In the Osprey books "medieval chinese armies 1260-1520" there is a drawing of a Red Turban rebel attacking a mongol rider on a horse. The text says "some authorities believe that the high kicks for which the Norhthern Chinese unarmoured combat styles are famous were originally developed as a counter Mongol cavalry, who rode with very short stirrups and were so very easily unseated by a hard blow".

Does anybody know of historical sources that confirm the use of such techniques against riders? An if so, was the flying kick using a staff also a technique used for this? Sounds like an easier way of getting to that height.

While these kinds of martial arts would probably not be used in an army-army encounter I can imagine their use in ambushes and guerilla warfare.

It seems a little impractical, but...awaiting someone with real knowledge.

Nowhere near as bad though, as this guy Langtaoyin told me about who said "Chinese Martial Arts were full of acrobatics so they could knock horsemen from their horses".

Because, that belief, of many CMA having many jumps, flips, stunts, blah blah blah is simply based in Modern Wushu. This is both a fallacy in itself, and the fact that you need to be on the ground to have good power. "All strength comes from the ground."

I've actually seen this picture. It looks more like the Red Turban is slipping in the mud.

My thoughts exactly.

In ancient China, this so called martial arts is more like a sort of art form performed by actors on stage. It may looks tough; but the fact is that it has absolutely no practical use in a real fight. Martial arts only became popluar in China (especially Taiwan and Hongkong) after the raise of Wu Xia style novel in recent years. In reality, most martial arts fans today live outside of China.
And trust me, there isn't too many Chinese (well, at least mainland Chinese) who believe in martial arts.

LOL! So ancient Chinese armies had been training in "a sort of art form performed by actors on stage"

Well, I don't really consider archery, swordsmanship as martial arts.

Why is their extreme sceptism about martial arts used in battle, samuria used it ninjas used it,then Why can t chinese use it?

Since when do you see a group of ninjas fight in battles , isn't ninjitsu always about hide and assasination.

A Martial Art is a fighting art.

It's important to differentiate between Performance Wushu (which literally means 'Martial Art', though it's really a performance art) and real MA.

Swordsmanship, Archery, hell, even gunnery all count as martial arts. Not all Chinese Barehanded techniques are opera techniques, you know.

If you define martial arts that way, fine.

Chinese martial arts predate opera. Chinese martial arts were practiced separately from opera. What you talking about is a gross generalization and untrue. Please do more research before you post that.

Martial arts were popular as long as people want to learn how to fight. Chinese MA is also part of heritage, thats why another name for it was Kuoshu(national art).


Well many CMA styles teach weapons as part of the curriculum, swordsmanship included. Archery is rare. BUt I don't know how you can separate swordsmanship from martial arts. Unless you expect all martial arts to be barehanded, which is certainly not the case esp. before the widespread arrival of firearms.



Well I guess I should trust you since you said so.

Well that sucks, we should all just learn Karate, Muay Thai, and Brazilian Jujitsu then coz Chinese MA is useless and you said so.


And a question do you practice any Chinese MA? And I meant the real ones.

I thought we already had this discussion in what martial arts is the best ?
Ninjas swordstyle was developed to counter the samurai sword techniques and were most feared by samurai,there not just sneaky they can kill to.

wow, how did a genuine historical question turn into a CMA bashing/defending thread so quickly ?

Anyway, regarding the original question. While the concept of kicking people off horses makes sense, I am somewhat undecided on the matter. I have heard the same argument to have been used for TKD and the systems it evolved from.

(1) I have yet to see one reliable source that it actually was used as a standard tactic.
(2) Contrary to popular belief, the flying sidekick which you see among the karate and TKD people are extremely rare in Chinese systems. And the systems that has them did not evolve from these rebels. If you are going to kick someone off a horse, that kind of kick generates the most power and most likely to have been the one employed. If the principles behind the technique holds true, one would imagine that such techniques would have been practiced by the Ming and Qing civilians as well. The fact that it no longer exists may might say something.
(3) If you can jump that high, a common rugby tackle could probably do a better job. You have a larger attack surface and less likely to miss.

But on the other hand....
(1) Although no reliable sources exist, things like ancient novels, folklores and rumours does indicate it might have happened. But since these by nature things that are passed on by word of mouth, it is just probably one person's words getting repeated over several centuries. Yet I am not all too willing to dismiss them entirely. Unlike the Southern Shaolin legend where evidence show quite convincingly that it is a nothing more than propaganda, there really isn't enough to prove or disprove these particular ones
(2) The design of the staddle and stirrup makes this technique possible and a kick does has much more shock value than a rugby tackle
(3) you actaully don't need the flying sidekick to generate enough force to get the job done. Unless the rider is in a forward leaning position (like those used for a charge), a common spin kick can get the job done too. And these continue to exist today.

What tackle a horse lol,there is no way a man can tackle a horse .
A fly kik at the rider might happen tho.

So, do you think that all Chinese practice martial arts? I don't know about you, but I was born and raised in China so I know this country pretty well. From what I observed, Chinese kids (in general) today could not care less about stuff like martial arts. You can go to any school in China and ask some random kids what sort of sports they like the most. The anwser would most likely be basketball or soccor. Martial arts is just something that is so far away from these people. But of course, I am not saying this is good; I too think that the younger generations should remember their heritage. What I did is simply state a fact.

I admit that my knowledge on martial arts is limited. But my attitude toward martial arts does represents the mindset of an average Chinese. So, no matter whether it is right or wrong, it does count.

Well, you do live in CHina, so you do know the people but just beceuse you are Chinese, doesn't make you a martial arts expert. Therefore what you said before about CMA obviously made no sense. It's just best if you didn't generalize how martial arts came from opera, its useless, etc. Because that will obviously piss people like me off

I still can't see how a man can accurately land a kick on the rider sitting on top of a horse, much less a galloping rider. Gaining that kind of height plus momentum. It seems unlikely.

Tackling the rider !!


Agreed. Most likely the kick would be delievered when the horse is relatively stationary. Such as being surrounded by infantry or just during a turn. But even so, considering the speed of a mongolian pony and its height, even a kick delievered to a galloping rider is possible.


Unlikely, but possible. Even modern day martial artists are capable of such feat. Remember, if it is the mongolian ponies we are talking about (and some of the mongol cavlary still used them) then it really isn't hard to reach that height. I would guess that the tactic would be common swordfodders surrounding and occupying the horseman while the 'talented guy' comes in with a kick if the swordfodders havn't brought him down already.

Well, if you have swords in the first place or any kind of weapons(even a branch), wouldn't it be a whole lot easier, safer, and more effective if you just jump up and swing your weapon at him. Rather then jump up and kick him and miss or worse lose a limb or get crushed.

Just seems like a very bad theory.

True, but this is the red turban rebellion we are talking about. Peasent armies are generally not very well armed. Branches and pitchforks were porbably what they had. And those tactic you said also makes sense. But the fact is, just because one set of tactics is plausible and more likely does not neglect the possibility of another's existance

I agree that the whole idea of high kicks developed to take down horsemen is unlikely at best. Remember if we factor in the level of training required to achieve a high kick, for a peasent army no less, and whole idea just misses impossibility. I am just stating that it is physically possible and tactically sound. Not that it was the key for the rebellion or something

Thanks for trying to reply to the question. To me it sounds a bit farfetched as well but I will not dimiss it either as a possibility. As you mentioned the rebels were not regular army and did not have all the weapons that would otherwise have been helpfull to take down a rider. So they may have been forced to think out another method. The most likely scenario to me would be in an ambush where the rider has first been distracted by others. Shame info is scarce. It would be interested to learn more about that.

Are Mongolain ponies similar (or the same) as Przewalski's wild horses? Nowadays they are about 1.20m shoulderheight, so if the horses were about the same size the kick would have to be at 1.60m? That would require a jump (unless you're tall ).

Bravo for the analysis, Wujiang.

"the talented guy" makes me laugh for some reason XD

lol yeah, this wushu guy on kung fu magazine forums said that.

what people don't realize is that ancient/medieval Chinese military culture/skills has little to do with the boxing styles that small sectarian groups developed though they did occasionally overlap. C. J Peers mentioned that Song dynasty imperial guard developed boxing skills and held tournaments. Both represent elements of China's martial history but different sectors (military vs civilian)

the confusion is further compounded by

1. WuXia and cantonese kung fu films which usually depict a kung fu master using his "skills" against an evil Manchu on a horse armed with a bow (which leads to the nonsensical erroneous assumption that archery skills were of the "barbarian" and Un Chinese despite the fact that archery has been one of the most ancient and longest lasting Chinese military/cultural elements leading all the way into the late 19th century)

2. the fact that Japanese martial arts practiced today are both descended from military as well as civilian sectors leading many to assume that Chinese martial arts practiced today are no different

(it is important to note however some weapon forms in boxing styles are military-esque in nature such as the Xing Yi boxing system's one and a half hand sword form )

LOL--why not?





It's not even a debateable subject.

The first time we know of the term "martial art" actually being used comes from a 17th century English treatise, and it refers specifically to fencing.

As for the flying kick to dismount evil Mongol horsemen, that's clearly a modern martial arts urban myth. There are so many better ways of dismounting and defeating cavalrymen.

All debates about the use of English is moved here

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=9460

"What tackle a horse lol,there is no way a man can tackle a horse .
A fly kik at the rider might happen tho.

Tackling the rider !! "

howabout kicking the horse?

浪淘音
.... ah dangit, I'm illiterate so I don't know your name.
But you seem to know something about the... I'll call them 'military style' of China. That's really what I want to find out about. I had another thread about it.

Believe a person firing a crossbolt or arrow onto the target is easier than a flying kick.

The pragmatic thinker should mind the KISS principle [ Keep It Sweet and Simple (KISS)] before deploying an actual move.

Don't even try it. What if you miss and get trampled by a horse.