Emperor Tang Taizong killed his brothers during the palace coup of Xuanwu. Was it necessary for him to do so in order to gain power? His brothers had plotted to kill him though..

Some historians argue that if Taizong had not done so, he would not have become an emperor and Tang dynasty would not be so great..do you think this is true?

I think his killing of his brothers was necessary in order to gain the throne. Even though it was a very bad thing to do, it would be somewhat impossible for him to become an emperor because the Chinese at that time still think only the oldest son should succeed to the father's inheritance. :( So there would be a small chance for him to win over his older brother in inheriting the throne from his father.

I've been wondering if Emperor Taizong's achievement isn't really great in history, would the historian's critique of him be that great? I mean, most historians agreed that he was a great emperor, but supposed his achievements wasn't as great as it supposed to be, would historians use this 'plot of killing his brothers' to criticise him as a cruel scheming person?

Personally, I think the rivalry between Li ShiMin and Li JianCheng left no room for anyone coming out second best. Each would constantly be a threat to each other.

Yes Li shi min was not the oldest of the three, therefore if he did not kill his brothers he might not have gotten the throne.

Jiang Chen did plot to poison li shi min, and that almost killed him. For that, I say Shi Min has no choice but to kill him, but the fact that he killed his whole family is a part of the Chinese custom to kill the kin of the fallen enemy so they would not be a threat. This isn't just Li Shi Min's doing, almost all good emperors would do the same. Its like a culture.
Shi Le of Zhao of the northern dynasties once discovered his son plotted against him, he ordered his whole kin killed, that included his grandson (which he actually liked). When that grandson was about to be executed, he saw Shi Le and dragged his cloth crying, Even the ruthless Shi Le was moved and ordered his grandson spared, but it was too late. This did some emotional damage to him later. As you can see its a chinese custom, not just what some bad emperors would do. In fact Li Shi Min was far better than Shi Le, consider he didn't kill his son when he plotted against him. In fact he even considered to spare general Hou Jun Ji's life who plotted with the prince!

I think its a really bad culture. But maybe that's because in our psyche the smallest social structure is the family and not the individual...

Tang Taizong's achievements may have been slightly exaggerated because he controlled the compilation of the materials used to edit his official records.

Would the court historians dare write anything that would damage his reputation?

Anyways I think killing his brothers at the palace gates was necessary because based on what I heard, Li Jiancheng and Li Yuanji were plotting against him and he had to take action as soon as possible to save his own neck. Besides that, Li Shimin also wanted power, and it is natural for human beings to want power, even today.

hmm think ..
this is definitely needed..
coz his brother are aleady plotting against him..
he knew that his brother won't never let him out alive ..
even they managed to banish him to qin state..

Li Shi Min did the right choice, at least he managed to bring tang dynasty to the height that no emperor had even managed.

if killing some one of ur kin to save ur only ***
then u consider wrong
but to save the whole nation
i think this is a correct choice

There can be no other way. How often in history you can see or read that by giving your enemy a chance, you often end up destroying yourself. Think Xiang Yu and Liu Pang.

It is far more common than most think about that siblings kills one another off in dynastic wars, both in Asia and Europe, in fact the inheritance laws that were common in much of north western Europe that all sons should share equally, were a belatet attempt of to starve of intracine warfare among clans and families, something the tribe they belonged to, did not need since they were constantly surrounded by beligent tribes that would wiped them out (And did. Warfare among the Germannic tribes were endemic and for keeps IE the loser were removed from the history of the world.)
But as far as i know the Osmans were the only one to actually have instutionalized this concept that the oldest brother HAD to kill of his siblings when he took the throne, no buts or maybe's they were dead(Strangeld) when there were a new Sultan, the only ekseptions were when the ruling Sultan did not yet have any sons, in that case one or two at the most of his youngest brothers were keept alive until succesion were insure.

- And no more than Earth has two suns, will Asia bear two kings. - Alexander
I loved this phrase when I watched the movie. Chinese counterpart would be 一国无二主，一山无二虎。
It was unfortunate that Li Shiming had to kill his own brother, obviouly in his point of view, it was necessary. We cannot judge him by our standards, after all they were not living in a democracy. BTW, during a lecture I had, a professor of ours put the possibility that the story of Li Shiming been poisoned was fake, it was written under the order of Li Shiming himself so to legitimate his actions, and we know that history books during Tang dynasty were heavly controled by the government. The lucky thing was that Li Shiming turned out to be a "not bad" emperor, otherwise, he would be know as one of the worst emperors in China and the first charge would be killing his own brothers.

So basically if you are not the first son of the Sultan, you are pretty much heading towards a death sentence.

Presiesly. i dont think anybody can imagine what that did to the palace intriques in the harem, but paranoia was a survival trait not a sickness, and some of the women that this system forstert would give any ruler the shivers, there was absolutly nothing they would not do to keep their own sons alive, incl killing of any threats (IE other sons and their mothers). On the other hand the ruling Sultan could ekspect a incredible vigiliant harem to serve him in political and underhanded intelliigence sence, since the longer he lived the greater the chances the any single son would have of surviving the death of his older siblings due to sickness and accidents (Both natural and otherwise).

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

It is dubious whether Tang Taizong had actually altered historical records or not, so I am just going to stick with the facts here.

It was absolutely necessary for him to kill his brothers since the intense rivalry would not allow anyone to prevail at second best. We cannot blame him for killing his brothers since they were the ones who made the first move. It was clear that they cannot live in harmony with Tang Taizong even when Li Jian Cheng was already made the crown prince. The reason for the dispute was because Crown Prince Li Jiang Cheng had always been frightened that his younger brother would be more in favor with their father, and replace him as the heir. Li Jian Cheng was trying to harm Tang Taizong in every way he can. In this case, Tang Taizong was really an innocent victim. So, Tang Taizong had no other choice, but to kill his brothers. Hence, it was not his fault at all.

If you are sad that Tang Taizong had to kill his brother, then try thinking of it this way. The Xuanwu gate incident was inevitable! So, would not you have rather the victor being Tang Taizong than Prince Li Jian Cheng?

Personally, I am really against the practice of killing the entire family. I can never think of any good reasons for doing so until Sephodwyrm reminded me that the smallest social structure is the family, and not the individual.

Xie Xie to Sephodwyrm!

Dear Le Khac Minh Giao, I agree with you that Li Shimin's hands were forced and XuanWumen was a necessary evil.

Your question regarding if Li Jian Cheng had won the fight, what would the situation, is a pertinent one. Similarly I too, have also a question, what if Li Shimin had not been the Tang Taizong that he was, but instead was a wastrel and despotic, would we be so kind in our appraisal of Li Shimin's action at XuanWumen?

He would be Yang Guang # 2.

But I don't think he's that stupid to repeat mistakes.

Zunjing de Centaur,

I think that you have asked a very good question, and Sephodwyrm really brought up a good point about Tang Taizong being the second Sui Yangdi if he was not a great Emperor.

Of course, if Tang Taizong was a horrible ruler, then we would have to analyze the XuanWu gate incident in a different light. I do believe that we can evaluate someone through their actions. If Tang Taizong was a tyrant, then we would have to consider the possibility that his brothers might have made the first move under his manipulation. Maybe he somehow forced his brothers to instigate the XuanWu gate incident, so that he would have a legitimate reason to kill them. As he was the second son, he would have had to fight for the throne either way. But since Tang Taizong was a benevolent ruler, we would think that he would at least try to be nice to his brothers. We are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he did not stir up the XuanWu gate incident.

About Sui Yangdi, there were suspicions that he killed his father and usurped the throne. Maybe he really did not commit such a crime, but since he was such a ruthless Emperor, people assume that he was very capable of pulling off something like that.

Similarly, people suspect that Wu Zetian murdered her baby princess just to blame it on Empress Wang, when there is really no solid proof on this issue. If Wu Zetian was a submissive wife, a loving mother, and a virtuous woman, then nobody would think that she could have done such a thing. The fact that she exiled or killed her sons showed that it would be no surprise that she was willing to sacrifice her daughter as well.

Back to Tang Taizong, I personally think that if he was a despot, then people would have focused more on how bad he was to the people, and be less concerned with the XuanWu gate incident. Also, I think people bring up the XuanWu gate incident just to prove that even a great Emperor like Tang Taizong had flaws. It is still sad to think that you had to kill your brothers in order to become a great Emperor.

Well, that is just my personal opinion, so any questions and comments are greatly appreciated!

Xie Xie,

I voted yes because LI shi Min do it for the sake of Tang Dynastly ,his 2 brothers are bad guy i personal think ,have he not kill his brother the Tang empire will not last long ,particular Tang will conquer by Tujue as well ,with LI jing around , LI shimin do the right thing .

Andrew Eisenburg of Northeastern Illinois University ( http://www.neiu.edu/~history/eisen.htm ) wrote an article in 1994 ("Kingship, Power, and the Hsuan-wu Men Incident of the Tang", in T'oung Pao LXXX) arguing that the Xuanwu Gate Coup was instigated by Li Yuan himself to ensure that the strongest and most ruthless contender for the position of heir apparent would get it.

His conclusion: "Tang Gaozu purposely arranged for his three eldest sons to compete with each other, and ultimately, to endeavor to kill each other in a bid for the position of heir apparent. Li Shimin (later known as Tang Taizong) emerged the winner. In order to ensure political stabiliy and continuity in imperial policy and personnel, Gaozu 'retired' in the eighth month of 626 and remained at the palace center for another three years, before relocating to the suburban Taian Palace."

Eisenburg has three starting points:
1. He accepts the revisionist approach that Li Yuan, and not Li Shimin, was the key decision-maker from the time of the rebellion against the Sui government until his 'retirement'. He was not pushed into rebellion by Li Shimin, and was a forceful leader himself. So Eisenburg finds it unlikely that Li Yuan was passive in the face of the factional fighting between his three sons, placidly accepted Li Shimin's act of fratricide at the Xuanwu Gate, and then allowed himself to be forced into retirement by Li Shimin.

2. In North Asian (i.e. steppe) regimes, violent free-for-all civil wars to determine the most competent successor to the rulership were common. Eisenburg accepts the argument by Thomas Barfield and the late Joseph Fletcher (scholars studying the relations between nomad societies and China) that the Xuanwu Gate Coup reflected the influence of Xianbei or Turk political culture on the Tang dynasty. He argues that Li Yuan avoided a large-scale conflict between his sons by carefully overseeing the contest and setting the parameters such that in the end, only one or two of the sons would die instead of having massive bloodshed between armies led by them.

3. In the Northern Wei and Northern Qi dynasties of the Age of Fragmentation, two relatively young emperors had 'retired' (i.e. taken the position of Taishanghuang) and handed their thrones over to heirs still under ten years of age. This was done, Eisenburg argued in another article in 1991, so that the 'retired emperors' could oversee a stable succession, allowing the new child-emperor to acquire legitimacy and experience before his father died and left him to fend for himself. The idea is that father-to-son succession was not well-established in Xianbei politics, and that challenges to the heir could be expected from other members of the imperial clan unless the father was around to protect him.

Eisenburg's further argument is that in the Tang, there was a slightly different approach to retiring emperors in that the heirs whose fathers retired were all mature adults. Li Yuan's motivation for handing the throne to Li Shimin was to develop a system of 'power-sharing' between a senior emperor and junior emperor, so that the junior emperor had time to gain the loyalty of the senior emperor's 'old guard' of officials and generals. After his retirement, Li Yuan actually remained active in court affairs until 629 when he moved to the Taian Palace in the suburbs of Chang'an. This ensured a smooth and stable transition of power between father and son.

Do you find this theory convincing?

I always wondered about the emperors handing the thrones to young sons when they were still well in health etc.

But there's a few doubts about Eisenburg's theory.

First, why appoint a Crown Prince?

Second, there were more than sufficient precedents during AoF of rivalries between brothers fracturing the kingdoms. Eisenburg suggested Li Yuan was controlling the situation to prevent it from reaching that point, but given that the Tang regime was newly established with various regions still not quite fully subdued, was the risk worth it?

Some further quotes from Eisenburg addressing your two questions:

1. "Immediately after Gaozu ascended the throne, Jiancheng was designated as the heir apparent. From the ritual perspective, this was the correct thing to do. However, with three adult sons present, all of whom could claim to have made significant contributions to the establishment of the Tang, all of whom were intensely jealous of each other, and all of whom had their own staffs and followers, ritual legitimacy was insufficient. Gaozu was confronted by a very delicate situation."

2. "The approach of Gaozu was very risky, but under conditions where there were a limited number of relatively legitimate competitors for the throne, the encouragement of a limited free-for-all ensured that the survivor would be the most competent and ruthless political manipulator and thus eminently qualified to become emperor."

hi Yun,

it seems that Eisenburg has a very interesting theory here... i would like to pose a few questions..




1. if it was Li Yuan s idea to put forward the struggle between Li Shimin and his brothers, dun you think no matter what conventional history has to say of him, he definitely got the situation out of control and backfired on himself... he played almost no further part in political history and was regarded by posterity as a mediocre ruler... no matter what he planned, i find it hard to believe that the endding was what he intended

2. when you mentioned about the fierce kin struggle for succession in various steppe cultures, i could n't help but looked back at the various xianbei and xiongnu regimes in the AoF era.. of which Tang emerged as the last and most successful of them.... if my memory do not fail me, while indeed there are plenty of such srtruggles, i do not remember any that took place under a watchful eye of the incumbent ruler... indeed, if such types of struggle occurs, usually the incumbent is eliminated as well, not just designated successors and likely competitors... seen in this light, li shimin s allowing of his father to 'retire' seemed pretty benevolent...
3. without 3rd party primary sources how much li shimin 'appropriated' history wrt to his father and the xuanwumen affair is still pretty hard to speculate

4. one struggle vaguely similar to this and haoppening just a few decades later : the 乙巳の変 Itsushi Affair) seemed the closest i can relate to xuanwumen

Interesting points.

1. It's hard to choose among the three. If Li Yuan made the competition for his 2 sons, wouldn't he decide not to designate Li Jiancheng to be crown prince?

2. Just popped out from simple mind. If Li Shimin found out this plot, wouldn't he kill his father after he became emperor?

Similar approach (competition) was used in this modern era, i.e. when selecting the next CEO of GE, to choose the best among 3 candidates to be successor of Jack Welch, the legendary CEO of GE.

There wouldn't have been any point for him to do so.

If Li Shimin was anointed as Crown Prince instead, the contest for succession would still be there, and something still has to be done about Li Jiancheng and Li Yuanji.

How likely was it for Li Shimin to convince his brothers that he would make a better emperor than either of them, persuade them to support him and pledge their loyal dedicated service to the empire instead?

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Hmm, it is certainly an interesting topic worthy of more discussions if a new theory had emerged! I must admit this new theory was so different than the other two speculations.

Some people believe Li JianCheng’s accomplishments were seriously undermined by historians with the insistence of Tang Taizong since Tang Taizong was the only Emperor who requested to see the historical records himself and his wish was granted. However, we really don’t have any proofs regarding any aspects of this sibling rivalry being altered by later historians. Nevertheless, it is always a great idea to question everything you read, and never completely trust any sources.

Others put most of the blame on Tang Gaozu since he was so indecisive and was giving out mixed signals. The worst part was that he practically did nothing to prevent the factional fighting among his sons. Before establishing the Tang Dynasty, Tang Gaozu had promised the throne to his second son because he had made the most contributions. However, after ascending to the throne, Tang Gaozu conveniently forgot his promise because he did not wish to go against traditions and create a second son the Crown Prince. After creating Li JianCheng as the Crown Prince, Tang Gaozu continuously entrusted Li Shimin with many major court affairs and fighting a lot of crucial battles. These actions undermined Li JianCheng’s position as the heir apparent, thus, intensifying the jealousy and rivalries among his sons.

Eisenburg has a very interesting theory here; therefore, I would like to pose some questions and make a few analyses.

I agree Tang Gaozu was placed in a very delicate situation; however, it was really no different than the problems also encountered by other dynastic founders.

1.] The traditional view was that Li Shimin initially insisted on starting a rebellion himself and replaced the Sui Dynasty. However, Li Shimin was far too young to win respect of other followers. Hence, he forced his father into the rebellion by tricking him into sleeping with two of Sui Yangdi’s concubines.

I have never read any revisionist versions regarding Li Yuan as a forceful leader himself and rebelled partly because he also had ambitions of becoming the next Emperor. If this was the case, then he would have been a shrewd politician; therefore, it was rather unlikely for him to not be so active in his sons’ battles for the throne. It would be even harder to believe that he would have abdicated in favor of his son so easily. However, can we really trust this revisionist version?

2.] Yes, primogeniture was practically a Han Chinese custom. Tribes living in nomadic societies did not really follow the same practice. Nomads were a lot more democratic in choosing the next leader. The next leader usually had to work really hard to obtain his position and then do the same thing to maintain it. There were far less rigid rules in nomadic societies. That is why Tang Gaozu had promised to make his second son the Crown Prince as an incentive for making the most contributions as it was not such a radical idea. Well, the Xuan Wu gate incident did result in only the deaths of Li JianCheng, Li Yuanji, and their followers rather than a large scale conflict with massive bloodshed between armies. This consequence was very fortunate for the Tang Dynasty. However, this was not due to Tang Gaozu’s careful intentions, but because Li Shimin was far more talented than his brothers; hence, he was able to organize his army more efficiently and had better strategies. Honestly, his brothers stood no chance against him since this was a head to head battle, so it was impossible for them to use dirty tricks.

3.] Hmm, I believe the idea that an Emperor should retire early is a wonderful one! I mean even Emperors cannot fight old age, which is one of the saddest things! When you are old, you are more likely to make silly/stupid mistakes that you would not normally do. If an old Emperor retired early, then he can ensure that he won’t be making unintentional errors due to old age, and live peacefully for the remainder of his life. If Tang MingHuang had retired a little earlier, then the prosperity of the Tang Dynasty might have lasted even longer.

It is also a really thoughtful idea to have an Emperor abdicate in favor of his immature son. Since young Emperors occupying the throne were one of the reasons for usurpations by other family members or major officials, it is really wise for a young Emperor to give the throne to his young son while he was still alive. This way, the Grand Emperor can protect his young son and cement his position in the political court.

However, that was not the case for the Tang Dynasty. Some sources stated that Li Shimin forced his father into an early retirement. I highly doubt that was the issue since all the contenders for the throne were already eliminated. Besides, people would have probably been more than frightened by Li Shimin’s fratricide; hence, his position was already stable. IMO, Tang Gaozu’s abdication was due to his grief over losing his two sons and his incapability in preventing this whole thing from happening.

There had been more than an adequate amount of examples in showing the disputes over the throne among the princes would more often than not result in a rapid decline for the empire as several factions were formed. Of course, competitions can bring out the best of everyone; however, it was way too risky to purposefully set up conflicts for the throne just to select the most suitable successor as it would most likely result in bloodshed, especially since the Tang Dynasty was not fully established with a secured position. Also, I really don’t think Tang Gaozu was astute enough to have this plan in mind.

Lifezard had brought up a really good point when stating that when struggles occurred, the Emperor was likely to be killed along with the heir apparent. Hey, if the heir apparent survived, then he might have started plotting against his father, so that he could quickly ascend to the throne and secured his footing.

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Snowybeagle Xian Sheng,

Hmm, do you really think that even if Li Shimin was appointed as the heir apparent instead, there would still be the contest for succession since Li JianCheng and Li YuanJi would have never settled for peace?

Well, I have posted a similar question in the other thread; however, I have received no responses. Hence, I will repost my question in here for you again.

What if Tang Gaozu were to create Li Shimin as the crown prince right at the beginning? Would this have ceased the Xuanwu Gate incident from occurring, or would it only cause the killing of brothers to start sooner?

Xie Xie,

Mind you there was no way that Li Shi Min would be appointed as heir in the beginning. Such move would be illegitimate and would result in bigger conflict.

The whole conflict arose when the three princes had they own systems and power bases and Li Yuan could not resolve that. Making the situtation worse, Li Shi Min contributed the most to the empire which made the position of Li Jian Cheng uneasy as Li Shi Min was the conquerer and conquerer had a lot of legitimacy.

Zunjing de Ashura My Liege ,

Hmm, are you sure that it would be considered illegitimate to initially make Li Shimin the Crown Prince? I recall from a reading that Tang Gaozu did not officially proclaim who would be the Crown Prince until a month after his ascension to the throne. This delay was due to the fact that he was contemplating over whether or not to create Li Shimin as the Crown Prince. He eventually decided against that idea. However, the fact that he would consider making his second son the heir proved that some officials would support this decision as the legitimate one. Of course, according to the law of primogeniture, Li JianCheng was automatically the heir. With this in mind, I wonder what Li Yuan was thinking when he promised the throne to Li Shimin in the first place. Li Yuan was certainly sending mixed signals to his sons.

Xie Xie,

The charge that Li Jiancheng poisoned Li Shimin is non-conclusive, at best biased, and at worse fabricated. Shimin didn't die, decribed to have had the physical symptom that could have been caused by typical food poisoning amongst other things.

Neither is the claim that Li Jiancheng and Li Yuanji "initiated" the conflict conclusive. Prior to Xuanwu incident, the only official event that set light on the rivalry was ... Li Shimin being reprimanded by Li Yuan for vying for the throne.

The theory that Li Yuan was a strong emperor in control is also questionable. During this internal conflict, the emperor's court was irrelevant compared to the rivalling partisants. Once Shimin prevailed, Li Yuan became, for lack of better word, a puppet, whose fate rested entirely in his son's hand.

Li Yuan did not promise the throne to Li Shi Min. There's no way he could do that not only due to the imperial rule, but Li Jian Cheng had his own power base, which he estbalished during the war. He did contribute to the empire too. "Tang Gaozu did not officially proclaim who would be the Crown Prince until a month after his ascension to the throne". You mean the throne of Tang dyansty or Tang kingdom? Li Yuan was originally King of Tang serving under Sui. Li Jian Cheng was the heir by default in both case. Looking at ZZTJ, there is a passage that says Li Yuan wanted to make Li Shi Min his heir. I think this is dubious and should be seen as propaganda for Li Shi Min.

Zunjing de Metronomad,

Hmm, from the official sources that I have read, Li JianCheng and Li Yuanji had tried to poison Li Shimin on two occasions; one through poisonous wine during a banquet, the other by tricking him into riding a wild horse.

It was also clearly stated that Li JianCheng and Li Yuanji initiated all the fightings by becoming extremely weary of Lin Shimin’s growing power and popularity. Li Shimin was reprimanded by his father for vying for the throne only because it was a setup by his brothers and his father’s concubines. Li Shimin got on the bad side of his stepmothers by declining their request(s) to make their family members high court officials.

I highly doubt that Tang Gaozu was a strong Emperor in control of everything. Li Yuan’s role in history have usually been undermined as others considered Li Shimin as the co-founder of the Tang Dynasty. However, Tang Gaozu deserved some credits on his own; therefore, he was definitely not a useless Emperor. Well, some sources indicated that Li Shimin forced his father to abdicate in his favor; however, I really don’t believe it since there is no need for him to do so. I mean all the contenders were eliminated and his father was probably frightened to death after Li Shimin’s fratricide. Hence, Li Shimin’s position was secured.

Well, this was all the information that I have gotten from a book. I am just wondering if you would deem these as reliable? Are you having some speculations that history had been altered in favor of Li Shimin? Or have I thought that I have read an official history book, but it is really just partly fictional?

Xie Xie,

The horse-riding trap was just as impossible to prove. Shimin was a renounced horseman, at one point or another, he must have been familiar with untamed horses

The "slanderous harem" charge is conspicuously similar to Yang Guang's plot to unseat Yang Yong. It could have happened, sure, but it could also be made up/exaggerated in attempts to repaint Li Shimin as passive victim of his "evil" brothers. We do not know what really happened (one-sided hear-says aren't evidents), we only know Li Yuan scolded Li Shimin for harboring haughty followers hungry for power and influence (Du Yuhui, Feng Xuanling, et al), and his own naked ambition, to paraphrase, "you think you can make the son-of-heaven by your own will?".

Getting back to the point, it was in Jiancheng's interest to maintain status-quo, Shimin's interest to upset it. Furthermore, their same-mother younger brother, Yuanji (meaning he too had a stake in the succession struggle because he would have been next in line) decided to side with Jiancheng rather than Shimin (it would have served Yuanji better to upset status-quo, assuming he was interested in power) suggested that Shimin's behaviors prior to Xuanwu gate were more brazen than the glossed over version by his own historians.

From Jiancheng's point of view, he did not need to get Shimin killed, he only need to remove Shimin from his military command to lessen the risk of losing in case of civil war. That was what happened. Jiancheng lobbied to have Shimin's men tranferred to Yuanji's command in a campaign against Dujue. This directly triggerred the Xuanwu Gate incident, when, out of desperation, Shimin chased and killed Jiancheng with his own hand. History could have been written entirely different had Jiancheng survived that single desperate arrow

This episode left more than a hint of guilt in Shimin's conscience that showed in his selection of his own successor.



I wouldn't call it fictional. Facts-cherry-picking and spinning is not a modern invention.

Zunjing de Ashura My Liege ,

Hmm, are you sure of this? Based on some official sources that I have read, Li Yuan promised the throne to Li Shimin on two occasions. The traditional view was that Li Shimin was able to persuade his father into staging a rebellion by tricking him into sleeping with Sui Yangdi’s concubines. Right before the capture of Chang An, Li Yuan promised the throne to Li Shimin if his son was able to complete his mission. Being a gifted military commander, Li Shimin launched many successful campaigns resulting in capturing Chang An in 617. However, one year later, when Li Yuan ascended to the throne, he conveniently forgot that he had promised to make Li Shimin the heir. His main reason for creating Li JianCheng as the heir was to avoid disputes over succession.

Despite founding the Tang Dynasty in 618, the throne was quite unstable as there were a few other rebel leaders also making claims for the throne. In 621, Li Yuan quickly dispatched Li Shimin to fight many military campaigns against all the rebel leaders. The was the second time Li Yuan promised the throne to Li Shimin if he had the ability to reunify the whole Empire under the Tang regime. I really have no idea what this king was thinking right now?! I mean he already had a Crown Prince. How can he depose the original Crown Prince just because a younger prince had contributed more to the state? Of course, Li Shimin succeeded in defeating all the remnants and reunified the country; however, not surprisingly, Li Yuan could not keep his promise since he was too cowardly to go against traditions.

Were you not aware of these two occasions where Li Shimin was twice promised the throne, but twice got the raw end of the deal?

Well, Li Yuan’s three sons all made a lot of contributions for the Empire; however, Li Shimin was much more talented and made the most contributions.

You are right; when Li Yuan placed Yang You on the throne as the puppet Emperor, he himself was also made Tang Wang with Li JianCheng as the heir apparent, Li Shimin as Qin Gong, and Li Yuanji as Qi Gong. Of course, being the heir apparent, Li JianCheng would be automatically created as the Crown Prince when Li Yuan became Emperor. However, Li Yuan had always remembered his promise to Li Shimin; hence, he contemplated on what he had to do after ascending to the throne. Apparently, Li Yuan felt that he had to take care of his eldest son; hence, Li JianCheng was created as Crown Prince instead.

These were the “facts” that I have read from two books. Do you think they are unreliable?

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Metronomad,

Yeah, since Li Shimin was a renounced horseman, it seems rather unlikely that his brothers would use a wild horse to kill him. From what I have read, the horse-riding trick was a complete failure since Li Shimin did not have too much trouble taming the horse. However, the poison wine was almost a success since Li Shimin coughed up blood afterward.

Why do you think these two incidents were unproven?

Yeah, with an old Emperor and younger concubines, the slanderous rumors between princes and concubines were quite common. Do you think the image of Li Shimin being a passive victim of his two evil brothers is one-sided hear-says?

I personally don’t think it would have served Li Yuanji better if he decided to support Li Shimin instead of Li JianCheng since Li Shimin was more talented and ambitious. I have always felt that Li Yuanji had his own agenda. He wanted to make an alliance with Li JianCheng to get rid of the more popular Li Shimin. After this was done, he would instantly turn his back on Li JianCheng and snatch the position of Crown Prince. IMO, Li Yuanji was by far the worst out of Li Yuan’s three principal sons.

Well, I think the rivalry between Li JianCheng and Li Shimin left no room for anyone to survive as the second best. Hence, Li JianCheng would have killed Li Shimin whenever he had the chance. I surmise the victory at the Xuan Wu gate proved that Li Shimin was by far superior to his brothers.

From the book that I have read, during the Xuan Wu gate incident, Li Shimin was so reluctant to make any moves. Li Yuanji was personally shooting arrows after arrows at Li Shimin. Luckily, Li Shimin managed to escape all of them. During the turmoil, Li Shimin placed an arrow in his bow preparing to shoot it at Li Yuanji; however, he still could not bear aiming at his younger brother. Then, the black face general (Sorry, but I forgot his English name) snapped Li Shimin’s arm causing the arrow to fly in Li Yuanji’s position. Li Yuanji was able to dodge this arrow, but it killed Li JianCheng instead. Afterward, Li Yuanji went down on his knee to beg Li Shimin for forgiveness. However, when Li Shimin was not looking, Li Yuanji tried to ambush him from behind, but ended up running into Li Shimin’s sword and was killed himself.

How do you feel about this summary of the Xuan Wu gate incident? Was it even remotely closed to what you have imagined?

I have another question. How did Li Shimin’s guilt for the Xuan Wu gate incident show during his own selection of the Crown Prince?

Xie Xie,

I know where the "promises" came from, I've read them myself in ZZTJ. Problem is such promises were not the best of source, as we know Li Shi Min killed his brothers and got the throne for himself. He probably did a lot other stuff to reduce opposition as possible, and writting the "promises" in was a common trick.

I am quite sure none of this was based on historical sources. Sui-Tang Yanyi, maybe?

Zunjing de Ashura My Liege ,

Hmm, are you trying to say that a truly virtuous person could never kill his siblings or any blood-related relatives under any circumstances? Well, I am just horrible with abbreviations! Hence, can you please spell out the full title for ZZTJ just for this one time?

Do you doubt Li Shimin’s character just because was victorious at the Xuan Wu gate incident, murdered his brothers, and eventually ascended to the throne? I kind of don’t understand where this is coming from. I mean it is extremely reasonable to question everything you read, especially since history books were written by the victors. However, do we really have any good reasons to suspect that Tang Taizong altered some facts in official records to redeem his bad deeds?

Did not all the Chinese governments heavily control historical documents and the printing press? If this is the case, then what was so special regarding the Tang Dynasty, and especially Li Shimin?

Xie Xie,

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Hmm, I surmise this version of the Xuan Wu gate incident portrayed Li Shimin in such a favorable light that this was pretty laughable. Hehehe! So, are you sure that this was a fictional account of the Xuan Wu gate incident? Nah, this part was not from Sui Tang Yan Yi since I am already aware of the historical invalidities of that novel. This was actually a summary of a segment I have read from a book called “Tang Taizong Li Shimin.” Have you read this book yet? It described Li Shimin as the perfect king and a passive victim of his evil brothers. The feuds among the three brothers began long before the forging of the Tang Dynasty. Hence, it should not be a surprise that they were willing to kill each other for the throne. However, Li Shimin never made the first move.

Xie Xie,

Virtuous? Now you are in my territory. i never doubt that Li Shi Min was a great emperor, and his killing of his borthers and forcing his father down the throne were justifiable only in a political sense. Romulus killed even his twin brother Remus and it has been said that it was a virtuous act. Yes evil deeds are justifiable in the political world. ZZTJ is Zi Zhi Tong Jian.

I don't doubt Li Shi Min' character but I dout what's been written in the books. It was not necessary for Li Shi Min to alter history; his subordinates would do that for him. There was no reason for Li Yuan to make Li Shi Min heir. The said promises seem like a ratonalization rather that a legitimacte base. Even Li Shi Min was somehow forced to make Li Zhi his heir, who was not the first choice. If Li Yuan wanted to make Li Shi Min heir, he would not ask but stripped Li Jian Cheng his position right away. Once such question was asked there would be no point of return as the matter was just too important. Li Shi Min would not have the chance to refuse. That's why the promises are dubious.

Most Chinese classical sources about the lives of emperors are not reliable.

Zunjing de Ashura My Liege ,

Well, I am happy to have hit your territory! That way, we can generate more discussions! Hehehe!

Hmm, I have a slightly different view on Li Shimin. I know he was a wonderful Emperor; however, I seriously doubt that he was the greatest Emperor of Chinese History like others have raved for him. He certainly was not the best Emperor. However, I never have a shadow of a doubt that his fratricide was not justified! You are right; the definition of “virtuous” in the political world is completely different than the regular definition. Here is a quote I found online regarding King Taejong of the Korean Joseon Dynasty: “King Taejong, the third monarch of the Choson Kingdom (reign: 1401- 1418), was decidedly ruthless in seizing and maintaining his power. For a superb nation builder, however, such characteristics are not regarded as a drawback but a rare virtue.” Even though we are not discussing Korean History here, the same concept can really apply to any political leaders; ancient or modern.

Hmm, I surmise we have reasons to somewhat doubt Li Shimin’s character since not all princes can bring themselves to actually kill their brothers. Yeah, an Emperor did not really have to do anything. All he had to do was to dictate all the instructions to his subordinates. Of course, they would want to glorify their leaders as it was also in their best interests.

I agree there is not really a good reason why Li Yuan would want to make Li Shimin his heir. That is why I have always doubted the real capabilities of Li Yuan.

How was Li Shimin forced to make Li Zhi the Crown Prince? This was because Li Zhi was the only surviving son of Empress Zhangsun; thus, he would be the next Crown Prince by default. This was the regulation for the Tang Dynasty; however, I find it so ridiculous! Tang Taizong had 10 other sons; nevertheless, everyone acted like he only had the three sons born by Empress Zhangsun. I know she was such a virtuous Empress, but that is no reason to exclude other sons from succession. Even Li Shimin could not have defied social conventions by creating his third son born by a concubine the Crown Prince, whom he felt would have made a much more capable Emperor.

So, you think the promises were dubious because Li Yuan was not stupid enough to back out of a decision that was deemed as the most appropriate one?

Xie Xie,

Li Shi Min wanted to make Li Ke the heir but the ministers opposed to that. The promises are dubious because no one in the right mind would ask such thing. If he wanted to he would make Li Shi Min heir anyway. Asking is really asking for trouble.

Zunjing de Metronomad,

Thank you for your compliment; however, I really don’t seem to know everything as it can only be a dream for me! Hehehe!

I am so sorry I have asked so many insipid questions that irritate you! Of course, I can always look for books and then read them myself, but that is not the best way for me to learn. I am less fortunate than a lot of the members here, who are fluent in Chinese. Other than English, I am only fluent in Vietnamese. Hence, I have to rely heavily on the Vietnamese-translated texts. You know, one cannot even completely trust primary sources. Hence, translated texts are even less reliable! If I can just believe everything I read, then there is no need to generate any types of discussions regarding anything! I come to CHF because I hope to gain an abundant amount of knowledge! Sometime I will ask questions because I really have no clue what you guys are talking about. Other times I will ask questions regarding the validity of some historical sources since history is a very delicate subject as books were usually written by victors and records could be easily altered. Besides, it is always good to have discussions. That way, one can be aware of the different viewpoints and circumstances.

Since I am illiterate in Chinese, I really have no right to deem any sources as reliable or vice versa. Hence, I really have to depend on others. That is why asking questions is vital for me!

Anyway, I apologize profusely if I may have aggravated you in any way since that definitely was not my intention at all! I know sometimes it may seem that I am being too meticulous and asking small detailed questions; however, this is only because I want to know all the possible information before arriving at a conclusion. If this had, has, or will have annoyed other members, I am really sorry, but this curiosity is ultimately coming from my passion for Chinese History. I am not saying that others don’t have the same kind of passion; however, this is how I will show my eagerness to learn.

Sorry again,
Minh Giao

Zunjing de Ashura My Liege,

Yeah, Li Shimin insisted on replacing Li Zhi with Li Ke because he felt that his third son would make a much more determined Emperor. However, this consideration was strongly opposed by the influential prime minister Zhangsun Wuji, who was the uncle of Li Zhi. Despite minor opposition(s), Li Zhi eventually succeeded Li Shimin as the third Tang Emperor. However, Zhangsun Wuji bore a deep grudge toward Li Ke, and had him unjustly executed for treason just four years after Tang Taizong passed away. By the way, do you think Li Ke would have done a good job at governing the country and continued the prosperity of Zhen Guan?

Yeah, I surmise it would really make sense for an Emperor to not leak out the news to anyone if he decided to go against social conventions in naming the second son the Crown Prince. That is why I really doubt if Li Yuan was actually a competent Emperor in control of the situation(s). The indecisiveness of many Emperors would be the main reason for rebellions and unnecessary feuds.

Xie Xie,

Actually, the official record is that Li Shimin wanted Li Ke to be the next emperor because Li Ke's mother was a daughter of Sui Yangdi and therefore enjoyed greater prestige than Empress Zhangsun.

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Are you serious regarding the above statement being an official record? I knew Li Ke was a maternal grandson of Sui Yangdi, but I had no idea that Li Ke’s mother enjoyed greater prestige than Empress Zhangsun as she was just a major concubine. Is this the real reason why Tang Taizong was considering replacing Li Zhi with Li Ke? Can you further elaborate on this?

By the way, I have seen some TV Series regarding Tang Taizong and the Sui Princess having a love affair and the Sui Princess was the woman Tang Taizong loved the most. I know that such an affair would be fictional; however, I am just wondering if it was based on some historical truths?

Xie Xie,

Hi,



Be careful what you wish for, they say.

I can't read Chinese other than a few odd characters either. Your English is better than mine, I reckon (your verbosity is second to none in this forum, based on average words per post )

There are quite a few good sources of Chinese history in Vietnamese, if one can wade through the the sea of sensationalism, cliches, and some of the most horrible translations (Check out Đường Sử Diễn Nghĩa, fantastically rich in facts, but stay away from rags like Đường Cung ## Hoàng triều). There are some great scholarly works in English, some of them are even available freely on the web, including wikipedia, which can be surprisingly terrific (check out its articles on Northern Qi's rulers). Depends on your particular interest and the level of your interest in said subject, we can help pointing you to relevant sources.

I don't know if somehow my sarcastic intend went missing in the scolding tone , I never advocate anyone to believe whatever that person read. Rather, make your own intepretation based on the bias-removed facts.



Then ask, to the point, not beating around the bushes. I understand your pain having to construct an argument in way that intellectually doesn't make yourself appear a complete clueless idiot. Repeating cliches though (romanticized notions most oftenly are) that were being refuted usually only had the reversed effect (because it'd appear you challenged them with what they've already refuted, withthe implication that you didn't bother to read their argument fully in the first place).



Actually it's me who should be apologizing for over-reacting. I misinterpreted your intend (of which it must be said Yun judged correctly).

(Now, where's my soapbox gone?)

By that he meant the Yangs was more prestigious than the Zhangsuns, which was a fact. Such "coup" though would be extremely unlikely because the Zhangsuns accumulated quite a bit political capital owed by Li Shimin. Though they later made the mistake of spending said capital on the Wu Zhao issue.

Li Shimin only even considerred that because he did not considered Li Zhi would be effectual as a ruler, and that would also resolve the friction between Li Zhi and his same-mother older brother Li Tai, who was demoted from consideration (for the throne) because Shimin assumed Tai would kill Zhi (again, due to sibling rivalry).

Rong Qin Wang,

Let me recommend you this thread I once made on two interesting concubines in Li Shimin's harem: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=4614

(namely, Sui Yangdi's daughter and Li Yuanji's widow)

According to the Jiu Tangshu, Li Shimin felt that among his sons, Li Ke was most similar to himself in literary and martial talent. This statement does not appear in the Xin Tangshu biography of Li Ke. However, both Jiu Tangshu and Xin Tangshu also imply that besides Li Ke's talents, he enjoyed special prestige in the imperial court because of his mother. Now, if Sui Yangdi was really the tyrant and monster that he is now stereotyped as, then why would his daughter be so respected "both within and outside the country", as Xin Tangshu says? I would suggest that Sui Yangdi was still greatly respected for his achievements during Li Shimin's time, but was then the target of a deliberate smear campaign through the writing of the Sui Shu, so as to legitimize Li Yuan's rebellion against Sui Yangdi.



There is no historical basis to this, although I have indeed seen one novel with such a storyline. The truth (according to Xin Tangshu) is that the woman Li Shimin loved the most was Li Yuanji's widow! After Empress Zhangsun's death, he even wanted to make her the new empress, but was dissuaded by Wei Zheng. If this other Concubine Yang had become empress, then the son she bore to Li Shimin, Li Ming, would have become Crown Prince.

Zunjing de Metronomad,

Hehehe, I have a desire to know everything; hence, I really don’t mind if my wish comes true.

You know, I am just curious as to are you Vietnamese yourself? Well, I have learned that translating is a very hard thing to do as it can get so complicated! Therefore, I know that some of the Vietnamese-translated texts were horrible, but then again, people would probably just read them to learn more regarding Chinese History rather than using them as a good tool to learn how to write in Vietnamese fluently or even properly. I have always felt that Vietnamese translated texts are more accurate that the English translated ones since Vietnamese and Chinese share more of the common characteristics. In fact, before the French occupation, Vietnamese had the Chinese standard of writing. I have always used Wikipedia as one of the quickest sources of Chinese History available in English; however, it is certainly not too reliable!

I think everyone will just automatically form his/her own interpretations whether or not he/she may have realized it or not. After all, this is only human nature.

Hmm, I don’t mean to beat around the bushes; however, as you have noticed, I can be extremely wordy sometimes. I just cannot help it! I am just too meticulous at times. I want to know all the details. I don’t have any intentions of wanting to appear intelligently! The very first day, I have decided to post questions and comments in here, I was already well-prepared to been viewed as a clueless idiot since almost all the members in here are more knowledgeable than myself. The very first step I took when joining this forum was admitting that I am an absolute m****! Therefore, my verbosity is solely based on my personality rather than trying to make myself look good.

I sincerely hope you would not be unhappy regarding Brother Yun’s remark. We should all get along in here and learn/discuss Chinese History happily together.

Look, I will always continue to ask inane questions and make some redundant comments. You are always more than welcomed to scold at me anytime you think I am being overboard. I would then apologize for my stupid questions, and then we would start all over again. This may be a cycle just like the animal wheel. Hehehe!

Xie Xie,