There are 11 words of "Tha'i" and 32 words of "Du" with different meaning and written scripts. I do not know which one fits to his name since I have not yet seen his name in Sino-script.

Regards,

TTA

.... it's much easier for you to tell me than for me discover it myself. Furthermore I think my Viet friends have not lived in Chinese community... I can't ask them. (right now I am so far away from Viet community)

No, I didn't think of anything of your intention.

... perhaps not exactly nonsense, just wild generalization. The term "Bai Yue" is recorded in the history, not a new term.

Not that, Bai Yue concept was not the "Northern" genes, because Yue just refers to some Southerners. Perhaps actually the similarities are not important.

Never will there be before North and South Korea unite

TrueViet, you don't get it.

The Chinese in here are trying to claim, although hidden, that most of practices and cultures of the Southern Chinese including Vietnamese are from adopted from China, which is rediculous. Even the rice cultivation credit, it's all from Han Chinese but South China would deserve better credits than that. During that time, of course the Bai Yue were once living at that time and having a long time rice cultivation. The Lunar New Year event is another example. It makes in some ways that the Vietnamese were originally from the Han Chinese. They deny the influence of culture of Bai Yue that also had impact on the cultural and geographical shape of China today.

TrueViet, I am not trying to make any separation against any ethnic groups. The Chinese had been taught in twisted truth of Bai Yue, Vietnamese, and Han Chinese histories. That was how the Han concept was formed because the Han was promoted as the greatest thing of all in China. Remember the Tam Quoc Chi and Tam Quoc Dien Nghia stories, the Han seemed to be popular of all while the others, Wu, Yue, and Shu are now forgetful.
A lot of North Chinese are disagreeing with me while others are analyzing into deeper understanding from scientific approach. From their analysis, I think they are supporting me beside Kulong, Mengtze, Yun...and some more mods.


Thai= very big
Du= journey

Remember Shi Yu Zhi (Tay Du Ky or Journey to the West) story of the monkey and the monk who made journey to the West and became buddhas

[quote name='nguoiVietchanhtong' date='Dec 22 2005, 10:45 PM' post='4778567']
If the Yue people already lost to the Han Chinese, there must be a come back but we don't know when and where. There are times the fish eating the ants and ants eat the fish. It's normal that way.

And yet you say you don't promote a "reunified" Bai Yue!

Maybe Southerners do have Yue blood in them, but it doesn't matter! What's important is that we Southerners (I'm from Fujian) wish to remain Chinese. We don't feel emotionally connected with Vietnamese people and when we say "You Vietnamese and us Chinese" it's clear we distinguish between the two.

So please drop this thing as it is getting quite annoying!

Mia

YOu have no sympathy and appreciation of history. You have to know this "without roots you can't reach your destination." The Chinese is teaching you only one part of China, the other is thrown away and oblivious. Without the history, there would not be you or me, nor China, nor anything else. I don't ask to reunite Bai Yue but to appreciate the Bai Yue histories.

It's been an old question, I'm not claiming what. Till now no answer.
Rice could be planted in Korea, so nothing is implied of Southern-ness of rice. Some of Shen-Nong's 5 plants can be planted in both South and North, some seemingly North only. So the origin should be North.

In the Three Kingdom period, there was Wei, Shu and Wu. There were no Han but the Shu Han. Wu and Shu may seem like names Southern tribes, but it's just names and most probably got by adoption of geographical-historical things.

Aleady said, there are lots of way to write that, and most, if not all, of them have different meanings. For example, "thai" can also be thai of "quoc thai binh an". Though his "du" should be the one with Mandarin "you", there are still 4 (?) ways for that. The Du=journey may be the most logical.

"Rice could be planted in Korea, so nothing is implied of Southern-ness of rice. Some of Shen-Nong's 5 plants can be planted in both South and North, some seemingly North only. So the origin should be North."

If it's from the North and try to retain the rice plant alive in the winter, let see what you get. Wheat probably makes more sense in that way.

Quoc Thai Dan An (Guo Tai Ming An). I doubt that his Thai=peace.

"In the Three Kingdom period, there was Wei, Shu and Wu. There were no Han but the Shu Han. Wu and Shu may seem like names Southern tribes, but it's just names and most probably got by adoption of geographical-historical things."
I doubt that Wu and Shu as names of Southern tribes. Kingdoms would make more sense instead of tribes. Now I see how the Chinese use words to rationalize their conquest on the Bai Yue.

"

Yeah, it's strange actually but 15000 years old rice grain were found in Korea.
In 4-seasoned countries, usually rice is harvested at autumn, I think just let them die after being harvested and plant again in spring.

Sorry, just a little mispelling, should be Guo Tai Min An. I think it's not impossible for a person to have a name of "peace" Thai.


Perhaps, the tribes' name recorded might just be the names of their Kingdoms.
But the history should record more than just that if they were to be Kingdoms... like the history recorded the ZhongShan 中山 country was by Di2 狄 people. This kind of records might have affected the future historians, making Ou and Luo into Ou-Yue and Luo-Yue.

Here can be used for naming too.

Tha'i: 太, 泰, 寀, 態, 彩, 採,
Du: 攸, 游, 逾, 遊, 猷, 瑜, 輶, 鯈(鯈魚出遊從容是魚之樂也), 愉

<off topic>
About the Thai: 採 is an action of hand, "to gather, to collect"; "to pick, to select". 彩 is more like female name. 態 means "condition/state". Does not seem to be names. 寀 does not seem very common character but possible. The 2 remaining characters 太, 泰 are both very common characters. (seems you missed some characters, like 蔡)
Du: some of them does not read you in Mandarin, he called himself Zhang Thaiyou. 游遊猷輶鯈 remains. 攸猷輶鯈 not common, 游 means "to swim", so 遊 seems most logical.

{I think 彩愉 would be a female name }

NguoiVietChanhTong:
I know the great Han concept.
That is the reason I protest against the BaiYue concept. It is the invisible version of the Great Han
concept.
The BaiYue concept suggests that the Vietnamese are from BaiYue, that the Vietnamese are lost Han
Chinese.
The BaiYue concept suggests that the Vietnamese should belong to Chinese.
The BaiYue concept suggests that all Vietnamese cultures are from Chinese.
I try to tell you that the BaiYue concept upsets both Chinese nationalists and Vietnamese nationalists.
I try to tell you that the Vietnamese are Vietnamese, rather than Chinese BaiYue.
Why do you try to take what belong to the Chinese? Please, lieve the BaiYue to them.
Be proud of your Vietnamese part. We have enough for us. We do not need any part of BaiYue to live.
We do not need the rice from the Chinese. We have plenty of wild rice that are still living in the wilderness.
There is not neccessary the theory that rice should be from a tiny village to spread out throughout the world.

I didn't realise it?
No. Should not be like those. Because Bai Yue seemingly had very different tradition from Chinese.

That's true... A lot of people seem turned quite angry.

Final word to Vietnamese pro-BaiYuers before leaving this topic: Make our nation powerful first.

Regards,

TTA

Give me your argument that the Bai Yue concept suggests that the Vietnamese are lost Han Chinese. I will disprove it for you


The Chinese never admit that they are descendents of Bai Yue but a separate ethnic population of Han Chinese. I can't let the Han Chinese cha` dda.p on the Bai Yue history. The Chinese never claim Bai Yue as their own. So don't worry about me. It's not about the rice for living but the Bai Yue fame that stands for. The Southern Chinese are parallel descendents of the Bai Yue with great % mix of Han Chinese. Vietnamese have less % mix of Han Chinese.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Yue_%28peoples%29

Yue (peoples)
Yue (pinyin: Yuè, Wade-Giles: Yüeh, also Yuet, Viet) refers to ancient non-Han Chinese peoples of southern China, especially those along the coastline. In archaic Chinese, a number of characters (越, 粵, 鉞) were often used interchangeably to represent the same meaning.
Origins and ancient usage
In ancient times, the Chinese referred to the peoples to their south collectively as the Yue. Historical texts often refer to the "Hundred Yue" tribes (Chinese: 百越, pinyin: bai yue, Vietnamese: Bách Việt). Historian Lo Hsiang-lin has suggested that these peoples shared a common ancestry with the Xia. There is little evidence, however, that the Yue peoples held any common identity. The "Treatise of Geography" in Han Shu notes: "In the seven or eight thousand miles from Jiaozhi (northern Vietnam) to Kuaiji (southern Jiangsu or northern Zhejiang), the Hundred Yue are everywhere, each with their own clans." Just as the term Celt was used by the Greeks to describe what they perceived to be a broad cultural group, so the term Yue was a culturally relative term for the ancient Chinese. Also like "Celt", Yue is now used in a number of different ways. (see Modern usage below).

Ethnololinguists have suggested that the pronunciaton of Yue may be related to a type of hemp produced in what is now Zhejiang. The character itself is related to the character for "ceremonial axe" (鉞), usually considered a symbol of royal or imperial authority. A number of stone axes have been found in the area of Hangzhou, and there is evidence that the ceremonial axe was a southern invention.

Ancient texts mention a number of Yue peoples, including the Gou-Wu (句吳), Yu-Yue (于越), Yang-Yue (揚越), Min-Yue (閩越), Nan-Yue (南越), Dong-Yue (東越), Shan-Yue (山越), Luo-Yue (駱越) and Ou-Yue (甌越). Most of these names survived into early imperial times and can be roughly construed as cultural groupings.

Sinification and displacement
From the ninth century BC, two northern Yue peoples, the Gou-Wu and Yu-Yue, were increasingly influenced by their Chinese neighbours to their north. These two states were based in the areas of southern Jiangsu and northern Zhejiang respectively. Their aristocratic elite learnt the written Chinese language, adopted Chinese political institutions and military technology. Traditional accounts attribute the cultural change to the Grand Earl of Wu (吴太伯), a Zhou prince who had fled to the south. The marshy lands of the south gave Gou-Wu and Yu-Yue unique characteristics. They did not engage in extensive agrarian agriculture, relying instead more heavily on aquaculture. Water transport was paramount in the south, so the two states became advanced in shipbuilding and developed riverine warfare technology. They were also known for their fine swords.

In the Spring and Autumn Period, the two states, now called Wu and Yue, were becoming increasingly involved in Chinese politics. In 512 BC, Wu launced a large expedition against the large state of Chu, based in the Middle Yangtze River. A similar campaign in 506 succeeded in sacking the Chu capital Ying. Also in that year, war broke out between Wu and Yue and continued with breaks for the next three decades. In 473 BC, the Yue king Goujian finally conquered Wu and was acknowledged by the northern states of Qi and Jin. In 333 BC, Yue was in turn conquered by Chu.

After the unification of China by Qin Shi Huang, it became incorporated into the Chinese empire. The Qin armies also advanced south along the Xiang River to modern Guangdong and set up commanderies along the main communication routes. Throughout the Han Dynasty period two groups of Yue were identified, that of the Nan-Yue in the far south, who lived mainly in the area of Guangdong, Guangxi, and Vietnam; and that of the Min-Yue who lay to the northeast, centred on the Min River in modern Fujian.

Sinification of these peoples were brought about by a combination of imperial military power, regular settlement and Chinese refugees. The difficulty of logistics and the malarial climate in the south made the displacement and eventual sinification of the Yue peoples a slow process. When the Chinese came into contact with local Yue peoples, they often wrested control of territory from them or subjugated them by force. When a serious rebellion broke out in 40 AD by the Trung Sisters in modern Vietnam, a force of some 10,000 imperial troops was dispatched under General Ma Yuan. Between 100 and 184 no less than seven outbreaks of violence took place, often calling for strong defensive action by the Chinese.

As Chinese migrants gradually increased, the Yue were gradually forced into poorer land on the hills and in the mountains. Unlike the nomadic peoples of Central Asia, such as the Xiongnu or the Xianbei, however, the Yue peoples never posed any serious threat to Chinese expansion or control. Sometimes they staged small scale raids or attacks on Chinese settlements - termed "rebellions" by traditional historians. The Chinese for their part regarded them as being highly uncivilised and prone to fight one another.

Legacy of the Yue
The fall of the Han Dynasty and the succeeding period of division speeded up the process of sinification. Periods of instability and war in northern China, such as the Northern and Southern Dynasties and during the Song Dynasty led to mass migrations of Chinese. Intermarriage and cross-cultural dialogue has led to a mixture of Chinese and non-Chinese peoples in the south. By the Tang Dynasty, the term "Yue" had largely become a regional designation rather than a cultural one. A state in modern Zhejiang province during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period, for example, called itself "Wu-Yue". Likewise, the "Viet" in "Vietnam" is a cognate of the Chinese "Yue".

The impact of Yue culture on Chinese culture has not been determined authoritatively but it is clear that it is significant. The languages of the ancient states of Wu and Yue form the basis the modern Wu language and to some extent the Min languages of Fujian. Anthrolinguists have also determined that a number of Chinese words can be traced to ancient Yue words. An example is the word "jiang" (江), meaning river. To some extent, some remnants of the Yue peoples and their culture can also be seen in some minority groups of China.

Modern usage
In modern Chinese, the characters of "越" and "粵" are differiented. The former is used to refer to the area of northern Zhejiang, especially the areas around Shaoxing and Ningbo. The theatre of Zhejiang, for example, is called "Yue Opera" (越劇). The second character "粵" (yuè) is associated with the southern province of Guangdong and is commonly used as an abbreviation. Yue language (粵語) is a subdivision of the Chinese language popularly called "Cantonese". Its standard form and regional dialects are spoken in Guangdong, Guangxi, Hainan, Hong Kong, Macau and in many overseas Chinese communities around the world.



One more..: more as 30 years independent wars make vietnam very independent.
with or without "chinese blood"..

The Chinese need not to claim BaiYue as Chinese.
BaiYue is indeed Chinese now, and it is the fact regardless you can bear (stand) it or not.
I do not want to be BaiYue, for I am proud to be non-BaiYue Vietnamese myself.
I do not prevent you from willing to be from Chinesee BaiYue.
I hope that you stop attempting to upset other Vietnamese with you BaiYue concept,
for they may be like me, who cannot stand the BaiYue concept.
Please, keep it for yourself alone.
The same advice to ChenDaShi and ZhangTaiYou.
Now you are three who promote the BaiYue concept I know.

Please, read the 2 threads "the lost Han Chinese" and "Hanized natives"
and you can sense what the BaiYue concept may bring to your nose.
It is a terrible smell I cannot stand.

Oh I appreciate history, it's just that I don't appreciate Bai Yue history to the extent that you do. I mean, like I said, Southerners may just as well have Bai Yue blood in them, I am not denying such possibilities. It's just that we choose to concentrate (or in your words, "appreciate") on our Han heritage more, and is that so bad?

Without Bai Yue history, I still have my Chinese history, thus my Chinese roots. Therefore, according to your logic, I will eventually "reach" my "destination" because I have "roots".

Oh BTW, you have repeatedly said that you do not wish for a reunified Bai Yue, well maybe then you should consider stop saying things like "If the Yue people already lost to the Han Chinese, there must be a come back but we don't know when and where. There are times the fish eating the ants and ants eat the fish. It's normal that way." and stop mentioning that "enlightenment age" of yours. You know, just to make your claims more sincere.

If you are trying to convince Southerners to dig into "their" Bai Yue heritage then the way you are going about it isn't going to help your course!

Mia

I don't understand what you are telling me here. Don't you know that Chinese people in this forum do not agree with you on that part, especially on Wikipedia.

English people now prosper with the need to go back to Celt.

Vietnam needs a strong Yue concept to prosper.

English people now prosper with the need to go back to Celt. <-- HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! (why muss we do this stupid idiotic dream in a real?)

It have NOTHING to do with Blood!

Other view of this problem:

If some han thing a vietnam muss go in China.. well...

Why did China not assimilate by Vietnam in a new "big vietnam empire" that have a "big Han minority"?



(it was "working" with mongols and manchu empire why not with vietnam?)

I wanted to leave this multi-dimensional topic, but I need to return again.

A concept can not make a country prosper, just make a daydream. Instead of dreaming, we should take action to develop our nation by any mean. Your continuous repeat would not make the country better but create hostility to other nations, because of such an imperialistic concept. Vietnam is a small and a poor country, she needs relying on co-existence with her neighbouring countries. How do you feel the topic like "Which country would merge with China?" and the similar topics? The same feeling would grant to the readers of your posts. Very dangerous! Do you want to shape a facist face on all Vietnamese? Remember that our country needs the world. Keep the belief inside please!

Without a strong Yue concept, Vietnamese are very strong nationalistic in both domestic and overseas. Trueviet, you and me are three different ethnics (Muong, Kinh and Minnanese) but all we love Vietnam. Keep the ideal in the belief please. I love Vietnam not due to the BaiYue concept, just I love.

Finally, make our nation powerful first.

Regards,

TTA

Firstly, Lo Hsiang Lin is saying somthing he does not know.
BaiYue is not a single ethnic group. So, there is no common ancestry amongst the BaiYue themselves,
let alone with the Xia. Those who promote the BaiYue concept try to think the way Lo thinks. In that
way, they make their agenda fit.

Secondly, there was no the Yue peoples when they did not hold any common identity.

There are about 60 ethnic group in South China and North Vietnam now, and there have been more
at the time the word BaiYue was recorded in ShiJi by SiMaQian. Although the number has not reached
a hundred, it tells the fact that there are a great possibility that the Vietnamese has nothing to do with
other ethnic groups in what is called with the collective name of BaiYue. Could you find any minority
group in China with the name of BaiYue yourself?

I do not talk about blood or genes. I am talking about ethnic identity. I know that there are high possibility
of Han genes in the Vietnamese community. That does not make the claim that the Vietnamese are the
lost Han Chinese, nor the Vietnamese are from Chinese BaiYue. Ethnic identity makes people distinct from
other, and that makes the Vietnamese today after generations. Erasing ethnic identity with the BaiYue
concept someone tries to eliminate the entire group of people. I respect people. I want to keep all 60 ethnic
groups in China or in Vietnam forever. I do not want their culture to be lost forever. I want to keep the
spirits of their ancestors alive amongst their physically bodies of their desendants.

GREAT INSIGHT TrueViet, great insight, to me this is CHF highlight of the year!!!!

I, for one, do not like the idea of ethnic states. Countries should not be organized into exclusively for certain ethnicities. To me this is plain racism and backwards. For the human race to move forward we should respect each others' differences. The most influencial states throughout history are all non-ethnic states. Just look at the USA.

That's the point. Chinese does not claim BaiYue to be Chinese. No. BaiYue is not Chinese. There are various tribes in Southern China, that's them. Li-zu Dai-zu Shui-zu etc. Han Chinese can't claim them because they don't want.

English descended its language from Germanic... a result of Germanic invasions toward the island. Regardless, I think Englismen now do not consider the Celts as their "main ancestors". Just assume that they were just past inhabitants before their "main ancestors" came.
Don't know but this might be similar to China.
Agreed 100%. Made many mad.
Regards,
qrasy
Every human has common far ancestry in Africa. But we need to see relatively recent common ancestry. BaiYue themselves seem to be rather close to each other. Genetically many ethnics in South China are close to each other and also to Vietnamese. Their identity are split to many, the term "Bai Yue" is just a generalization to those non-Han Chinese, not a specific term (thus the word "Bai" ~ 100).
Miao-zu has tens or hundreds of subgroups yet they have their own identities regardless that almost every non-Miao classify them as one single Miao-zu.

I mean Non-Han-Chinese. Most of BaiYue are non-Han-Chinese now. Some of BaiYue are people in China neighbour nations such as Vietnam and Lao. Non-Han-Chinese are minority groups in China. There are many non-Jing-Vietnamese. (In this thread, we use Jing and Viet interchangeble, preferably Viet). There was also the ancient Cantonese at that time, and most of the BaiYue are the Zhuang today. There are Hanized Chinese from ancient BaiYue, too. Therefore, most of BaiYue today are Chinese, and some of BaiYue are Vietnamese.

In another sense, BaiYue territory may be considered as NanYue at the time of ZhaoTuo, in which, the territory of the Jing/Viet was only a small portion (mordern North Vietnam, or Red River Deltar area).

In the sense of the ancestry that is not very far away to Africa, we can see that the BaiYue consists of groups that speak Tai-Takai (zhuang), groups that speak Mon-Khmer (Jing or Viet), groups that speak the languages of Miao. They have been in the area up to mordern day. At the time of BaiYue, people realized that they were not the same group, and that made them keep their identities for milleniums. It is not simple to say that the common ancestry of the Zhuang, the ancient Cantonese, the Jing, and the Miao has something with the Xia. Their common ancestry - if there is one - might be traced back milleniums before the Xia.

In the current discussion in this thread, we are talking about the BaiYue and the mordern Vietnamese. So, I am talking with the terms in the time of BaiYue, rather than the older time, or the mordern time. I am saying that at the time of BaiYue, Viet or Jing was a small and distinct group from other groups in BaiYue. When most of BaiYue are mordern Chinese - non-Han-minorities or Hanized-Han, it is nonsense to claim BaiYue, people or land, as Vietnamese or Vietnam.

Yeah, most BaiYue are now non-Han Chinese, that's right... By the time of Qin dynasty, they have already diversified, regardless of how similar they were to each other. Just from the Y-genes, seems that the common ancestry of Jing, Miao, Zhuang are related closely to Chinese and Korean. But the relationship may be millenia old before Xia, before modern language groups could be recognized.

I also think claiming other's land does not do any good, regardless how many of your people are there. Don't even think about Kinh in China, the Mongols in Inner Mongolia, or some post-Uni-Soviet countries which have many Russians, I can even see that some countries with same major ethnic do not unite.

But don't Chu et al and Bing Su studies showed that Southern Chinese are different from Northern Chinese, and are closer to Southeast Asians?

TrueViet, I'm not sure if ther Zhang Taiyou you're talking about is the same one who's a member of CHF, but he was active here until June this year (his last post was in June, but his last visit here was on 8 December).

Here are the threads he started:

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...wtopic=1997&hl=

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...wtopic=1559&hl=

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...wtopic=1671&hl=

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...wtopic=5367&hl=

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...wtopic=3681&hl=

Can you tell me whether this is the same guy? I notice that you participated in the first of these threads last month. Zhang Taiyou, at my request, sent me his Vietnamese-language paper on the Zhuang and Lac-Viet in January. Of course, I have not been able to read it, but I showed it to my Vietnamese history lecturer and he said the Zhuang-Vietnamese link is not a new idea at all. I think there is an attempted English translation of the paper on this thread: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...wtopic=5367&hl=

I am sure now he is the same guy, for in the 4th link you gave, I found

I also see that he is seeking information and supports in discussion from many forums.
He starts with his belief that mordern Vietnamese are ancient BaiYue, and he believes
in the legend that the Vietnamese ancestors are from the Chinese legendary ShenNong.
That is the reason he is seeking information from Chinese history materials. He is not
interested in new findings or ideas that do not support his belief.
Zhang has been very active recently in most of forums in Vietnamese, even in BBC
in Vietnamese. However, his theories is not very much welcome in Vietnamese community.
The reasons for that are not limited to:
1- His articles or essays are lengthy, confusing, badly composed.
2- He quoted a lot from Chinese history books, and most of people (including me) are not
book-worms. We are not sure whether his quotations are genuine or not. We do not think
that he is capable of delievering acceptable translations.
3- His theories may lead either or to:
a- All Vietnamese people, culture, land, etc, are from Chinese, and should be back to Chinese.
b- All people, culture, land, etc from YangZi river are originally Vietnamese, and should be back
to Vietnamese.

We, the Vietnamese, do not like any of the above ideas. If any of his theories is correct,
we prefer to hear that from a professional person, and in the form of an acceptable composition.

Zhang Taiyou claimed on CHF to be a Vietnamese of Chinese descent. Is this true?

I feel odd answering this question. But since you do not feel odd posing it, I will. Though I think one's ethnicity tends to influence one's points of view regarding his/her ethnicity, I know that in Vietnamese history that has not neccessarily been the case. Without help from our Chinese or mixed Chinese Vietnamese, we could not have won our independence. In fact the earliest movements were led by the latter. In this forum, thankstoall is 2/3 Chinese, but feels strongly Vietnamese.
Anyway, as Zhang Taiyou articles in Vietnamese forums raised questions about his ethnicity, he replied that he researched Vietnamese history to search for his mother's heritage.
I want to add that I think he does contribute some unique idea(s) to issues of Vietnamese past, among which the meaning of the word Ou (A^u in Vietnamese).

Rest assured that I do not believe that ethnicity determines one's view of history. I am just interested in knowing whether he only claimed to be of Chinese descent on CHF so as to try and get more support here

I've not read a study like that in detail. I don't even know which paper you are referring to
Generally it's "shown" that Southern Chinese are closer to Southern East Asian, while Northern Chinese are to Northern East Asian. Does not conclude anything. There is no more Qin dynasty people.
I don't know what genes used, and which "Southeast Asians" are compared.

I know that in some genes Greeks are closer to *Subsaharan* Africans than Europeans.

No. He does not claim here in CHF alone to be of Chinese descent.
Yes. He claims to be of Chinese descent in wherever he is (forums in Vietnamese).

On the other hand, I see some who claim to be Vietnamese support his theories,
in the side that China should return what "belong" to Vietnam. I do not see any
who claim to be Chinese in Vietnamese forum supports his theories in the side
of whatever being Vietnamese are originally Chinese. Most of people participating
in his discussion reject his theories. Some gave him hard time, giving him some
heavy words. He once asked a moderator to remove my posts against his, but
the moderator said that it was not fair to treat me that way. He seemd to dislike
me, but he and I have been trying to be nice and fair toward each other. It may
seem obvious to someone that I have something personal with him. I hope that
you all give me a fair chance to be under your judgement.

"Southern Han" is not a homogenous concept. Southern China is HUGE and is historically/culturally/politically quite diverse.

while northerners from different provinces are more or less similar(language, food, etc with a few exceptions), southerners from different provinces are not very similar

the umbrella term of "Southern Han" simply does not work effectively. Sichuanese are indistinguishable from Northerners while cantonese have alot of similarities with vietnamese

not to imply those Pan Yue Vietnamese nationalists can consider cantonese to be "one of them" but cantonese are definitely a combination of Chinese colonists and the native populations (similar to the way Latin American populations are to Spain)

I agree. However, I beg to differ that Sichuanren are considered your typical southerner 南方人, they are more like "western Chinese", or at least southwestern Chinese.

The people I've met from Sichuan look more like Tibetans than Cantonese.

That's probably because Sichuan and Tibet are neighbour provinces.

But after the Qing quelled the rebel of Wu Sangui, there aren't many "native" Sichuanese left anyways.

Yeh, I agree, because there are some people who claim they can distinguish between Cantonese and Fujianese then that should be true.

Really? But what I heard was like Sichuanese is still very close to Southerners despite the language.

I think you've misunderstood the meaning of "indistinguishable".
He's saying Sichuanese are less like Southerners and more like Northerners.

So, anyone gained any intellectual insight from this thread other than "I and those who agreed with me are smrat, the rest of you are purty dumn" as in any usual internet fishing expedition?

I don't agree with nguoiVietchanhtong, but I don't think he's being treated fairly (this bait, I mean thread, was obviously aimed specifically at him). Think of a free-market capitalist being baited, I mean invited, to give opinions to a socialist forum, of courses that person's opinions will be dismemberred, no matter if they were daft or even slightly sound. In the world of intellectual honesty, we call that an ambush.

Do all Indians dress in tepes and dance silly?

If Like2learn were still coming here, nguoiVietchanhtong would have had company.

I agree that Kulong was being a little provocative by starting the thread, just as xng's first post on the thread about Vietnamese being "lost Han Chinese" was not as tactfully written as I would have liked. But I think it was at least useful in that I got to explain what I mean by the term 'Pan-Yue', which I have not done before. I stand by the validity of this term and its applicability to some people's views. There is Pan-Arabism, Pan-Slavism, Pan-Islamism, Pan-Asianism, Pan-Malayism, Pan-Turkism, and so on, and these all refer to the promotion of an identity that transcends, overlaps, or even rejects current state borders. So the idea that all lands once inhabited by the Bai Yue rightfully belong to the Yue nation (which may or may not be presently represented by Vietnam) can fairly be called Pan-Yueism.

Bait or not, I am far more interested in studying the fish than dismembering it. I hope there are others who agree with me.

Thank you for the explanation for the term "Pan-Xism."

I think the term Pan-Yueism is only one of two aspects of the BaiYueism.
The other pithole is that someone may want to recall lands, people, and
culture of mordern Vietnam to the Yue nation which is now China.

You may not realize that or you may not consider it seriously. This is the fact,
that upsets the Vietnamese, too.

I do not know or I am not sure the motive behind the Pan-Yueism, but I
will fight fot the Pan-Yueism being kept inside the thinkers, and for the thinkers alone.

I have not yet seen this argument being made by Chinese. More often, Chinese nationalists claim that Annam only broke away from the Tang empire by historical accident during a time of political fragmentation (the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms), and would not otherwise have had a separate identity, and/or that anyway most of Vietnamese culture comes from China. They usually assume that any Yue identity in south China died out after the Han conquest of Nan Yue, Dong Yue and Min Yue, while the Luo Yue (Lac Viet) identity in Jiaozhi was diluted away by sinicization starting from Si Nghiep's (Shi Xie) term as governor. To them, the modern Vietnamese identity has little or no connection to the Bai Yue.

Another thing: I was interested to read Nguyen-Truong Cam's earlier comment that "Only one time in history did Vietnam invade China. But that was to sack ammunitions being accumulated for an imminent invasion of Vietnam." I infer that this refers to the Vietnamese siege of Yongzhou in 1075, followed by the Song counterattack in 1076. We have a thread on that here:

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3267

Chinese historical accounts have always portrayed the Vietnamese as aggressors out for plunder, while the Vietnamese version is indeed that the attack on Yongzhou was a pre-emptive strike against an imminent Song invasion. I'm hoping our Vietnamese members can contribute their views over on that thread.

So-on includes pan-hanism?

Regards,

TTA

Dear trueViet, and also who are being concerned about the so-called "Pan-Yueism"

I do not know what is pan-yue theory, so you may know because you stated that you will fight for against it. People can not fight for something that she/he may not know, unless he/she comes from "nhà thương Chợ Quán" or mental-care hospital.

Therefore, I would like to learn from you the so-called Pan-Yue theory.

-Who created this theory? When it was created? How is it going now? Which organization promotes and studies this theory?

-Who are the key figures of this theory?

-What are the books that propose this theory? Publication? Years?

-Can you tell me the theoretical system of this theory, which includes its scope, its application, its phenomena and its school?

-you mentioned about the fact that this theory is upsetting the Vietnamese, so can you give me a numbers of Vietnamese who have been suffered by this theory? where? when? how many (approximately) ? who?

-you mentioned about its seriousness, so probably, you know how it is threatening to society now. What are the becoming outcomes or/and the results? So, I think that you can give me the data. As well, can you analyze how it will threaten to Vietnamese?

If you claim that you are Vietnamese, so you should know Vietnamese situations in both domestic and overseas, at least you must feel the threat of the so-called pan-Yue theory, so that you participate in this forum and fight against this theory. Right? You, being a Vietnamese that is feeling about this threat, you must have a full understanding on your enemies and so, you can answer the above questions. Very simple, just say what you see that it is happening in the Vietnamese community!

I hope that you would not upset me!

Otherwise, you make me to think about one common human behavior is to exaggerate something, to create some unrealistic enemies for he/she/them to have some holy missions, but actually is to realize herself/himself/themselves from being nothing to becoming something. To be an inventor of something is also interesting! why not? That is human behavior.

Only for trueViet: I need your help. Can you help me translate this poem (Bạc Tần Hoài) to English? http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=8935 I am not good in translation, while you are good in the following languages: Chinese, English and Vietnamse. Thanks in advance.


Thank you,

TTA

It would be very funny if people collect some randomly unrealistic opinions of one or two individuals and give them a name of a theory, then they make criticism on them. Can you dare to die for defeating one enemy, one theory if you do not know what and where it is?

Regards,

TTA

Hi Yun,

I have a few things to discuss with you.

Firstly, I hope to see that idea being shaped in a theoretical framework. Even, I have not seen anyone states that idea (the Bai Yue rightfully belong to the Yue nation) explicitly. In the case that it has, if you see some prematured and careless opinions are the theory of the so-called Pan-Yueism. I would really regret. I see some Chinese claims that Vietnamese is a part of China. But, I never give any name for those childish minds. Could I give them a name like "Han-NeoFascists" like the German after the WWI?

Secondly, have you envisioned the outcomes of the creation of the so-called "Pan-Yueism"? 2000 years of bloody history between 2 two countries are still not enough? We should close the sad history instead of creating hostility. Yes, we have not fully trusted in each other yet, that results from the history, but both nations and people are increasing friendly relationship now. We can not change the history, but we can change the becoming history.

Regards,

TTA

Yes, you could call it Pan-Chinese nationalism, just like those people who think Singapore should merge with China because there are so many Chinese there, or that overseas Chinese should still be loyal to China. These kinds of feelings do exist. It does not matter if those who hold them think of them as Pan-XX or not; more likely they will not because they will simply call it national loyalty.



That is why I do hope that what you are saying is true, and that the number of Vietnamese who think Vietnam has a claim to south China is a very tiny number indeed. There has been enough bitterness between China and Vietnam, much of it unneccessary. I see a lot of bitterness in the idea that the Han empire stole south China from the Yue, and I don't want that idea to become more popular. Nor do I want to see Chinese being bitter about an idea that Vietnam was just a vassal state that the French stole from China. That idea is just as immature and unjustified.

Hello thankstoall,

I feel you are disingenuous in your critique towards Yun. Much of what you have accused him of (supposedly fanning the flames of animosity between Chinese and Vietnamese) you have done yourself. Quotes such as:

are overly hostile and unnecessary.

In addition, you're disingenuous when demonizing Yun in his observation of a "Pan Yue" nationalism and acting ignorant of the fact that there are Vietnamese who hold such beliefs. In your very first post here, you indicated as such when you wrote:



You claim you know nothing of a "Pan-Yue" mentality, but are you not claiming a common "Bach Viet" ancestry, which includes "Bach Viet" clans in "Minnan"? You also said here that the immigration of "Bach Viet" from China to Vietnam is just a "journey to fatherland", so are you not claiming a common Yue identity (which includes China) centered in Vietnam? This is only supported by the when you state that you "hate Chinese rulers who always try to invade [your] Viet remaining land" despite "thousand years have passed, it is still not enough for them to give up [their] ambition". So it seems full well you know what Yun is speaking of when he says there is a "Pan-Yue" nationalism, as you have espoused it yourself.

I do not know why you would deny that you have any knowledge of the "Pan-Yue" idea, and I can see how this thread is unnecessarily hostile and provocative towards Vietnamese so that you may have felt attacked. But I do not think it is fair to criticise Yun as causing hostility between the Chinese and Vietnamese with the idea of "Pan-Yueism", or say that Chinese are just fabricating this theory to create an imaginary enemy, when you yourself have spoken at length about the same ideas.

Many of us are here only to discuss history, with no ill-intent or political agendas. You are welcome here to do the same. Thanks.