai girls or burmese girls ?

I think one of the reasons is because vietnamese girls are of fairer skin than the malays/indians, religiously similar and the offspring looks very chinese.

I have seen 100% pure chinese and 100% pure malay marriages and their offspring are malay-like except that they have fairer skin than the typical malay.

Can anybody comment further ?

The vietnamese forget that Nam Viet is essentially a chinese ruled country. Just because it wasn't part of the Han dynasty doesn't mean it is vietnamese.

China was fragmented many times during the past few thousand years.
During the three kingdom era, vietnam was part of a chinese kingdom which is also not united.

Would you say Taiwan is not a chinese-ruled country now just because it is not part of China ?

We have been over the 'Was Nan Yue Vietnamese or Chinese' question many many times in the Asian History section, and it always ended in flaming. Can we just leave it alone here?

Otherwise this thread gets closed. I'm serious.

I don't recall any flaming there ... Anyway, since it is sensitive among some of the members here, I will (does this smilie mean shut up ?)

Maybe you weren't a member of CHF yet. Run a search for a member named VietGenes, and check out his quarrels with Warhead.

Here are my three answers to your reponses:

1. You are wrong because NanYue included legendary Au Lac Kingdom and fought against the Han Empire for its independence. Moreover, NanYue Kings treated Vietnamese well and most of NanYue people were Yue but not Han. That wasn't like other Chinese rulers from Han, Yuan... Are you OK?

2. What's your definition of a Vietnam nation at that time? I think we should consider ZhaoTuo as the first King of Vietnam because he contributed much to our nation like Chinese rulers Si Nhiep, Li Bon, Ho Quy Ly whose origin are from China.

3. You don't respect historical rulers. Why? If they (Vietnam Kings) didn't expand Vietnam to the south, you should be happy with a narrow Vietnam which China maybe clear it away from the world map at any time. This attitude to Vietnam history is very poor and one-sided. All Vietnamese now respect Nguyen rulers and their soutward expansion. Maybe you are an Vietnamese-American so you think of Vietnam Kings and Vietnam history so?

DaiViet: Did you not see my post? Leave the NanYue issue out of this thread please.

Why the same case in Taiwan?

For the skin fairness, maybe yes, but maybe no.

i ve never been to saigon.. hanoi did left me with a good impression however .. (no , not just the gals would it be too much if i expect more from saigon?



seriously, my preference is burmese girls over either thais or vietnamese gals (dun ask me the resaon) but i m not joking when i said viet girls are hot here .. many of my friends like them bcause they are sweet, fair (important for many chinese men here) and not as demanding as china girls..

as for your remarks that men here get vietnamese wife because they can't get locals , u are right to a certain point... for many of us, local wives are indeed a bridge too far ... but then, that does not mean viet wives are inferior in any respect .. many are educated and they learn the local languages pretty fast... more importantly, most are devoted to their new family.

my personal point of view.. perhaps u think differently?

Not really, Saigon to Hanoi would be like Shanghai to Bejing though, besides Saigonese would be considered to be more genuine to interact with (pls differentiate real Saigonese from other recent transplanters).



Actually in my personal view, one could find a better quality Viet lady easier than a quality Viet gentleman (a rare specie in Vietnam indeed now aday); I tend to joke to those Viet lady friends of mine that "I even have difficult time to find a good drinking partner so how could you expect to get a decent husband?"

I hope I will able to save a few days to visit other southern town (Can Tho, Rach Gia) during this coming trip ... otherwise I will have to return there again soon (in 2007 perhaps).

i ve never been to saigon.. hanoi did left me with a good impression however .. (no , not just the gals would it be too much if i expect more from saigon?



seriously, my preference is burmese girls over either thais or vietnamese gals (dun ask me the resaon) but i m not joking when i said viet girls are hot here .. many of my friends like them bcause they are sweet, fair (important for many chinese men here) and not as demanding as china girls..

as for your remarks that men here get vietnamese wife because they can't get locals , u are right to a certain point... for many of us, local wives are indeed a bridge too far ... but then, that does not mean viet wives are inferior in any respect .. many are educated and they learn the local languages pretty fast... more importantly, most are devoted to their new family.

my personal point of view.. perhaps u think differently?

Your point of view is the same as my point of view and also reflects a lot of Malaysian/Singaporean men point of view. Singaporean/malaysian girls are getting a 'bit' materialistic and dominating .....

Facial
-------

On the average, vietnamese girls are fairer than thai and burmese girls.

Religion
---------
Believe me, I have seen people from other faiths who won't even hold an incense to pay respect for our deceased ancestors or even step inside chinese temples. Religion is such a main barrier.

Festival
----------
Chinese new year is the biggest event for both Vietnamese and Chinese so assimilation is fast. Mooncake festival etc are also celebrated together.

Linguistic
----------
The reason why they learn the local languages very fast is because of common elements such as monosyllabic and tonality. The malays (polysyllabic and non-tonal) I have seen usually laugh (make fun) at chinese languages when they hear them due to these factors which is so foreign to their ears.

Comparison
-------------

The burmese and thai girls are also religiously and linguistically similar but are not culturally similar.
I also find the average burmese and thai girls to be of darker skin (I am not 100% certain cause I have not met enough of them) than the vietnamese girls.

What's wrong with Vietnamese guys ? Are they not hard working and family-oriented like the chinese ?

xng most thais are fair actually only slightly darker than c chinese.

some thai gals are indeed quite fair, but unless they have chinese blood, they still can be differentiated from the average chinese..

burmese girls are indeed darker in general, but not much, (somewhat nearer to skin colour of malays)

I have heard that the northern Thais (around chiengmai) are the 'purer' thais and thus, have fairer skin.
The southern Thais (around bangkok) seems to have mixed with the local khmers and have darker skin.

Look at the movie star Tony Jaa, he has typical malay skin color and looks.

many bangkokian thais inevitably are also fairer having been large thai/chinese intermarriage

actually, i m not sure what u mean by more genuine to interact with.. what i often hear is that saigin gals are more streetwise than their nothern counterparts



is rach gia a traditional khmer area? and is there still a significant khmer minority?

The Southern Vietnamese generally are considered to be more genuine, sincere, and happy-go-lucky than Vietnamese from Central or Northern region;l And real Saigonese are considered to be the "coolest" of all! In certain southern provinces like Tra-Vinh & Soc-Trang, there are still a large number of Khmer Kroms ethnic living there (the number is up around 500,000 people). I believe the current gov't in Vietnam are working harder to promote ethnic cultural heritage of certain minority groups; however, they seem to do so mostly to promote the tourism industry though!

i have heard that southern vietnam (saigon and beyond) used to sort of frontier region for the vietnamese (like manchuria for chinese), settled by gung-ho risk-takers from the north... and are therefore less bounded by traditions and ties? .. perhaps that has contributed to the sort of characters described above?

I would be surprised to find Vietnamese who would describe themselves as Han-ized. Sinicization in Vietnam is not considered something to be proud of. In spite of imperial attempts to assimilate Vietnam, it remained staunchly different. The language is Austro-Asiatic rather than Sinitic like Cantonese. The success with the Cantonese and failure with the Vietnamese could be due to the distance from the central control. There was probably also not enough critical mass of population to Sinicize Vietnam. Cantonese, like other southern Chinese were successfully Sinicized during the Tang dynastic, thus we hear southerners referring to themselves as Tang people rather than Han people. It is with the Tang that these people identify with, and remember with pride.

EVER NOTICE that Korean nationalists or Mongol nationalists or whomever come up with stupid theories that Northern Han are merely "Hanized" northern herdsman and bloodwise, the only Chinese are Southern Han

and INVERSELY, the Vietnamese nationalists or pan "yue" nationalists come up with theories that Southern Han are "hanized" Southeast asians

its like they're trying to get a slice of the Han pie based on geographic proximity to their people.

as a Northerner, personally, i find the korean nationalist claims far more irritating and if i ever meet any of you in real life. It will be the I.C.U when I SEE YOU

I'm sure it's irritating to all of us (and personally, I find either claim irritating), but I will have to give you a verbal warning for the undirected threat...;P

I don't like it either, but I'm pretty sure we've had some people like that in the past, and I simply can't have you threatening them or other people, can I?

Be more careful.

Plus, there's no need to use big letters and all caps, it looks like you're shouting.

Even if what they say is true, I could honestly care less anyways. Even if Northern Chinese are Sinicized Altaics and Southern Chinese are Sinicized SE Asians, who cares really? Does it matter? Chinese people are defined by culture anyways. Genetics plays about as much of a role in determining Chinese culture as it does American culture. I mean who the right mind would refer to themselves as genetically American?