Another probable Ming era "changdao" used by General Qi Jiguang's troops or late Ming soldiers...
But I have my reservations as the blade is in surprisingly good condition...
This pic is posted at http://hfsword.com/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=...ghlight=&page=1



Changdao and its associated force structure during General Qi's time:
When General Qi was posted to the northern frontier to train the troops there to deal with the Mongols, he went on to establish small combined arms units (based on his experience in the south), adapted to localized conditions, besides repairing and enhancing the Great Wall.

General Qi had adapted an innovation from another General, Yu Dayou, who had used wagons as mobile fortification / defensive works as well as a means to mount cannons and transport them efficiently along the cavalry terrain of the northern plains.

This 100,000 strong army of General Qi was equipped with steel armour suits and helmets as standard and were divided into 4 components:

1) Combat Wagon Force (50% changdaos)
2) Baggage Supply Wagon Force (logistical support role) (50% changdaos)
3) Infantry Force (50% changdaos)
4) Cavalry Force (20% changdaos for Left and Right components, 27% for the Central component)

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The Combat Wagon Force and Baggage Supply Wagon Force were equipped with medium caliber (Chinese copies and modifications of portuguese breech-loaders) and smaller caliber cannons.

The "Commando Team" is the non-artillery combat component of the Combat Wagon Force and Bagguage Supply Wagon Force and uses the wagon as a large mobile armoured platform. It consists of 8 men:

1) 4 men with changdaos (an design idea inspired/copied from the 1.95 meter long nodachi of the Japanese pirates) and muskets (Chinese-made Portuguese-style matchlocks)

2) 2 men with shields and sabers plus muskets

3) 2 men with tridents and "fire-arrows" (arrows with rocket propulsion).

Upon contacting the enemy, the wagons are to be setup in a rectangular formation and all personnel are to withdraw within this defensive perimeter. After the cannons, muskets and fire-arrows are fired first at long range against the Mongols, the Commando Team would park their long range weapons inside, move out of the defensive perimeter and deploy in formation, using their changdaos, sabers and shields, plus tridents for close-quarters combat.

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As for the Infantry Force, it had divided into 2 equal and separate groups of musketeers and "close-quarters fighters" (General Qi calls them "killers" or "shashou"). The basic unit for both groups was 10 soldiers. The musketeers were all armed with changdaos; whereas the "killers" were armed with:

1) sabers and shields
2) multiple tip bamboo spears
3) tridents (also equipped with "fire-arrows")
4) long spears (also equipped with composite bows/arrows)
5) poles -- long heavy sticks tipped with a small double-edged steel blade (also equipped with composite bows/arrows)

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The Cavalry Force was divided into 3 components: Left, Right and Centre. As for the Left and Right Components, it was to consist of basic units of 10 men equipped with:

1) changdaos (also equipped with muskets)
2) poles with gun barrels-mounted at the tip *
3) tridents (also equipped with "fire-arrows")
4) another type of pole, this time with a slighter longer and single-edged steel blade (also equipped with composite bows/arrows)
5) poles (also equipped with composite bows/arrows)


* Known as "kuai-qiang", a short but wide-diameter gun barrel mounted on a shaft --- a design originating from the Yuan and early Ming Dynasties, where the soldier can use the weapon as a pole for close-quarters fighting after firing off a shot.

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The Central Component of the Cavalry Force is uniquely equipped as it composes entirely of light cavalry.

In the Central Component, at the battalion level of 3 companies, there will be one company (which will also consist of basic units of 10 men each) where the weapon allocation is:

1) 8 men with changdaos (also equipped with muskets)
2) 2 men with tridents (also equipped with fire-arrows)

The other 2 companies will also consist of multiple units of 10 each.

And each 10 men unit will consist of:
1) 4 men with single-handed sabers (also equipped with composite bows and arrows)
2) 4 men equipped with spears, specially designed with downward curving hooking blades on both sides of the spearhead -- to unseat enemy horsemen (plus composite bows and arrows)
3) 2 men with tridents (also equipped with fire-arrows)

A very long sword..Do have some part look similar to a samarui sword

That's a very long sword!! Would it break easily?

Good god!
I didn't know they were that long!

"A very long sword..Do have some part look similar to a samarui sword"
I've heard the design was adopted from wokuo/'Japanese' (also included many Chinese & Koreans) pirates

Now Final Fantasy is a bit more realistic

http://linkhiei.tripod.com/sitebuildercont...hbig20sword.jpg

*interestingly the main character of that game uses a sword shaped just like a Song zhanmadao

image hosted by tripod.

But now I see the site name...

Yeah. But he holds it one handed in that picture, if it's the one I think you're showing us.

I guess Buster sword looks a bit like a Zhan Ma Dao. A lot bigger, (DUH)

It has a back thickness of 1.1 centimeter, so it won't break easily...

Thomas, excellent. What is the source of your article?


Can you direct me to pictorial references for the above weapons?

Urofpersia

The source is General Qi's manual, Lian Bing Shi Ji.... I will show the pictorial references to you the next time we meet...

As for the changdao, General Qi's inspiration was the long sword (known as nodachi) used by the Japanese as shown in this woodblock print:

Nice blade in that top pic.

Is there additional information about the woodblock print? The soldier looks small; is that Chinese bias or reality?

By the way, TMP, the Shinra Corporation in FF7 is actually a Japanese translation of Silla, according to Wikipedia.

I would say reality. Japanese people were historically known to be short. I heard a derogatory term for them is something like calling them 'dwarves'

So in the sence that Germans are known to be tall, Japanese were known to be short.


Silla corporation... interesting, never heard of that idea before. Then again Wikipedia can be changed by anyone.

The Japanese woodblock print is accurate relative to scale..... General Qi describes the changdao as 5 Chinese feet for the blade and 1.5 feet for the handle, overall 6.5 feet.... where 1 Chinese foot equals around 31 centimeters...... So the blade is overall 1.95 meters long...

To say something racist... so that's why you see all these animu characters carrying huge swords... it's not that the sword is huge, but rather the person is small...

ex, cloud is supposed to be 5'9, whereas I'm 5'11/5'10 or 180 cm.

/runs away from mods

How heavy is the standard no-datchi/changdao?

It can't be that terribly effective if you can only swing it once every few seconds. More than enough time for a spear or sword to go in for the kill.

So by the time of the Ming dynasty, the chinese 'Foot' 尺 is now ~31 cm? This is very close to the Imperial Foot of ~30.5cm. Do you have more information on scale ofmeasurements?

Moping,

Two-handed swords like the Japanese no-dachi and the Chinese changdao are not "heavy"--if they were, they would not have been used in combat.

I admittedly don't have figures for these Asian two-handers, but European two-handers like the German zweihander and the Scottish claidheamh da laimh (sometimes called a "claymore") typically weighed in the 4-7lb range. These long swords have an advantage in reach and power against smaller, single-handed swords.

There were even larger two-handers called "bearing swords", and these could weigh up to 15 pounds, but they were not meant for actual combat. "Bearing swords" were simply ceremonial tools, carried by guards during parades and such.

Hope this helps.

T-tC

From http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/swords/nodachi.html

To my understanding, both of these superheavy swords were the medieval equivalent of an anti-tank guided missile. They're not meant to kill infantry or archers, but are specifically designed as an anti cavalry weapon. Chop Chop.

sounds like a Zhanmadao.

The standard chi of the Ming dynasty was 31.1cm.

According to General Qi, it weighs 2 jin 8 liang... Can someone convert that to modern scale in kilograms...??

From my webpage...

One simple and specific training technique for General Qi's soldiers wielding the changdao is to setup two thick wooden poles, one short and one long, spaced 2 feet apart.

The soldier will then use the changdao like a zhanmadao, bending low while advancing and striking first at the bottom part of the shorter pole to simulate cutting through the horse's legs, afterwhich he will raise and turn slightly to strike the upper part of the longer pole, simulating the strike on the horse's head -- A practical scenario for when the horse dies, the enemy soldier/rider loses his mobility and becomes meat on the platter for the Chinese soldiers.

General Qi had also stipulated compulsory 2-person combat drills using wooden sticks for mock practice, for use in his army.

I went to this site:

http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Metric/number-weight.html

According to the conversion, 2 jin 8 liang = 3.08lbs, or 1.4 kilos.

That sounds a little light to me, but I'm not gonna argue with The General. Heck, if anything, it makes for a faster (and thus deadlier) sword.

The site you posted I believe are the modern measurements when they standardise to metric system, I am not so sure they were the same in the Ming dynasty. We need conversions from the standard during the Ming dynasty in order for it to be accurate.

Well, I guess that would explain why the figure I came up with sounded too light...