I would like to acknowledge and credit Mr Philip Tom as the researcher / scholar who has kindly supplied all the following information listed below; he was the one who virtually pioneered the study and classification of the different types of Chinese sabers and their inter-cultural links to other countries.


From TOP to BOTTOM:

1) Typical Turko-Mongol saber of the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368). The ancestor of the goosequill and willow leaf sabers of later dynasties. The goosequill saber and willow leaf saber were to be used by the military and civilians alike.

2) Goosequill saber (yanmaodao) of the Ming and middle Qing Dynasties (1368-1800?). The blade is straight until the curve begins around the centre of percussion. The center of percussion is the point on the blade with the least vibration on hard contact, the spot on the blade that transmits the most power to the target in a hard chop. This type of sword seems to have lost its popularity by the end of the 18th century.

3) Willow leaf saber (liuyedao) of the Ming and Qing Dynasties (1368-1911). It is characterised by the blade having a gentle curve throughout its length. The steepness of the curve increases as it moves towards the tip.

4) Oxtail saber (niuweidao). It originated in the late Qing Dynasty and was used exclusively by civilians and not by the Qing military. Commonly known today as " the Chinese Broadsword ".

5) The typical jian of the Ming and Qing Dynasties (1368-1911), commonly used by civilians.



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1) Goosequill saber (supposedly owned by Manchu founder Nurhachi)
2) Imperial Willow leaf saber
3) Civilian Oxtail saber (posted by William Reinman on swordforum and dated by Scott circa 1865)

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Below is an article posted on the old swordforum several years by Alexander Chin , about the evolution and characteristics of Chinese sabers of the Ming and Qing Dynasties, written by Scott Rodell and Philip Tom, and first published in a private exhibition catalog on Chinese swords in 1999.

CHINESE SABER TYPES

Below is an excerpt from an AN INTRODUCTION TO CHINESE SABERS: THE PEIDAO OF THE MING THROUGH QING DYNASTIES, by Philip Tom and myself that gives some detail concerning the standard and really only swords being used in any number during the last two dyansties. It was published in "Sword & Brush" a show catalog for an exibition of the same name organized two years ago in Washington, DC by the Great River Taoist Center (www.grtc.org) to celebrate the school's 15th Anniversary. "Sword & Brush" is really the only thing that's been published with acurate information on Chinese Arms of the Ming and Qing periods. Unfortunately, it is out of print. But don't despair, this weekend I will be in San Fransico to meet with the SFI gang and one of things on our agenda is the reissue of "Sword & Brush".

-Scott M. Rodell

Excerpt-
The YANMAODAO has a blade which is essentially straight up until the beginning of the backedge, at which point the cutting edge begins a gentle curve to a slightly upswept tip (cat. D-012, D-037). Of all forms of peidao, it is stylistically the most archaic because its shape is so influenced by the zhibeidao of earlier times.

The yanmaodao was designed to combine the best features of both the curved saber and straight sword. The arc of the cutting edge towards the point, as well as the thickness of the blade's back, enabled a swordsman to deliver more penetrating cuts than he could with the straight, double-edged jian. Yet the lack of curve for most of its length, plus the double-edged tip afforded by the back-edge, enabled him to execute both long thrusts and short "pointing" jabs that he would not be able to perform effectively with a more curved blade.

Surviving specimens and portrayals in art indicate that the yanmaodao was quite widely used in China from the Ming through the first half of the Qing. It appears to have lost popularity by the 19th cent., and is now little-known among students of martial arts. Perhaps the reason for its decline was that Chinese sword schools developed preferences for more specialized weapons, whose strong points fulfilled the needs of their particular fighting systems. In the world of swords, the design requirements for optimal cutting and thrusting efficiency are on opposite poles. A blade design that attempts to combine the attributes of sword and saber will achieve a "mid-range" versatility at the expense of the strong points at either end of the spectrum.

The willow-leaf saber or LIUYEDAO also made its debut during the Ming. It is characterized by a narrow but fairly stiff blade, tapering towards the point, and with a gentle curve which begins ahead of the forte (cats. D-014, D-016, D-025, etc.) Generally, the blades are grooved and are provided with a backedge. The somewhat greater curve of the liuyedao makes it a better cutting weapon than the yanmaodao although it changes the balance sufficiently to make it less accurate for the thrust.

Liuyedao were perhaps the most widely-used sabers in Chinese history. Beginning in the Ming Dynasty, they became the sidearm of choice for military men in all branches of the service, and retained this status until the fall of the Qing in 1911. Simple, stout versions saw action from the jungles of Taiwan to the snowy heights of the Himalayas to the sands of Central Asia. Sumptuously-decorated ones graced the parade regalia of two dynasties and were presented as gifts to tributary peoples (cat. D-023 and D-016 respectively). It is not difficult to understand this weapon's enduring appeal. The blade is well-suited for powerful, slashing cuts delivered either on foot for from the saddle. Its moderate arc makes it a usable thrusting implement as well.

Both sabers discussed up to this point have narrow blades. There is a third type, the piandao, whose blade is much more curved than that of a liuyedao. It first appears in military textbooks during the Ming, where it is called yaodao. By the Qing, the term piandao (which means "slicing saber") came into use (cat. D-038). Its name, and blade shape, indicate that its was primarily intended to inflict long, slicing cuts at very close quarters. There is an obvious parallel between this saber and the shamshir and talwar of Persia and India, respectively. It is probable that the concept was adopted by the Chinese after contact with these peoples. However, it did not prove especially popular in China. Aside from its employment by skirmishers (also equipped with rattan bucklers) during the 18th cent., it saw no widespread military use. Specimens are rarely encountered today.

During the late Qing Dynasty, sometime around the mid-19th cent., there appeared the fourth major type of Chinese saber, the NIUWEIDAO or "ox-tail" saber" (cat. D-017). It differs from the other forms in that its blade is much wider over all, and more importantly,the width increases away from the forte and then tapers to a point. Also, its grip is almost always downward-curving, as opposed to the other types of sabers which may have straight or curved hilts. This is the type of saber which is most commonly associated with China in the minds of martial arts students and movie-goers. However, the historical record shows that the niuweidao has the shortest history of the various types, and did not serve as a military-issue weapon during the Imperial period. It was developed by civilians, in the milieu of the proliferating martial arts schools of the 19th century when numerous rebellions wracked the country. These rebellions were most often fought, not by trained military men skilled in the use of arms, but peasants. Lacking the hours of practice required for delivering acurate cuts with a liuyedao or yanmaodao, peasants most likely opted for the heavier, more damaging cuts of the niuweidao.

The ox-tail saber must be considered separately from the other broad-bladed, falchion-like weapons with clipped points which were largely used by peasants for centuries. Its precise origin is still uncertain. It definitely has no antecedents in the Eurasian steppe nomad tradition which gave rise to the yanmaodao and the liuyedao. There is a resemblance between it and the blades on certain polearms used in Vietnam in the early 19th century However, it does not appear as though the Vietnamese themselves developed a version of this blade mounted as a saber. Examples of niuweidao found in Vietnam appear to have been brought in by Chinese immigrants. At present, we can consider the oxtail saber to be an indigenous Chinese development. Unfortunately, we do not know the region in which it made its first appearance in China.

____Other Posts on this Topic____

Generally speaking, the Ox Tail is a saber favored for less skilled swordsmen because it can deliver a more powerful cut than the Willow Leaf of Goose Quill Sabers. In other words, if you're removing pounds of flesh, its less important where you cut. Accordingly, it was favored by martial artists with less time for training, ie peasants, tradesmen, etc. vs. professional military, body guards and so on.

We probably see most contempory students of Chinese Martial Arts practicing with the Ox Tail Saber instead of the older & historically more midely used, Willow Leaf & Goose Quill Sabers, because of the surge in Martial Arts Societies amongst the general population during the 19th Century in response to the above mentioned rebellions, in response to foreign agression & colonialization, & a need by the general population to protect themselves from the Qing military as much as from bandits.

I am bringing period Qing examples of all three saber types, as well as other weapons to my SFI Chinese Swordsmanship Seminar in San Francisco this June. Students atending will have the oportunity to handle these weapons & feel for themselves how each plays.

Scott M. Rodell

Most of the combat arts loosely called "kung fu" systems evolved outside the military context in late Imperial China (Ming and Qing Dyn.). The niuweidao appears to be a development rooted in this milieu. My research has not found, to date, any documented use of the niuweidao within the ranks of the Imperial armed forces. Period iconography shows use of the liuyedao and an earlier form, the yanmaodao (goose quill saber). Furthermore, niuweidao are not illustrated in the mid-18th c. compendium of regulations, the HUANGCHAO LIQI TUSHI. This publication shows that of the true sabers ("peidao") designed for use with one hand, the standard types for military use and court regalia are the liuyedao and a somewhat rare form called the piandao.

Of course, one must keep in mind that by the 19th c., ad hoc militias were often raised on a local level to assist the regular forces in one way or another. The men would have been recruited from town or village, and little or no attempt was made to standardize or integrate weapons and training with those of the regular forces. Under such circumstances, it is entirely possible that niuweidao may have seen action in a military context, in the hands of these irregular fighting forces on the government side.

The other civilian element in the martial arts world would be the scholars and literati. These men embodied a personal style which emphasized refinement and elegance. Archery and the use of the jian, or straight, double edged sword, had strong appeal in this social class.

In late Imperial China, the state relied primarily on professional standing armies based on hereditary staffing, with additional conscription from the populace in times of emergency. There was no universal conscription as was the case of Europe up til the 20th c., and the feudal system of military organization (such as was used in Japan) was not followed. During the Qing Dyn., the military was multiethnic (Manchus, Chinese, Mongols plus a smattering of Koreans and even Russians in the "Eight Banners", and all Chinese in the "Army of the Green Standard"). In all these units, soldiers expected their sons to follow them into the ranks. Weapons, dress, and gear were standardized, and combat training seems to have adhered to the norms established by the Mongols (for mounted archery technique) and the military manuals written by the Ming general Qi Jiguang (gunnery, boxing and close combat weapons). Socially, the military tended to live apart from the general population, in garrisons or in agro-military colonies (much like the Roman experience). We can see from all this how the military and civilian traditions of fighting arts were eventually to diverge in the last centuries of Imperial rule.

Phillip Tom

The Ox Tail Saber is generally refered to as a civilian saber because it was never issued to, or carried by Imperial Troops. Unfortunately, every movie you see, including those like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", which did such a geat job of historical accuracy in settling & costume, arm soldiers with off the rack junk from the local wushu shop. From examination of existing Ming & Qing examples, we know that the Ox Tail Saber did not appear until sometime in the late 18th century at earliest. At that time there was less of a differential between the width at the forte & the width towards the tip. This differential increased as time passed so that we can generally date Ox Tails as early or later 19th century by their form. Ox Tail Sabers appeared in greatest numbers during the mid-19th century when the Qing dynasty was nearly over thrown by the Taiping Rebellion as well as other large scale revolts (the dynasty never really recovered from these uprisings).

Scott M. Rodell

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Thomas Chen: One point of interest is that the Qing Imperial Documents on armaments details of certain garrisons and the 8 Banners which I have copies of do not specifically mention single-handed sabers as liuyedao or yanmaodao..... They just use the generic term yaodao or "waist saber"...

On my website, http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com, I had clearly stated "I hope you have enjoyed and have benefited from the information and pictures presented on this website. All errors of analysis, interpretation, omission and/or commission are entirely mine....."

I wish to state that I am not an expert on Chinese swords and I believe that Phillip Tom and Scott Rodell, despite their years of exposure and handling of thousands of Chinese blades and study of Imperial Qing documents with regards to weapons, do not profess to be experts nor can claim the titles of "Mr Know It All". The field of knowledge on Chinese swords is so vast I think nobody has the guts to claim to be an infallible expert and master.... Nonetheless, I believe that Scott and Phillip are two of the most knowledgeable fellows in the States.... Nobody can claim perfect knowledge, so we can discuss and even clash and argue so as to sift out the truth or what is most likely the truth...

[Edit: I've moved those posts relating to Wujiang's chart to the original thread with that chart.]

The ring pommel design seems to have emerged in the Han dynasty. Did it disappear after the Song?

It went out of fashion during the Ming and Qing... but there appears to be tri-lobe hollowed pommels mounted on certain Ming jians, similar to Korean jians shown below:

Thanks to Thomas for posting this. Some questions:

In reference to post #3, I am curious as to why there is a marked difference in the swords of the Warring States and the Qin dynasty.

Was it a case that the swords shown as from the Warring States are from the earlier part of the Warring States while the Qin swords are more representative of the style and type at the end of the Warring States? Could it be the different style of swords exists during the dynasty and they are but one example of swords during the period? I assume the Qin swords are examples from the Terracotta findings.

I note also the Han swords look a bit like single edged sabres. Thomas, can you clarify?

Han was most well know to have replaced the jian with the dao. But that does not mean that the jian simply died out. They continued to exist in both the military and civilian (ok, more like nobles)

Thought that the dao was easily to construct.

Also it can be quite ez to teach to wanna-be warriors.
Believe it takes more time and skill to play with the Jian.

Q: Can someone verify and validiate those points?

Not really. A few things we have to consider before we address this.

(1) The complex jian play we see today is based on the Ming and Qing dynasty swords. We actually have nothing on what swordsmanship was like in the Han dynasty so no varification can actually be made.
(2) The introduction of the dao was very much a responce to the increase in cavalry use during the Han dynasty which required more hacking techniques. As far as hacking is concerned, jian snaps more easily than a dao.
(3) The length of the jian by the Han dynasty was quite long. Similar to those found in the Qin tombs. While great for dueling among nobles and looks wickedly cool for command, it really isn't such a good sword for cavalry battles. As the primary technique for a jian at the time remains as thrusting, the length would simply mean more clumsy retraction before trusting again. If the sword is shortened, then it decreases the attack length. With the dao, this does not happen.

This is partly because the terracota warrior are the main focus of defining Qin. The problem is that evidence from the Warring States for such weapons is rare, despite Qin's war machine fighting up untill the establishment of the Qin dyansty (yet no swords quite like these found before the buried army find).
Short double edged 'East Zhou' Jian of bronze can be found in early West Han tombs also. Stabbing style double edged jian were on display both from the locality of Wudi & Jingdis tomb. One of these was circle hilted in the East Zhou style. I have been told that such swords can be found from Han also, but I would suspect that some are simply East Zhou swords retained and then interned within tombs.The Qin dynasty was after all a short one and such weapons might remain around households like our WW1 bayonets.
The JingDi example was a short bronze jian with a simple tang (no hilt) and buried with a noble. It seems likely to be a true 'Han' sword in that case since they would have moved from the battlefield to self defense weapons. By this time bronze was rare on the battlefield so the lustrous bronze sword may have been a thing of beauty.
The East Zhou swords Thomas showed are chronolgical left to right up to the close of EAst ZHou, the right most version being the late East Zhou stlye. Lovely items too.
There are some East Zhou bronze Jian up to 70cm, but these seem rare and not associted with Qin. There isnt the same evidence the Qin longsword existed in East ZHou although it seems likely it did, due to the changing times vis-a-vis iron & bronze.
Wagner, IIRC, said such long bronze swords are mimicing the contemporary iron longswords. These then would be the way of the future (longer swords) & since the bronze age weapons were soon to be obselete with refining improvements to iron in Han, hence the rarity of bronze longswords.

Single edged dao 'sabre' emerge during Han. I am sceptical about the earlier 'Wu' hook as a sword so evidence for sabre swords in Zhou is almost non-existent. This Wu Hook had none of the visible sharpness in profile that other Qin weapons did (mao, ge, jian). The edge was more like a blugeoning 'sword' rather than a meat cleaver. My opinion, because I made sure to look at it end on.
Bronze dao tended to be shorter than the later steel types. 60-70cm seems most common for bronze Han dao, but with some shorter (40cm) and some rare bronze swords up to 90cm. These (bronze weapons) are seldom encountered by mid-West Han.

Jian (steel) still continue but the representations of Dao, their use in suceeding periods, and even the position of dao found in graves suggests the dao was seen as the more desirable weapon. Long steel jian exist but quite why the dao take precedence is something I can't quite explain.
Cavalry is a partial explanation and yet dao are infantry weapons too. Thomas's explanation of the cross sections of Dao did make sense of cross section features I didnt understand, and his diagram elsewhere shows the adaption to lateral strength in dao cross section...like a steel girder for a building is an 'I' shape. In this way for slashing the longer Han double edged steel jian would be less structually sound even if more versatile in application. The trade off is that the dao cross section is less suitable for stabbing strength in turn.
This suggests slashing was prefered with (heavier) long swords. Kind of understandable since a slash is an easier strike IMO and also if I handle a sword of weight I always feel a cutting blow is the natural mechanical application.

Hey Thomas Chen,

Can you tell us what the Pudao/Podao (朴刀) looked like during the Sung and Ming dynasties?

Wj,

All Good points.

Q: Does the design of the Han Sword determine some of the techniques?

Recently this Cardinal played with a Han Sword from ZhengWuTang and realized that some of his defensive parry techniques with the guard does not work.

To play w/ the Han sword efficiently, utilizes a series of ["dodge and disengage"] motion before thrusting.
After a thrust, this Cardinal does not retract. He leads the sword w/ the body in any direction.

Your point of a lengthy blade is valid.

In terms of using Dao for hacking (from a horse), it makes sense.

Always believe external use of the sabre does not required more training, just hack and chop.

It takes more skill to point and thrust w/ a jian and a spear.

Situations where one has the positional advantage from the horse, hack and chop are the superior movements.

Like I said, there is no way to determine that one way or another. No documents about the swordplay at the time survived. Although one can make a VERY weak guess that the Han dynasty dao wasn't designed for cutting as opposed to hacking judging by the straightness of the blade and the fact it is a one-handed weapon (because it was used for cavalry). Normally a cutting blade would be curved. And if you want to cut with a straight blade, then it is normally with two hands. This obviously isn't the case. In addition it is generally the case you need certain body and footwork support when cutting which you don't get on horseback.

Thk you f. your point again.

Why do swords go from short Gladius style to a long samuria swords type.?

Guys, I wrote this article a few years back... Thought you fellas might like it...


According to one Chinese military source, China has engaged in a total of 3790 recorded internal and external historical wars from 1100 BC (Western Zhou period) to 1911 (the end of the Qing Dynasty), ie. 3790 recorded wars in a timespan of 3011 years, an average of 1.26 wars per year from 1100 BC to 1911.

Such is China's long history of warfare and unending dynastic renewal , that it is not surprising that expert warriors such as strategists, tacticians, field generals, commandos, assassins, marksmen archers, elite calvary and anti-calvary infantry and of course swordsmen would emerge. But let us confine our discussion here to the swordsmen....

Based on 2000 year old historical records of the Han Dynasty, the earliest legendary swordsman was not a man but a woman.

Goujian, the King of the State of Yue (496-465 BC, late Spring and Autumn period) was supposedly to have been introduced by his loyal and able minister Fan Li to a young lady who was famous as a sword fighter. The story goes........

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The King asked her, " Of all the methods of fighting with the sword, which is the best ?"

She answered, " I was born in the depth of the forests and I grew up in the wilds where no other people have ventured. So there was no "method" for me and I followed no course of instruction, for I never ventured into the feudal fiefs. Secretly, I yearned for a true method of fighting and I practiced endlessly. I never learned it from anyone: I just realized one day that I could do it."

"And what method do you practice now?" asked the King.

"The method involves great subtlety and constant change [of movement]; its principles involve great mystery and depth. The method involves both "front doors and "back doors" as well as hard and soft aspects. Opening the "front door" and closing the "back door" closes off the soft aspect and bring the hard aspect to the fore.

"Whenever you have hand-to-hand combat, you need to have nerves of steel on the inside, but be totally calm on the outside. I must look like a demure young lady but fight like a startled tiger. My profile changes with the action of my body, and both follow my subconscious. Overshadow your adversary like the sun; but scuttle like a flushed hare. Become a whirl of silhouettes and shadows; shimmer like a mirage. Inhaling, exhaling, moving in, moving back out, keeping yourself out of reach, using your strategy to block out the adversary, vertical, horizontal, resisting, following, straight, devious, and all without a sound. With a method like this, one can match a hundred; a hundred men can match ten thousand. If Your Majesty wants to try me out, you can have a demonstration right away."

The King of Yue was overjoyed and immediately gave her the title "Daughter of Yue". Then he ordered the divisional commanders and crack troops to practice the new method so that they could pass on to the troops. From then on, the method was known as "The Daughter of Yue's Swordsmanship".


This excerpt is from the Han Dynasty work, "The Spring and Autumn Annals of Wu and Yue", and is found on pages 156-157 of the book "Chinese Archery", author and translator: Stephen Selby (HongKong University Press, 2000)
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As you can see from the passage, this lady's swordsmanship principles embody very much the essence of Sun Tzu's Art of War...to be devious, unpredictable and the constant use of the indirect approach ...... emphasizing mobility. Incidentally, Sun Tzu was a fellow contemporary of hers if she was indeed a real historical figure.

Around the same time that this legend was recorded in the Han Dynasty, there was a swordsmanship manual in circulation known as the "Way of the Sword" or "Jian Dao"(Japanese kanji pronunciation is "Kendo") in 38 chapters. Sadly, this book was lost, but one could get a rough idea of Han Dynasty swordsmanship through the passages recorded above.

The late Spring and Autumn period and the Warring States period of China were incredible times for the study of swordsmanship. The King of the State of Chao was recorded as having loved swordsmanship and having 3000 swordsmen at his palace, where they competed against each other in bare-blade swordfights before the King day and night. After a year, the casualty rate was a hundred...

Another famous swordsman/assassin who lived slightly after was the immortalized Jingke, whom everyone knows tried to assassinate the First Emperor Qin Shi Huang Di with a top quality dagger that was coated with poison. He failed, of course, and the rest is history. He was recorded in the history books as having loved book-learning and swordsmanship and had even engaged a fellow swordsman in a debate on the tactics and principles of swordsmanship.

Xiangyu, the famous warrior and contender (his title then was known as "the Hegemon of Chu") who fought against Liu Bang, the founder of the Han Dynasty, studied swordsmanship under a relative and complained that swordsmanship teaches one to fight one foe at a time, but he wanted to learn to fight ten thousand foes. His relative proceeded to teach him military strategy instead.


Below is a translation of the first recorded swordsmanship practice fight, between Cao Pei (who flourished in the Three Kingdoms period and ruled as Emperor of the Wei Dynasty, 220-226 AD) and a fellow general Dengzhan.

Cao Pei's father was the famous general Cao Cao, one of the main protagonists in the Ming classical military novel, Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Incidentally, Cao Cao and Cao Pei were also known to be sword connoisseurs, and there are first hand accounts and records surviving today that detail their commissions to their swordsmiths to forge exquisite swords for their personal use and collection. Cao Cao's commentary on Sun Tzu's Art of War, is still extant and was considered by past Chinese military scholars (including myself, ahem !!!) to be the best ever commentary on the Art of War throughout the various dynasties.

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Cao Pei: I had also learned swordsmanship, and had many teachers. Different places have differing styles of swordsmanship, but it is at the Capital (Luoyang City) where it really excels. At the Capital, during the time of (Han Dynasty) Emperors Huan and Ling, there was an official by the name of Wangyue who was correspondingly famous. A Mr Shi-ah from Henan province once said that he had studied under Wangyue, and had learned all his techniques. Hence, I proceeded to study under Shi-ah, and became thoroughly familiar with his swordsmanship style and skills.

In the past, I have had drinking sessions with Generals Liuxun, Fenwei and Dengzhan. All this while, I had long heard of Dengzhan's skills in empty hand techniques and in the five types of weapons, plus an ability to use his bare hands to engage opponents with bladed weapons. I also had long discussions with him on swordsmanship, and had criticized his swordsmanship skills as deficient. As I had loved swordsmanship and was skilful at it, Dengzhan requested for a (friendly) match.

As we were all in the midst of heavy drinking and chewing sugarcane stalks, we decided then to use sugarcane stalks as our swords. After walking down from the elevated platform to ground level, we started fighting..... it resulted in me hitting him on the shoulder 3 times. Everyone around laughed.... Dengzhan was not satisfied, and requested for a rematch. I told him that my movement was too hectic, not accurate enough to strike his middle chest area, which was why I decided to hit his shoulder instead. Dengzhan thereupon repeated his request for a rematch.

........As I had anticipated that he would aim for a rapid forward advance and strike me in the middle chest area, I pretended to move forward towards him, thereupon he rushed towards me. Retreating my steps suddenly, I then (simultaneously) proceeded to strike him on his head. Everyone on the elevated platform was stunned..... I proceeded to go back to my seat, and while laughing, said, "In the past, just as Yangqin made Chun Yuyi* give up his past methods of medicine, and taught him anew his own methods, I hope General Deng would let go of his old ways... and learn the correct Way."


* These 2 gentlemen were doctors....
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There are many other warriors who studied swordsmanship and were skilled in the Jian and Dao throughout the later dynasties. Try doing a Chinese character word search on the CD-ROM database of the "Official Dynastic Histories" and you will know what I mean.

In parting, I wish to highlight a prominent Chinese swordsman who lived in the early part of the 20th century, who went by the name Sun Yu Feng, and who was a famous martial artist of the equally famous Jing Wu Association. Sun Yu Feng was so reknown that he even had the nickname " the Saber King of Five (Chinese) Provinces". He was the master of a style called Luohan Swordsmanship (using a two-handed dao) and was known to have dispatched bandits and robbers with it. Another famous disciple of his, Huang Xiao Xia, had taught this form to Chinese soldiers and civilians in the anti-Japanese resistance movement in 1920s-30s to counter the invading Japanese soldiers' swordplay. This form is still practiced and taught in HongKong. How I wish I could fly down to HongKong* and learn from the instructors there. If only I can find the time........"


*I went to HongKong in February-March 2004 and met up with one Mr Lu, who was the head of the CMA school which teaches Sun Yu Feng's swordsmanship... He confirms that Sun Yu Feng's style is northern, using a willow leaf saber that could be used both single and double-handed... He went to to demo some cool moves...

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Quotable quote:
"To make use of the sword," Chuang Tzu said, "first make an empty feint. Then open your opponent by giving him an obvious advantage. Then strike, and get there first...."


Check out this story... not to be taken literally as it was romanticised and embellished with philosophical leanings typical of the Warring States period philosopher Chuang Tzu (died 275 BC)...

Chuang Tzu -- Chapter 30: Speaking of Swords

In the old days, King Wen of Chao delighted in swordsmanship. Swordsmen crowded around his gates and he had more than three thousand of them as retainers. Day and night, they came before him to have at each other, and the harvest of killed and wounded exceeded a hundred per year. But he loved it relentlessly, and within three years the whole country was in decline, and neighboring feudal lords all began plotting and scheming against it.

Crown Prince Kuei, seeing the calamity, summoned his retinue together and said, "I'll give a thousand in gold to anyone who can convince the king to stop all this swordplay."

The retainers replied, "Chuang Tzu can do it!"

So the crown prince sent one of his men to take a thousand in gold to Chuang Tzu. But the master declined the offer, returning with the man nevertheless for an audience with the crown prince.

"What do you ask of me that I should be rewarded with a thousand gold?"

"I've heard you are an enlightened sage, and I, your humble follower, humbly sent a thousand gold to support your entourage. If you are unwilling to accept it, how could I dare speak more of it?"

"I've heard that the crown prince wishes to use me," Chuang Tzu said, "to cut off the king's delight and his addiction. But if you send me to speak before the king, and I offend him, I will have failed you as well, and this body will be punished to death. What use will I have for gold then? And if I meet your end through speaking up, what in the land of Chao might I ask for that would not be granted?"

"That's so," the crown prince said, "But our king gives audience only to swordsmen."

"No problem," Chuang Tzu counted, "I'm good with swords."

"Good. But all the swordsmen who are granted an audience with the king have hair like brambles and bristling beards," the prince replied. "They wear loose caps with course straps dangling, and robes that cut short behind. They glare and tell war stories, and the king loves it. If you go to an audience dressed like one of those Confucian weaklings, you'll certainly offend him."

"If it pleases your highness, I'll submit to being dressed to kill."

Over the following days, Chuang Tzu got "dressed fit to kill" like a swordsman, then sought audience with the crown prince. The crown prince escorted him to an audience with the king. The king bared his sword's white blade as he awaited them. Chuang Tzu entered the palace doorway unhurriedly, and when he saw the king, he didn't bow.

The king demanded, "What have you got to show me now that you've gotten the crown prince to put you forward?"

"I've heard the great king delights in swords, so I've brought mine to the king's audience."

"And what special powers have you with the sword?"

"My sword? Put a man against me and my sword, one at every ten paces, and we'll stroll through them for a thousand li pausing,"

The king was impressed, "There's no match for you in All-under-heaven!"

"To make use of the sword," Chuang Tzu said, "first make an empty feint. Then open your opponent by giving him an obvious advantage. Then strike, and get there first. But let me demonstrate."

"You, sir, go and take your rest in your quarters," the king said, "Await my command. When the show is arranged, I will call for you."

For seven days, the king held combat. Some sixty swordsmen were killed or wounded. He finally chose five or six to submit themselves and their swords to the test before the court. Then he summoned Chuang Tzu. "Today we'll show these knights some honest swordsmanship," he smiled.

"I've been waiting for this," Chuang Tzu replied.

"Long sword or short, sir?" the king asked.

"Oh, any kind will do," Chuang Tzu smiled. "In fact, I brought three that might be fit for a king. If you don't mind, I'll speak of them before submitting them to the test. I have the Sword of the Son of Heaven, the Sword of the Feudal Lord, and the sword of the ordinary man."

"What's this Sword of the Son of Heaven like?" the king demanded.

"The Sword of the Son of Heaven takes the valley and the great stone wall of the state of Yen as its point, the realms of Ch'i and Tai for its blade, the lands of Chin and Way for its forte and foible. The states of Chou and Sung are its hilt, and Han and Wei are its pommel. It's securely wrapped by the four barbarian tribes and tied with the string of the Four Seasons. Its scabbard is the Sea of Po, and its belt is the Mountain of the Enduring Heart. The Five Elements give it order, and the example of the Power of Virtue provides its judgments. Yin and Yang draw this blade. Spring and summer grasp it. Autumn and winter are its use. Thrust, and nothing stands before it; parry high and none will rise above it; parry low, and nothing will get beneath it; parry to the side, and none will get around it. Above, it slices floating clouds; below, it pierces the stolid earth. Use this sword but once, and the feudal lords will see their master and All-under-heaven will submit. Such is the Sword of the Son of Heaven."

King Wen looked confused, as if he'd lost a trial with himself. "And the Sword of the Feudal Lord," he asked, "what about that?"

"The Sword of the Feudal Lord has knowing and courageous knights for its point, pure and chaste knights for its blade, worthy and excellent knights for its forte and foible, loyal and sage knights as its hilt, and bold warriors and bravos as its pommel. Thrust with this sword, and nothing stands before it. Parry high, and none will outreach it; parry low, and none will get under it; parry to the side, and none will get around it. Its highest reach rounds the heavens, following the lead of sun, moon, and stars. Its lowest reach squares with the earth, following the Four Seasons. In the middle it harmonizes with the song in the hearts of the people, bringing peace to every village. Use this sword but once, and in the shudder of the thunderbolt there will be none who do not submit to hear and abide by the commands of the lord. This is the Sword of the Feudal Lord."

"And what about the sword of the ordinary man?" King Wen asked.

"The swords of ordinary men-men with hair like brambles and with bristling beards? Loose-capped, with coarse straps dangling, with robes cut short behind? The kind that glare and relish telling war stories? That sword, when it thrusts, is met with a thrust. Parry high with it, and it lets in a sweep that lops heads from necks. Parry low, and it lets in a thrust that pierces liver or lung. Those who would strike with the sword of an ordinary man are nothing but fighting cocks. One morning they crow. One word from you, and they'll croak. They're no use to your realm. Now a Great King has the standing to become the Son of Heaven, yet you are addicted to the swords of ordinary men. Your servant dares to suggest that this is unworthy of you."

The king took Chuang Tzu in hand and led him into the High Hall. The chief chef prepared a meal, but the king just circled around it.

"Oh, Great King," Chuang Tzu urged, "sit quiet. Settle your ch'i. The sword business is done."

The king remained inside the palace for three months. The swordsmen submitted themselves to their swords in their own chambers.

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Just a recap....

"To make use of the sword," Chuang Tzu said, "first make an empty feint. Then open your opponent by giving him an obvious advantage. Then strike, and get there first...."

Cao Pei's description of his rematch with General Dengzhan:
"...... As I had anticipated that he would aim for a rapid forward advance and strike me in the middle chest area, I pretended to move forward towards him, thereupon he rushed towards me. Retreating my steps suddenly, I then (simultaneously) proceeded to strike him on his head. Everyone on the elevated platform was stunned..."


Dudes, isn't Cao Pei's tactical move reminiscent of Chuang Tzu... ??

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During the early Warring States period (500BC - 350 BC), bronze swords were on average slightly below 60 centimeters long. However, by the mid- to-late Warring States Period (350BC - 221BC), in my opinion, based on surviving excavated pieces, they began to evolve into longer weapons around 70-80 centimeters long, probably as a counter-response to the efforts of the States of Chu, Zhao, Han and Yan in mass-producing steel weapons, including swords, which could reach lengths of 90 centimeters - 1 meter. One of the Qin bronze swords finally reached a maximum length of about 94.8 centimeters, with a handle grip of around 21.6 centimeters, long enough for a 2-handed grip.

During those times, swords were available long or short, depending on the user's preference (as implied in the Chuang Tzu article) and could be used solo or with shields.

There are too many variables to consider to make any good reply to a question like that. But seen from a VERY narrow point of view, long weapons are generally better on a tactical level than short weapons in a straight fight as well as the fact that warring states era metallurgy wasn't sophisticated enough to construct wepaons of such length.

Hey Thomas, I've found some stupid ultranationalists using the pictures from your site to slam Japan and gloat about how great China was, on Tiexue.net: http://bbs2.tiexue.net/4621635/ShowThread.html

Shows how some people aren't interested in history for any reason other than to be chauvinistic.

The moderator on that forum should ask those guys to tone down on their nationalistic rhetoric...

ps: Don't forget my Sun Tzu book for 2 copies...

Nice article Thomas.

Not likely, since that forum is ultranationalistic in the first place.

PS. I'll try looking for the book maybe on Thursday. Do you have any more online info on it? For example the ISBN?

Hey Thomas Chen,

What did the pudao/podao (朴刀) of Ming and Song dynasties look like?

(I know I've asked this before, but I really want to get Thomas' opinion on this.)

That's pretty bad. They even put pics.tiexue on the pictures.

TC, you should at least make them remove them, for using the pics without your permission. That's pretty blasphemous, to use culture solely to bash others. It's something to be proud of, not a weapon.

Yeah, Thomas - I'd also like your feedback on the articles I quoted in my latest post at the Podao thread.

I don't think they 'stole' those images. I have seen them on a number of books. It is possible that they scanned them from somewhere else. Obviously TC himself got to pics from somewhere. While it is still copyright violation from some source, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt where they got it.

But to use them all in the same post, at the same time, makes me suspect strongly that that person came across them all in the same place

I personally find a bit of selfish nationalistic satisfaction in thinking "dao=katana's granddaddy" (or something to that extent) but it shouldn't be used to dis Japanese.

I'd rather see it used as a way to find more common ground between China and Japan. The cultures's histories are very entwined, though relations in the last few hundred years have been terrible.

It should be a source of comradarie, not to cause more troubles.

Maybe CHF can work to build a world where that happens everywhere.