Source : http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%92%99%E5%8F%A4%E6%97%8F

From the Shang Dynasty (商代) to Western Han (西汉), there was a nomadic group of people known as DongHu (东胡, ) who lived north of the present Hebei Province of PRC.

Circa 206BC, they were defeated by the XiongNu (匈奴) and the remnants were split into the ancestors of the WuHuan (乌桓) and XianBei (鲜卑).

During the Age of Fragmentation from the Jin Dynasty to the North-South Dynasties, the XianBei people further divided into groups known as MuRong (慕容部), TuoBa (拓拔部) and RouRan (柔然部) etc.

The RouRans waged wars against the TuoBas of Northern Wèi (北魏). Later, they were defeated by the Tujue (突厥) and split into northern and southern groups.

The southern group went to the upper reaches of the Liao River (辽河) and became known as the Khitans (契丹).

The northern group went to an area which was east of Yablonovy mountain ranges (雅布洛诺夫山脉) and south of the Stanovoi Range (外兴安岭). These became the ancestors of the ShiWei (室韦/失韦) people which was recorded to have relationship with the Tang Dynasty (唐朝).

The Mongols descended from a branch of the ShiWei.

Well I'm more than a bit dubious about the Rouran section..

The Shiwei tribes (over twenty mentioned in the histories) were closely related to the Khitan's and the Mongols almost certainly descended from them. More than this is 'educated guesswork' and discussion can rapidly degenerate to 'number of angels dancing on a pin' levels..

Ah Xiang has a reasonable summary of the available information on uglychinese
http://www.uglychinese.org/mongolian.htm

There were also Tatars and Tatabys.

The Khitan existed as a distinct group from the beginning of the Age of Fragmentation, long before the destruction of the Rouran confederation by the Turkut/Tujue. The Shiwei made their first embassy to the Northern Wei in 544 - also 8 years before the Rouran were destroyed. The Sui Shu says that the Shiwei were a branch of the Khitan.

So this theory about the Shiwei being descended from the Rouran is not convincing. Furthermore, there is also an old theory that the Rouran went west and became the Avars. This needs to be disproven before it can be accepted that the Rouran fled eastwards instead.

The older Mongol origin theory favoured by the Mongols is that they were descended from the Xiongnu. It seems that the Rouran theory is a newer one - it was recently expressed here by Chono. The PRC academics mostly hold the view that the Mongols are descended from the Mengwu, a branch of the Shiwei (this is also mentionedi in the Wiki article), but they do not see a Rouran origin for the Shiwei.



I don't think the Tatars existed during the Age of Fragmentation. As for the Tatabi, their Chinese name was Kumoxi or Xi for short. They are said in Chinese sources to be related to the Yuwen Xianbei (whose leaders were originally Xiongnu), and they were around from the early Age of Fragmentation onwards - after the Yuwen were defeated and conquered by the Murong Xianbei, they were the Yuwen remnants who remained outside Murong rule.

Hi!

According to chinese sources Ruan Ruan are mixed descendants of northern Xiongnu and northern Xianbei.

The Shibei branch Mengwu cannot possibly be labeled as ancestral to all mongols. It could at best supply an explanation to the ethnonym mongol. But all in all we are an extremely diverse people, united by language and tradition.

They are proposed as the ancestors of Temuljin's Mongols.
The culture of steppe peoples forces diversity on them (eg by taking a spouse from another tribe whenever possible).

George Lane "Genghis Khan and Mongols Rule" -- Greenwood Guides to Historic Events of the Mediecval World, Jane Chance, Series Edotor, Greenwood Press, Westport, Connecticut, London, 2004

p.1
Although the major tribal confederations at this time are often divided into Mongols, Tatars, Naimans, Merkits, and Keraits, with numerous subdivisions, these groups were in no way distinct either linguistically or ethnologically. "Mongols" could be found in "Naiman" tribes for example, and Turkish would be used as a first language in any number of these groupings...

a question here, how many distinguishable Xianbei groups were there in Chinese history.. besides the more familiar Murongs and Tobas, perhaps Yun or someone can clarify?

Hi Alski,

10 out of 10 finding a quote that appears to support your "they all spoke Turkish and were all Turks" argument..

I suspect that it may be slightly out of context, having listened to George lecturing on words that transferred from Mongol into Persian and Quangli Turkish during the late 13th C.
:-)

Well the language group is called Turko-Mongol of the Altaic family I think. Didn't the Turks originate from the Altai mountains in Mongolia?

I find this thread confusing: Mongols would speak the Mongol language and have Mongols customs. If they speak the Turkic language and have Turkic customs, they would be Turks.

Presently there are tribes/people who look Mongoloid, but they are still classified as Turks because they speak a Turkic language and (sometimes) have Turkic customs.

Excellent research!

I have been reading "Mongol history and chronology from Ancient times" by Per Inge Oestmoen.

It seems that Mongol civilization was indigenous of the lands around Lake Baykal (or the Baykal sea). What is now Outer Mongolia was occupied by Turkic tribes. Then the Mongol expanded somewhat, and became two different groups:

1. The Northern peoples of the forest, who inhabited the Taiga region, down to and including the area around Lake Baykal, and

2. The pastoral nomads of the Steppe/grassland, south of Lake Baykal.

The Turkic tribes were still in the Steppe/grassland: so there were both Turkic and Mongol tribes in the Steppe south of Lake Baykal (up to Genghus Khan's time).

Read a little more ... seems that present day Mongolia had seen countless migrations of people in and out.

What about the legend of the blue wolf? Anyone heard of it?

I have been reading "Early Man 200,000 to 35,001 BC". I quote a few lines from that artilce:

200,000 BC

1. Other evidence suggests modern man evolved independently at several sites much earlier (than 100,000 BC) including Africa, China and Indonesia.

2. An Archaic Jinniushan skull in Liaoning province of China suggests these Homo Sapiens coexisted with Homo Erectus in this region.

100,000 BC

Homo Sapiens is living at Hsuchiayao, Datong, province of Shanxi, not far from Peking (Beijing). These and other findings suggest the evolution of Homo Sapiens from Homo Erectus is not confined to Africa.

70,000 BC

The Mousterin tool people are in Mongolia. (The Mousterian tools were used by Neanderthals - so the Neanderthals were living in Mongolia?)

60,000 BC

There is evidence of an eastern migration into southern Mongolia of the Levallois-Mousterian tool tradition.

I think that Homo Sapiens/Mongoloids evolved independently in China/East Asia (no Lucy from Africa) perhaps 100,000 years ago or earlier. Then some Mongoloid people emigrated to South East Asia where they mixed with some other people (mainly a Southern, darker skinned race). Subsequently, there were some moving back and forth.

There is archaeologic evidence that Neanderthals lived in Mongolia. The ancient "blond haired" remains of ancient humans are probably the remains of Neanderthals.

All such politically-motivated claims are rejected by modern science. Humans are too genetically homogenous. Besides, Neaderthals had different number of chromosomes than modern humans. It means that hybrids were either impossible at all or infertile.

The Xianbei was not an ethnic group. The Xianbei was a federation which contained different ethnic groups, including the Mongols. Mongol did not "descend" from Xianbei.

The Xiongnu was also a federation/confederation. Xiongnu almost certainly also contained Mongol people within that federation/confederation.

This is not a science forum.

1. Presently, there is a debate on whether Neanderthal man coud/did interbreed with Homo Sapiens. There are scientists on both sides of this debate. The only conclusion at present is that the evidence is not conclusive.

2. What does politics got to do with it?