I find this whole did China first discover the Americas subject more interesting for its psychological aspect. Doesnt it tell volumes about how some Chinese just now begin to realize how much of a chance their country lost back then? Really, this whole map business is actually abou coming to grips with a huge missed chance. Ultimnately, the actual topic at hand is not about some lines on a rotten piece of linen, but an age old reflex of the Zhongguo mentality.

I doubt that China as much as "missed" the chance as that it had no chance. Intense Chinese(or Japanese) piracy(whose power can encompass a fleet instead of one single ship) problems really took away the incentive for overseas trade.

Warhead... love those Jesuits, right

To all... I think we are onto something... but let me post my graphics first... this is my fourth attempt.

This first graphic is by Michael Xu, with contributions by Yuzhou Fan and Zhenzhong Wang, Texas Christian University, found in Ancient American Magazine, April 2003, pg 20, reprinted from Journal of Washington Academy of Sciences, March of 2002.
Acknowledgements and Bibliography are also informative...
"Scholars consulted in China include, Qiu Xi-Qui (Beijing University), Li Xue-Qin, Zhang Yong shan, Wang Ya-xin, Wang Zhen-Zhong (Social Science Academy); Liu Xiang (Shen-Chen University); Ya Wei-Chao, Shi Shu-Qin, Song Zhao-Lin (National Museum of Chinese History); Ma Chen-Yuan (Shanghai University); Li lin-Pu (East China Normal University); Zhang Zhen-Lin (Ji Nan University); Wang En-Tian (Shandong Museum); and Lin Xiao-An (beijing Institute of Archaeology)....."
4-6 more graphics to follow... in next attempts. Is all this "FACT"? No. Theories, beautiful theories of other persons, of what I believe will prove to be true one day.
[img=http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/9015/mxucompare3sp.th.gif]

marked ryukyu on taiwan etc.

图中红圈标注“琉球”于台湾岛，而琉球(今日本冲绳)
是明朝的藩属国，地理位置非常明确，不可能混淆。

Even if the Chinese fleets kept mostly to themselves and exposed only small groups of native americans to eurasian viral strains there would still be massive extinctions of local populations where the infections occurred easily dateable as being prior to Columbus' arrival.

so, if the Ryukyu Kingdom started to send tributes to the ming since 1350, how could the ming got confused about them with taiwan?
of course, it's possible that they did, but i'm not convinced.

明朝初年，由于册封今日琉球为藩属，特称之为大琉球，故另称台湾为小琉球。从明朝起，台湾不再被称作琉球，除称作小琉球外，又有东番之名，而东番一名见之最多。

至迟从明朝洪武初年开始，明太祖朱元璋就派遣册封使赴琉球王国，往返都经过钓鱼岛。从那时起，钓鱼岛就载入中国史册，到明嘉靖十三年（１５３４），琉球国王接受明王朝册封已有１１次。是年琉球国王尚清再度接受明皇封号为“中山王”。所以，琉球王国又称“中山国”，出现在中国历史文献和舆图中。

One can argue though that this didnt happen in case of the Vikings who demonstrably settled in North America (albeit only in small numbers and perhaps only at Newfoundland), interacting with the local population (albeit propably only on a small scale). Still, I dont know of any traces they and their "viral strains" left in the local populace.

Map of the Ming and its neighbours in 1443, from the authoritative Historical Atlas of China edited by Tan Qixiang's team:
http://www.sinomaps.com/non-cgi/usr/39/39_121.jpg

It seems that 小琉球 was the standard name for Taiwan in the early Ming. See also http://www.chinataiwan.org/web/webportal/W...n/A4578888.html

http://www.sjhistory.org/site/newxh/yjzt2-...00504073048.htm
So: yes, you are right that the Ryukyu Kingdoms (there were actually three at the time) were known collectively as Greater Ryukyu 大琉球 or Ryukyu 琉球 to the Ming court from the Hongwu reign onwards. I was mistaken in saying that the Ryukyu Kingdom was only known as such to the Ming after the mid-15th century. Thanks for pointing that out.

However, Taiwan was still known as Little Ryukyu. A map labelling Taiwan as 'Ryukyu' would thus not be completely wrong, contrary to what Hou Yangfang claims.

BTW, there is a funny story about Taiwan in the Ming Shi that I just read. It says that when Zheng He was sailing his fleet around the region, every country rushed to pay tribute except the natives of Taiwan. This was because the Taiwan tribes feared the sea, did not like sailing (quite a far cry from their Austronesian ancestors), and avoided contact with all surrounding countries. Zheng He was angry with them for this, and gave the head of each household a bronze bell to wear around his neck, symbolizing that this was a country of dogs. A few generations later, however these bells became a prized heirloom among the Taiwanese aborigines.

WELLINGTON, March 25 (Xinhua) -- A New Zealand university's research has suggested a 243-year-old map indicating a famous Chinese explorer discovered New Zealand, Australia and America before Europeans is probably not a fake.

Waikato Times reported Saturday that Waikato University carbon-dating shows that "there might be something in a theory that the Chinese discovered New Zealand before Europeans."

Before Christmas, the university's carbon-dating unit was asked to analyze a Chinese map allegedly dating back to 1763 and stating that it was a copy of a 1418 map.

If authentic, the 1418 map by Chinese explorer Zheng He, which includes portrayals of America and Australia, was drawn 70 years before Christopher Columbus became the first European to land in America.

In the early days of the Ming Dynasty, that is, early in the 15th century, Zheng He was ordered by the then emperor to lead a vast fleet to sail for a distant voyage, aimed to establish relations with foreign countries and expand trade contacts.

Between 1405 and 1433, Zheng acted as an envoy to countries lying to the west of China for seven times. But where actually had he been has been debated for years, especially recently by some historians.

Western histories record that Columbus found the New World in 1492, Portugal's Bartholomeu Diaz discovered the Cape of Good Hopein 1488, and Portuguese navigator Ferdinand Magellan set off to circumnavigate the world in 1519.

While some people said Zheng He seemed to have discovered America 70 years before Columbus in 1492 if the controversial map drawn in 1763 by a Chinese cartographer is real.

The map could have an important influence on a re-evaluation of Chinese and Western maritime exploration.

The map was originally unveiled in Beijing on Jan. 16, attracting interest from across the globe. The owner, Liu Gang, a Chinese lawyer and map collector, said at the time that it was an authentic 1763 copy of a 1418 Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) original.

The original map has not been found, but if real, the 1763 copy could be proof that it existed. If so, it would give credence to the theory that Chinese sailors traversed the globe long before their European counterparts.

Deputy Director Fiona Petchey of Waikato University carbon-dating unit, who was entrusted to make tests of the map, said tests showed there was an 80 percent probability that the map's paper dated to either 1640-1690 or 1730-1810.

There was only a 13 percent chance it could date between 1920-1960.

Liu Gang unveiled the results this week at a press conference in Beijing, according to news report.

He held that appearance of the map, the color of its ink, the age of its paper, the way in which it was painted and the style of calligraphy used by the cartographer verify that the year in which the map was created was the year of 1763 as noted by the cartographer on the map.

"The carbon dating result of Waikato University confirms that the map's paper was most probably produced during the period from 1730-1810 or 1640-1690, which is the right range for the year in which the map was created," said Liu. Enditem

Editor: Mu Xuequan

BEIJING, March 24 (Xinhua) -- Experts have said the authenticity of a map that suggests that the Chinese discovered America before Christopher Columbus is in doubt, although the paper has been proved genuine.

Liu Gang, a lawyer, art collector and owner of the map, said at a press conference Thursday that a recent carbon dating test by a lab in the University of Waikato in New Zealand showed the paper of the map was made during the imperial Qing Dynasty (1644-1911).

The map is said to date back to 1763 but is also clearly marked that it is a copy of a map from 1418.

However, experts still doubt its authenticity despite the support of Gavin Menzies, author of best-seller "1421: The Year China Discover The World."

"The test can only prove that the paper is genuine, but it could be possible that someone forged the map with well preserved paper and Chinese ink," said Prof. Hou Yangfang with the Historical Geography Research Center of elite Fudan University in Shanghai.

Counterfeit ancient painting and calligraphy were often made by forgers with paper and ink made at that time, Hou said.

Hou also said some place names on the map contradict each other. Hunan and Hubei, both provinces in central China, did not exist in the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) and were named as Huguang.

Professor Gong Yingyan, a historian at Zhejiang University, believes the map might be a copy of European maps from the 17th century as he founded similarities between the map and some famous atlases.

However, Liu Gang has been firmly supported by Menzies, who says that the map is genuine and was brought to the West by the ancient Chinese seafaring hero Zheng He (1371-1435).

He argues that the Chinese might even have discovered the world as early as 2,000 years ago, according to a round map in the Book of Mountains and Seas, a work of folk geography in ancient China.

Liu Gang bought the map for 4,000 yuan (about 500 U.S. dollars)from a curio stall in Shanghai in 2001. He said he was amazed by "a map originating in the 15th century representing all the continents in the world". It also contains information about Zheng He's voyages.

From 1405 to 1433 of the Ming Dynasty, Zheng He voyaged to more than 30 countries in Asia and Africa, traveling more than 100,000 km. At its peak, his fleet comprised more than 300 ships manned by approximately 27,000 sailors, a number unrivaled in the world at that time.

Some held that Zheng not only sailed to southern Asia and Africa but also sailed to America in 1421, around 87 years earlier than Columbus' discovery of the New Continent.

Menzies, a retired officer from Britain, is a champion of this hypothesis. He said the first batch of European migrants to America found there were already Chinese habitats on the Continent. In his book, Menzies asserted that the first to see the Continent were Chinese, not Europeans.

Furthermore, he asserted that the Chinese circumnavigated the globe, desalinated water and perfected the art of cartography.

Archaeologist Gunnar Thompson of the U.S. University of Hawaii said the Chinese might even have arrived in America during the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368).

Menzies is not a professional researcher and his studies have been labeled as "pseudo-science" {heh, I thought I coined that term} by some Western and Chinese scholars but he has won support from other Chinese scholars for his academic efforts. Enditem
Editor: Lu Hui

ANd of course, the big mistake is that the landmasses were not colonized IMMEDIATELY. We, Latinos, would have been spared the psychopathic Spanish Conquistadores.

From a cartographic point of view, there were three main
preconditions for drawing a map like the "Overall Map of the Geography
of all under Heaven". 1) There must be a belief that the world is a
globe and not a flat plane. 2) In order to represent the globe as a flat
plane world map, there needs to be knowledge of and methods for
projection. 3) There must have been a very clear knowledge of the actual
geographical situations of the various continents of the globe, or else
they could not have been represented so accurately on the "Overall Map
of the Geography of all under Heaven". In the history of Western
cartography, we can find the progress of the development of these three
preconditions. The "Overall Map of the Geography of all under Heaven"
reflects the results of the development of European cartography, and
particularly the major achievements following European overseas
explorations and the development of cartography.

Conversely, in the China of Zheng He's time, these three major
preconditions did not exist. We only need to compare the "Overall Map of
the Geography of all under Heaven" with the "Navigation Maps of Zheng
He" to know this. No only in the time of Zheng he, but actually
throughout China's history (excluding those maps influenced by Ricci and
other Western missionaries), there is no map which portrays the world
as a globe and projects this globe onto a flat plane. The traditional
geographers in China could not produce a map like the "Overall Map of
the Geography of all under Heaven". The map does not belong to an
ancient Chinese cartographic tradition, but rather to a European
cartographic tradition.
......During the Yuan dynasty (1206-1368 CE), Christianity in China was called
the "Ye-li-ke-wen" (Mongol term: Erkeun or Arkaim) religion. It was
only in about 1625, when the "Stele of the Spread of Da-qin (Eastern
Roman Empire or Syria) Nestorianism in China" was discovered in Xi-an,
that people first knew that Christianity had been in China during the
Tang dynasty. After the discovery of this stele, it was given great
attention by the Western missionaries in China as well as European
scholars and a great amount of research was conducted upon it because it
proved the long-term existence of Christianity in China. That is to say,
the identification of Nestorianism as a form of Christianity was
something which happened after 1625. At the time of Zheng He,
Nestorianism had long ceased to exist, and certainly no-one knew that
the Nestorianism of the Tang dynasty was a form of Christianity. This
proves that the annotation "The people here all worship God (shang-di)
and their religion is called 'Jing'" found on the "Overall Map of the
Geography of all under Heaven" could only have been created after 1625,
and certainly could not have come from the age of Zheng He.
....Carbon 14 dating can only determine the age of the ink and paper.
If this is indeed a map from the Qian-long period, it will be good news
as many maps from that time have been destroyed by natural and man-made
disasters. The non-historical nature of the annotations within red
borders cannot but cause us to have grave doubts about this map. The map
not only reflects the influence of Western culture on China after the
great geographical discoveries, but also a proof that only a very few
advanced Chinese people studied Western culture at that time. In the
long stream of Chinese history, what is evident by its lack is this
spirit of actively studying those cultures which are different from
ours. If we use this valuable map to weave a modern fairy-tale about
"Zheng He discovering the world" it will be a violation of the real
significance of this map

.....We can see in the few annotations on the "Overall Map of the
Geography of all under Heaven" which have been revealed the vestiges of
European missionaries in China. On the west coast of America, there is
an annotation which reads: "The local people of this place have
black-red skin and on their head and at their waist they wear feathers.
They are practiced in cannibalism." One just has to look at Aleni's
"World Atlas" ( "Zhi-fang wai-ji" (of 1623 -gw) which notes of North
America that "The men and women all wear feathers and capes of tiger and
bear fur" of look at the "Map of the Complete Geography of all Under
Heaven" where it is noted on the southern part of Africa that "The
skin of the people here is the colour of black lacquer, their teeth are
white, their lips red and their hair curly." Or one can look at Aleni's
"World Atlas" where it is noted that "There are many countries here. The
people are all of variants of black colour. As you move northwards, they
become lighter, and as you move southwards they become darker, with some
even the colour of lacquer. However, their teeth and eyes are extremely
white. Here, as in Verbeist's (1623-1688) "Illustrated Explanation of
Geography", one can see similar types of descriptions.

Our analysis of the "Overall Map of the Geography of all under
Heaven" indicates that it is in the form of a European map, with
annotations similar to those of the Western missionaries who came to
China. There is no evidence of anything to do with Zheng He.

Gong Ying-yan of the Ningbo Institute of Technology, Zhejiang University

The 1418 map, published decades before Columbus, da Gama and Magellan
set sail, shows the whole world with remarkable accuracy. Each continent
of the world has correct shape, mass, latitude and longitude and
position. All oceans of the world are displayed, many major rivers (the
Potomac leading to Washington DC) and innumerable islands.

If the map is considered genuine, history will have to be rewritten.
Columbus did not 'discover' America; da Gama was not the first to round
the cape; Magellan was not the first to circumnavigate the world; Cook
did not 'discover' Australia; New Zealand was not first settled by
Maoris but by Chinese; the Portuguese were not the first foreigners to
settle Brazil, Mozambique and Angola, nor the Spanish Chile, Peru,
Argentina, Colombia and Venezuela. The Chinese had accurately surveyed
and settled the world before European voyages of exploration started.

This 1418 map, shows every continent of the world. The speakers will
present evidence for the audience to consider that Columbus, da Gama and
Magellan used copies of this map to reach the New World.
....Expert evidence

To date all experts who have given their opinion on the 1418 map
consider it to be genuine. These opinions will be available for viewing.

"Yesterday, Waikato University revealed it had asked Menzies to stop using its data on his website and in his books.....''
.....We asked him to remove those, not because we were not happy with the dates, but because we were not overly happy with being associated with his interpretations of those dates," said Fiona Petchey of Waikato's internationally recognised carbon-dating unit.

Menzies was in Auckland promoting his latest edition, which centres on the voyage of a fleet of Chinese ships dispatched to explore the world by China's emperor Zhu Di in 1421.

The book contains copies of a map of the world that is believed to have been drawn during that voyage, and which may have been used by Christopher Columbus to rediscover the Americas.

The book centres on a map unveiled by its owner, Chinese lawyer Liu Gang, in January. He said it was an authentic 1763 copy of the 1418 original.

The original has not been found, but a 1763 copy could prove it existed, giving credence to the theory that Chinese sailors travelled the globe long before Europeans.

A fragment of the map was carbon-dated at the Waikato University unit, which said its tests showed there was an 80 per cent probability that the paper dated to either 1640-1690 or 1730-1810.

Dr Petchey stressed they had only tested the paper itself and not the ink on it. "Anyone can draw anything on it afterward. Anyone could obtain ancient paper."

She said she had had no contact at all with Menzies. "I do not stand behind the majority of what Gavin Menzies said and his overall theory I do not agree with. It's somewhat far-fetched."

Posting by Prof. Geoff Wade on the Maphist list - 24 March 2006

I remain convinced that this “1763/1418” map is a 21st-century fake. It was certainly produced by someone educated in simplified characters (meaning under the PRC in the last 50 years) and the purpose of the map is to support the Menzies thesis (and so it was produced within the last four years). I have incorporated, along with my own thoughts, some comments and observations from Jin Guo-ping, Zhou Zhen-he, Gong Ying-yan, and Hou Yang-fang in the following critique.
A. There are a number of issues about this map which need to be noted:

1. It is a dual-hemisphere map, a cartographic tradition exclusively European. California is represented as an island, copied straight from European maps of the 17th century. China is placed at the centre of the map as it was in early Jesuit maps of the world produced in China. It is based on a rough copy of a Jesuit map of the world.

2. It copies some parts of the text from early Jesuit maps.

3. Creating such a map is conditional upon recognition that world is a sphere. No indigenous Ming maps show that there was a belief that the world was a sphere......

5. The amount of non-coastal detail (including riverine systems extending thousands of miles from the coast) indicate that these maps could not have been produced by maritime voyagers. The information in the maps was obviously amassed over time by cultures who had travelled widely. It fits perfectly within the history of European cartography, but is a complete anomaly in Chinese cartography.......

7. The representation of China is poor. Why should Chinese cartographers have represented the lands with which they were so familiar so poorly?

8. Some of the persons who are supposed to have authenticated the map -- Professor Robert Cribbs, Dr. Gunnar Thompson, Charlotte Harris Rees, Lam Yee Din, Robin Lind, Gerald Andrew Bottomley and Anatole Andro -- have not even seen the map. None of these persons is an expert in any relevant field.

B. Annotations

3. The eunuch Zheng He is referred to as Ma San-bao. No one would have dared to use his original name given that the emperor had assigned him the surname Zheng.......


5.. There are various simplified characters ( particularly yu), used in the map, which while in use during the 18th century , would not have been used on a map intended for submission to the Court. This also suggests creation of map by modern person who was unfamiliar with the classical distinctions between these characters......

7. The Himalayas are marked as the highest mountains in the world. This fact was only discovered in the 19th century.

C. The annotations in red are supposedly from 1418.

1. The style of the language used in the annotations is not congruent with usual Ming language, cartographic or otherwise. It is a modern attempt at sounding “classical”......

3. The name of Korea is given as Gao-li. By 1418, it had long been changed to Chao-xian.

4. The name of Vietnam is given as Annam. By 1418, this had long become the Chinese province of Jiao-zhi.

5. The provincial names Hu-bei and Hu-nan are given. In 1418, these had not been created. The areas were part of Hu-guang.....

.... In short, the map is simply a litany of errors, many simplistic. There is absolutely no possibility that this is anything but a 21st century map, produced in order to try to profit from Menzies’ 1421 hypothesis.

This map by the Venetian cartographer, Albertin de Virga, shows Marco Polo’s “Southern Continent” southeast of Asia. The island-continent is called “Ca-paru or Great India.” The map was made between 1410 and 1414. It was not until more than a century later that Francisco Pizarro, a Spaniard, finally reached Peru. He arrived at the shores of a southern mainland that was already named “Peru.” And it was already included on Chinese, Venetian, and Portuguese maps. Western historians have given Pizarro credit for discovering Peru—even though it was already discovered and mapped by somebody else.

If we place the coastline from de Virga’s map beside the coastline of Peru—we find a very close match. Sometime before the 15th century, somebody made an accurate survey of the coast of Peru. Only the Chinese had the technology and resources to make such a map—at this remote location—prior to the 15th century.

Ancient & early maps were works of art, embellished with details that do not always reflect cartographic reality.
The huge inland lakes & seas on unexplored interiors, such as the African continent above is one example.

People can match up such embellished and fantastic pieces and declare a coastal shape fits with Australia for example (as has been done) but this is not proof it either represents Australia & certainly does not means proof the map makers went there.

Without details in logistical records of journeys coming and going from such lands, a physical trace on the land in question (like a Chinese artefact found 100% securely in a pre-European site) this sort of stuff is thoroughly unexciting and pretty crude IMO.
This is unconvincing in itself when even comparitively well known areas of land represented on such maps from early exploration need not conform to physical reality. The maps are typically unrealistic by modern standards but of course a wavering line can be matched with somewhere if you try hard enough.... and chose one spot..... and ignore the rest.
Essentially people can write books but it is no more a mystery than somebody throwing a handful of cherries onto the icing of a chocolate cake and then an 'expert' come and decide the angles and pattern of the cherries correspond to the astral alignments of Egyptian pyramids. Hence the cake was made by ancient people, Egyptians no less!
I tend to go for Occams razor on these things. A conclusion is more sound when it requires the least amount of speculations and heaped suppositions.
Tomfoolery with coastlines is anything but "quite convinci{ing}".
The way in which the earliest navigational charts were composed was explored when people challenged Gavin Menzies' attempts to do the very same thing when matching up bumps and river mouths (quite generously I might add) with modern features on then unexplored continents.

I wonder why the western Media is so interested in this one.

Yet no UK?

Because they want to pad this off as Chinese nationalism to a) hype up the China threat and to exchange as currency for their own revisionism. Many people also greatly distort the concepts of "barbarian" and "Middle Kingdom" of Ancient China to justify their own nationalistic notions. It's tried and true propaganda.

And how is it that zero longitude runs right through Greenwich?

Tell me about it... Should be Paris, really ! Ah, perfidious Albion !

Mais Oui. And not even the Left Bank. Right down the Champs Elysee'!