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China History Forum, Chinese History Forum > Chinese History Topics > Chinese Ethnic Groups and Peoples > Chinese Anthropology
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Kediren
QUOTE(qrasy @ Jan 27 2006, 11:37 AM) [snapback]4786799[/snapback]
You must be referring to this image, right?
http://www.painetworks.com/photos/ha/ha1045.JPG
However, when I searched with keyword "blue eyed" in painetworks.com, this man did not appear.
Other people appeared.
the keywords for him are actually:
7109 china old man xinghe village shanxi xian sean sprague

Actually I don't see his eyes as really blue... (if zoomed larger)


and this quote from Quetzalcoatl:
another picture in the same thread which may be interpreted "green eyed South Chinese" seems to be actually Japanese...



rolleyes.gif
MC420
Try to convince us one can't find one fair skin and blue or green eyes person among over 1.2 billion Chinese eh! I thought we would have much tougher time to recruit another Yao Ming to play for the NBA! smile.gif
qrasy
post-81-1094881491.gif Statement of "Exist or not exist; Right or wrong" rolleyes.gif:
To prove non-existence of something is harder than to prove existence of something.
To find counterexample is easier than to prove that something is always right.
tongue.gif biggrin.gif
浪淘音
QUOTE(qrasy @ Jan 26 2006, 11:47 PM) [snapback]4786672[/snapback]
Yes, certainly it's me. (so what?? I'm just referring to fact)
"Blonde, blue eyed Chinese" is already answered by Warhead anyway.

What did you see? Any help is appreciated. biggrin.gif

Yes, certainly. I wonder if I would see the rejection on number 2 post-81-1094881491.gif

Well, let not refer to Mongolian/Siberian stock. Take a look at Tocharians.


Tocharians were white central asians who lived in the Tarim basin but were then pushed further westward. what does that have to do with the nomads(who were obviously racially mongoloid) that made deep incursions into the North China plain

i've never heard anyone classify them as "mongolian/Siberian" stock
Conan the destroyer
QUOTE(qrasy @ Jan 27 2006, 10:37 AM) [snapback]4786799[/snapback]
You must be referring to this image, right?
http://www.painetworks.com/photos/ha/ha1045.JPG
However, when I searched with keyword "blue eyed" in painetworks.com, this man did not appear.
Other people appeared.
the keywords for him are actually:
7109 china old man xinghe village shanxi xian sean sprague

Actually I don't see his eyes as really blue... (if zoomed larger)


and this quote from Quetzalcoatl:
another picture in the same thread which may be interpreted "green eyed South Chinese" seems to be actually Japanese...


Hmm, his eyes are still at least green, though.
Borjigin Ayurbarwada
"This is rather naive. "Men and women are exactly the same" is nonsense

If you would not realize the harm of such a depiction, then you do not have insight into how people grow up

Psychology is everything"


Then thats got to be changed doesn't it? Mao did a good job of it. In his times, there is little difference between woman and man. Anything in contrast is counterrevolutionary, fear topples all bias, and that should be the way it goes.
qrasy
QUOTE(Conan the destroyer @ Jan 28 2006, 01:37 AM) [snapback]4786875[/snapback]
Hmm, his eyes are still at least green, though.
The color is very close to grey, I even be sure about the color it's close to. Perhaps brown.
Most Asians have dark brown eye (if illuminated quite strongly, the brownness could be seen clearly. That could be illusion though, but I believe since the pigment should be melanine).
DannyJo
Slightly related to the topic.

Some Japanese are up in arms about the plans to make it possible for a female to inherit the Japanese Imperial title.

One of the reasons given to object to a female monarch was:

"If Aiko becomes the reigning empress, and gets involved with a blue-eyed foreigner while studying abroad and marries him, their child may be the emperor," he told the rally at a Tokyo hall.

"We should get united and prevent the Cabinet from submitting legislation to parliament," he said.

"We'll do our best to preserve the authentic tradition and culture and protect our nation."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4669408.stm

Looks like I'll never get my offspring to be Emperor- If only I had brown eyes rolleyes.gif
TMPikachu
QUOTE(lobster @ Jan 26 2006, 09:14 AM) [snapback]4786550[/snapback]
Hey, why are some of us so irritated about only Western men+Chinese women are mentioned but not vice versa? Are you guys advocating equal rights for different sexes, or simply think women are a "prize" to "win"? Come on this is the 21st century not 12th......

Well, yeah, this is the 21st century! Hollywood depictions, stereotyping, William Hung! etc. etc. blah blah blah and so on.


and as Racist as it sounds, for the monarch of a country to be a different ethnicity than his people will just be a bad image, so it shouldn't happen. I don't think too many Indians were thrilled about having a British Empress. Though if the Japanese are really so worried about it, they should do more than just pass silly laws, get their sons to study abroad and bring back some blue eyed brides.
DannyJo
QUOTE(TMPikachu @ Feb 6 2006, 06:23 PM) [snapback]4788622[/snapback]
and as Racist as it sounds, for the monarch of a country to be a different ethnicity than his people will just be a bad image, so it shouldn't happen. I don't think too many Indians were thrilled about having a British Empress. Though if the Japanese are really so worried about it, they should do more than just pass silly laws, get their sons to study abroad and bring back some blue eyed brides.


I don't think it sounds that racist, but I would take a look at European monarchies and their ethnicity.
To me it looks like the European monarchies are all one big in-breeding family, they all seem to be each others cousins.

The British queen is of German stock- though whether you count this as a different ethnicity, depends on your view of races (If white is white, full stop, then you probably won't) and I think it has been pretty common in Europe to have had a King of a territory who was not from that ethnicity: Charles V of Spain, William the conqueror. However I can't find a non-European monarch ruling a European country.

And in China the last group of emperors were Manchu- admittedly now this is part of zhongguo and they are Chinese nationality now- who at the time were foreign barbarian invaders. Also looking back to the Yuan, Mongols held the Chinese throne. However how physically dissamilar these groups were I don't know (and I don't want to get into any of those genetic marker conversations) however I don't think there have been any non-mongoloid emperors of China.

So are we saying it's OK to be a foreign ruler as long as you don't look to dissimilar, that to radical a departure from the standard look would negate the monarchs role as the "embodiment of the people."

So it seems that ethnicity based on Nationality doesn't matter, it's the physical dissimalarity from your subjects.

P.S. On an interesting note the most fervent royalist I know is my girlfriend's mum, she is a Mauritian and left when it declared independence from Britain, she still believes this to have been a mistake, and as a dark-skinned subject had no problem with the white King.
ren
QUOTE(qrasy @ Jan 27 2006, 05:37 AM) [snapback]4786799[/snapback]
and this quote from Quetzalcoatl:

QUOTE
~An old Chuckchi woman with "blue eyes" seems to have stigmatism, since I saw Nelson Mandela with "blue eyes: too.

Sorry. What I meant to say was "cataracts" and not "stigmatism", which is an incorrect reference to "astigmatism" anyway.

Cataracts: Cataracts will affect most people if they live long enough. This disorder affects 60 percent of people older than 60 and occurs when the normally clear, aspirin-sized lens of the eye starts to become cloudy. impairing vision.
http://www.medicinenet.com/cataracts/article.htm

Many old people tend to have "greyish" eyes as a result of cataracts. As you can see, all those "blue-eyed" people are old. My maternal grandfather had it.

On a side note, I have seen two Chinese with non-brown eyes. One I think is part Russian. He's a friend of the family. Another was a carpenter in Manchuria I saw with grey eyes. he also might be part Russian.

Is it possible for Chinese to have blue eyes besides being an albino? Very unlikely. You have to have the alleles for it, and they don't exist in the population. There's always a chance of freak mutations though.


QUOTE(qrasy @ Jan 27 2006, 05:37 AM) [snapback]4786799[/snapback]
another picture in the same thread which may be interpreted "green eyed South Chinese" seems to be actually Japanese...

I've never seen a Japanese woman or even north Chinese woman that looks like this woman:
MC420
QUOTE
I've never seen a Japanese woman or even north Chinese woman that looks like this woman:



Who could tell if she wears color contact lenses! rolleyes.gif
ren
It's from a site that documents green-eyed people, not from a random pic search, though she could be faking it there as well. Her name on the site doesn't seem like an authentic Chinese name.

Can't find the site now.
MC420
Regarding this "green eye" looking lady; it's plausible that she has mixed Caucasian blood therefore the recessive trait of her green eye could be expressed! g.gif Other than that her green eyes appear to be quite prevailent among ethnic folks from the far Western parts of China though. smile.gif
Kediren
QUOTE
It's from a site that documents green-eyed people, not from a random pic search, though she could be faking it there as well. Her name on the site doesn't seem like an authentic Chinese name.


well. and there we have it..

tru chinese and not tru chinese..

dude.. you speak again you self..
ren
QUOTE(MC420 @ Feb 17 2006, 04:18 PM) [snapback]4790341[/snapback]
Regarding this "green eye" looking lady; it's plausible that she has mixed Caucasian blood therefore the recessive trait of her green eye could be expressed! g.gif Other than that her green eyes appear to be quite prevailent among ethnic folks from the far Western parts of China though. smile.gif

She doesn't look like a Western Chinese minority at all. In fact she looks southern Chinese/SE Asian with her pronathism and the way the middle part of her nose slightly indents.

QUOTE(Kediren @ Feb 17 2006, 04:19 PM) [snapback]4790342[/snapback]
well. and there we have it..

tru chinese and not tru chinese..

dude.. you speak again you self..

Do you mean to say "you speak against yourself"? How am I speaking against myself when I took no position in the first place? READ.
MC420
She does look Amerasian or Eurasian though; especially, with her freckle skin. g.gif
Kediren
http://www.athro.com/evo/gen/inherit1.html

In humans three genes involved in eye color are known. They explain typical patterns of inheritance of brown, green, and blue eye colors. However, they don't explain everything. Grey eye color, Hazel eye color, and multiple shades of blue, brown, green, and grey are not explained. The molecular basis of these genes is not known. What proteins they produce and how these proteins produce eye color is not known. Eye color at birth is often blue, and later turns to a darker color. Why eye color can change over time is not known. An additional gene for green is also postulated, and there are reports of blue eyed parents producing brown eyed children (which the three known genes can't easily explain [mutations, modifier genes that supress brown, and additional brown genes are all potential explanations]).
Conan the destroyer
I once saw a guy from Sichuan with greenish-brownish eyes, thoughts?
DearCoolZ
my grandpa has greyish eyes so?
Kediren
well.. i think its a time if we tell you a truth..

Dude we all have blue eyes (colored darker by melanin)

The eye color is determined by pigments in the iris. The basic clay/tone with humans is generally blue. This particularly shows up with babies, who have usually blue eyes, since with them the coloring material melanin, which is responsible for the colouring of the pigments, is hardly present. The actual eye color adjusted itself only at the end of the first Year after born.

By storage of the brown-coloring melanins into the iris musculature forms a characteristic eye color, which reaches from blue over green to brown, with according to high quantity of melanin even up to black.

(and if a old people loose a melanin with a time then they get a grey or blue colored eyes)

Rarely it can occur that only in an eye pigments store themselves (iris Heterochromie). Then the person possesses different eye colors (usually green and blue).



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterochromia

http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=29


i hope that a autor of this topic get this answer as good chance to understand why someones means about a "race" and "ethnical" look is more stupid fantasy as a reallity..
Conan the destroyer
QUOTE(DearCoolZ @ Feb 19 2006, 11:17 PM) [snapback]4790711[/snapback]
my grandpa has greyish eyes so?


Your grandpa is a Hui, correct?
qrasy
QUOTE(rudeboy @ Feb 18 2006, 05:35 AM) [snapback]4790347[/snapback]
She doesn't look like a Western Chinese minority at all. In fact she looks southern Chinese/SE Asian with her pronathism and the way the middle part of her nose slightly indents.

What do you mean by Pro[g]nathism? g.gif
Very protruding jaw?

QUOTE(DearCoolZ @ Feb 20 2006, 07:17 AM) [snapback]4790711[/snapback]
my grandpa has greyish eyes so?
How about cataract [as referred to by rudeboy]?

QUOTE(Kediren @ Feb 20 2006, 08:14 AM) [snapback]4790712[/snapback]
well.. i think its a time if we tell you a truth..

Dude we all have blue eyes (colored darker by melanin)
Almost every Asian I see had [extremely]dark brown Eyes...

QUOTE
The eye color is determined by pigments in the iris. The basic clay/tone with humans is generally blue.
While basic color for skin is pink..
Kediren
QUOTE
While basic color for skin is pink..
no. it is white (it became pink because a blood colored it into pink(red+white=pink)

QUOTE
Almost every Asian I see had [extremely]dark brown Eyes...


and? do you realy have read what i do write?
qrasy
QUOTE(Kediren @ Feb 20 2006, 04:04 PM) [snapback]4790781[/snapback]
no. it is white (it became pink because a blood colored it into pink(red+white=pink)

g.gif I wonder how [East] Asians could get it Yellow...

QUOTE
and? do you realy have read what i do write?
Well, I'm not refuting. Just saying most Asian eyes have very concentrate melanine. biggrin.gif
Kediren
QUOTE
I wonder how [East]Asians could get it Yellow...


hm.. i dont see yellow skin on people.. do you to?
qrasy
QUOTE(Kediren @ Feb 21 2006, 11:30 PM) [snapback]4790944[/snapback]
hm.. i dont see yellow skin on people.. do you to?
Well, not me tongue.gif

But "Yellow" usually refers to East Asians.
Though it should actually be ... light-brownish.
ren
QUOTE(qrasy @ Feb 19 2006, 10:19 PM) [snapback]4790742[/snapback]
What do you mean by Pro[g]nathism? g.gif
Very protruding jaw?

Yes, I meant "prognathism". It was a typo.

Your mocking tone is not needed. A lot of your questionings are frivolous, or maybe I'm not wise enough to see where you are going with them. post-81-1094881456.gif I end up answering a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with anything.
qrasy
QUOTE(rudeboy @ Feb 22 2006, 01:05 AM) [snapback]4790976[/snapback]
lot of your questionings are frivolous, or maybe I'm not wise enough to see where you are going with them. post-81-1094881456.gif I end up answering a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with anything.
I was just wondering why I couldn't see any real protrusion of jaw from the female's image...
ren
QUOTE(qrasy @ Feb 21 2006, 12:16 PM) [snapback]4790979[/snapback]
I was just wondering why I couldn't see any real protrusion of jaw from the female's image...

It's hard to miss. Why don't you post a picture of someone who does have a prognathic jaw?
qrasy
QUOTE(rudeboy @ Feb 22 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]4790986[/snapback]
It's hard to miss. Why don't you post a picture of someone who does have a prognathic jaw?
unsure.gif sorry, I don't have the photo now.

Why don't you post a picture of someonw who doesn't have prognathic jaw and compare to someone who are as prognathic as that picture *from the side* (to make it much clearer)?
Kediren
QUOTE
But "Yellow" usually refers to East Asians.
Though it should actually be ... light-brownish.


boha.. really?
and who use this "yellow" term for East-Asians?

"light-brownish" <-- only scin or completly body? and that all time?
qrasy
QUOTE(Kediren @ Feb 23 2006, 02:49 AM) [snapback]4791190[/snapback]
boha.. really?
and who use this "yellow" term for East-Asians?

"light-brownish" <-- only scin or completly body? and that all time?
Well, tongue.gif when "classical racialistic reference" is used, "color" refers to "skin color"....
"White" and "Black" are supposed to be from *some* Europeans (g.gif well, correct me if I'm wrong), then so is "Yellow".
xaphod
Okay, I'll comment from my perspective: as a non-Chinese North American woman married to a Canadian-born Chinese man (who speaks but does not read Cantonese), living in Canada.

We have a young daughter who is clearly of mixed blood (picture attached). Most everyone where we live (which is a pretty racially diverse community) considers my daugther Chinese, not white - although both Chinese and non-Chinese will generally recognize that her features are mixed. The Chinese community here (I am thinking about recent immigrants mostly) is quite anxious to claim her as one of "their own."

I agree there is a lot of pressure on Canadian born Chinese to marry Chinese - I know my husband experienced that for many years, as have others. However, his family has never been anything but good to me (brown haired, brown eyed causcasian of Scottish descent).

I think that, for causcasians in Canada, cultural factors are more significant than appearance, whereas in the Chinese-Canadian community (those that are not assimilated into Canadian mainstream culture) appearence alone is enough to make them consider someone Chinese.
Peter S
QUOTE(xaphod @ Feb 24 2006, 11:07 AM) *
Okay, I'll comment from my perspective: as a non-Chinese North American woman married to a Canadian-born Chinese man (who speaks but does not read Cantonese), living in Canada.

We have a young daughter who is clearly of mixed blood (picture attached). Most everyone where we live (which is a pretty racially diverse community) considers my daugther Chinese, not white - although both Chinese and non-Chinese will generally recognize that her features are mixed. The Chinese community here (I am thinking about recent immigrants mostly) is quite anxious to claim her as one of "their own."

I agree there is a lot of pressure on Canadian born Chinese to marry Chinese - I know my husband experienced that for many years, as have others. However, his family has never been anything but good to me (brown haired, brown eyed causcasian of Scottish descent).

I think that, for causcasians in Canada, cultural factors are more significant than appearance, whereas in the Chinese-Canadian community (those that are not assimilated into Canadian mainstream culture) appearence alone is enough to make them consider someone Chinese.


Your post is over a year ago, but I reply anyway.

The Hua/Chinese people is not a homogeneous group. generalization is not useful.

Although you said that your husband is Cantonese, I suspect that he is actually Taishanese. The Taishanese people originally came from Taishan, which used to be a poor and backward region (more advanced now). Taishanese people used to be very conservative; some of them probably still are. For the Taishanese people to accept your daughter as one of their own is good. (If your daughter had been half black, the Taishanese people would probably shunt her - Taishanese people also practise racism).

fireball
QUOTE(Tibet Libre @ Jan 25 2006, 06:15 PM) *
Imagine two scenarios:

1. A blonde, blue eyed foreigner with curly hair and European features comes to China, he falls in love with an enchanting Chinese woman, they marry and a child is born to them. The child looks as a child of such a couple is likely to look, that is neither like his or her European father nor like his or her Chinese mother but like both and none of them at the same time. The couple lives happily together in the PRC resp. ROC, everything is fine and the child grows up there.

Will the child be recognized by other Chinese as full Chinese or not?
2. A blonde, blue eyed foreigner with curly hair and European features comes to China, settles down, begins to feel at home and lives for long years there. One day he wakes up and feels Chinese, so he decides to apply for the citizenship of the PRC resp. the ROC.

Will it be granted by the Chinese authorities? And, more importantly, will be recognized as full Chinese, if I may say so, by the Chinese, his neighbours, his work colleagues, his friends?
I am asking these questions against the background of the frequent assertion that "to be Chinese" is much, much more a cultural than an ethnic thing. If so, then there shouldnt be much of a problem with a blonde and blue eyed Chinese amidst his black haired and brown eyed peers and hence he should be accepted by all as a full member of the Chinese community, shouldnt he? Yet I have to see a Chinese person with blonde hair or pitch-black skin colour.

My assumption therefore is, that the emphatic cultural, not ethnic definition of Chineseness isnt so inclusive after all, but actually is only true of those who are already Chinese. Whereas vis-a-vis foreigners from abroad, being Chinese is viewed a very exclusive term, irespective of his degree of integration or assimilation...
Please answer my above questions faithfully, whatever your opinion on my interpretation below. :-)


1. I think there are now a lot of these type of children in both PRC and ROC. From my experience, I believe they were more fully accepted as Chinese if they live in big cities. It maybe a bit harder if they live in isolated small villages.

2. In my childhood, about 30 years ago, there was a blue-eyed blonde-haired missionary woman who had lived in Taiwan for many years and did apply for ROC citizenship, and she got it. She was treated as full Chinese by everyone around her. I believe she passed away in Taiwan also. I think she lived in Taiwan for more than 50 years. She was quite famous when she decided to get ROC citizenship because very few Westerners applied ROC citizenship at that time. I saw her buying vegetables and meats from street side vendors, and those old men and women treated her like any other local Chinese customers, making jokes, asking for her health, and having price duels with her. When she passed away, many Chinese went to her funeral because she had helped many people in her life. I remember everyone was emphasizing that she was a true Chinese.
moobie
No, he would not be Han. But later, maybe 500-1,000 years later they will expand the "Han" ethnicity to include more recently Sinicized populations. And Japanese men "marry" a lot of Russian women; so you can drop your arrogance about being supposedly more masculine.
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