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Yun Sho and Yun Sh


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#1 snowybeagle

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 10:17 AM

Yun Sho (袁绍) and Yun Sh (袁术) held considerable territories as warlords, but they did not seem to be that significant a player.

How were they able to rise in power or command any respect as neither seemed particularly brilliant nor valiant nor virtuous?

#2 Ma Su

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Posted 16 April 2006 - 08:02 AM

As far as I understand it, the Yuan family had held high rank for arund three generations with power, influence and cash. Yuan Shao and Shu seem to have been pretty capable men and with Yuan Shao as a sort of advisor to He Jin, then given an Imperial Staff, his repuation would have increased.

When lords joined up in fear of the Prime Minister Dong Zhuo, Yuan Shao was picked partly for his own expirence but also becuase of his family name and repuation. Becuase of fame and cash, they could get people to join them and could easily armies to secure what they had when the fighting began

#3 Iamnick

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Posted 16 April 2006 - 12:46 PM

Yuan Shao in his early days seemed extreamly capable, valiant, and virtuous. Yuan Shu... not so much the latter two, but he was definitly capable.

Both held great power, both had talented men under their services, and both had decent military records (shao moreso than Shu of course). However, both made one glaring mistake, and those two mistakes are what they are most known for (Shu proclaiming himself emperor, and Shao losing to Cao Cao).

Both mistakes can be easily excused however. Yuan Shu, with Sun Ce under him and Lu Bu as his ally, held more territory than anyone else at the time. Who could have foreseen that his two allies would betray him? Also, with the warlords so occupied with each other in the north, an alliance the likes of which Dong had to deal with wouldn't (and as we see, didn't) occur.

Shao, on the other hand, had every reason to expect he would win, and it seems like he simply had too much going on at once and couldn't handle it all. As they say, too many cooks in the kitchen...
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#4 snowybeagle

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Posted 17 April 2006 - 03:09 AM

The only positive account I ever read of Yun Sh was 陆绩怀橘 from 『孝篇』 when he commended the six-year old L Jī for the latter's filial piety to the boy's mother.

#5 Cao Song

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 07:25 PM

Yuan Shu had to have some talent or nobody would have followed him.
Yuan Shao was a capable leader, but he didnt listen to his advisors causing them to doubt his ability (which led to Yuan Shaos downfall)
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#6 snowybeagle

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 09:04 PM

The problem is there seems to be little historical documentation about them, and the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms gave little enough reasons for them to be considered as significant.

On Yun Sho:

陈寿:外宽内忌,好谋无决,有才而不能用,闻善而不能纳,废嫡立庶,舍礼崇爱,至于后嗣颠蹙,社稷倾覆,非不幸也。昔项羽背范增之谋,以丧其王业;绍之杀田丰,乃甚於羽远矣!《三国志》
曹操:吾知绍之为人,志大而智小,色厉而胆薄,忌克而少威,兵多而分画不明,将骄而政令不一,土地虽广,粮食虽丰,適足以为吾奉也。 《三国志》


In contrast, I found more about the historical Dŏng Zhuō (董卓), especially his earlier successes in life prior to marching into the capital at the behest of Supreme General H Jn (大将军何进). At least it showed he had some notable achiements and experience as compared to the Yun brothers who seemed to be untested and yet commanded influence merely based on their pedigree.

#7 Moose

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 12:11 PM

The problem is there seems to be little historical documentation about them, and the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms gave little enough reasons for them to be considered as significant.

On Yun Sho:
In contrast, I found more about the historical Dŏng Zhuō (董卓), especially his earlier successes in life prior to marching into the capital at the behest of Supreme General H Jn (大将军何进). At least it showed he had some notable achiements and experience as compared to the Yun brothers who seemed to be untested and yet commanded influence merely based on their pedigree.


What exactly is their pedigree?
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#8 snowybeagle

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 10:32 PM

What exactly is their pedigree?


汝南袁氏 - The Yun clan from RŭNn, a place in modern Henan province, was a prestigious family during the Eastern Han Dynasty (东汉).

Yun Sho and Yun Sh traced their lineage to Yun Ān (袁安) who served as prime minister during the reigns of Emperor Zhāng (汉章帝, reigned AD 76-88) and Emperor H (汉和帝, reigned AD 89-105).

His account could be found in 后汉书卷四十五 袁张韩周列传第三十五.

Yun Ān's own predecessors were officials in the Imperial Court, but the family had declined greatly by his generation. Despite his learnings, he served only for a while as a minor clerk in a county office (县功曹). He resigned after refusing to participate in irregularities in the course of his work.

During one winter, after a particularly strong snowstorm, a magistrate in RŭNn (汝阳令) went around to inspect the conditions of the common folks. He noticed that while most families were clearing the snow from their roofs and pathways and out stocking up food, there was one house which showed no signs of life. Upon investigation, the magistrate discovered Yun Ān alone lying ill in bed, without a drop of water left in the house.

The magistrate asked Yun Ān why he did not call for help from the neighbours. Yun Ān replied that the neighbours would be busy clearing their own houses from the snow and finding food, and hence did not want to trouble them. Impressed, the magistrate officially recommended Yun Ān as a xio lin (孝廉).

During that era, entry into the civil service was by official recommendations, and a recommended candidate at entry level was known as a xio lin (孝廉). Due to strong Confucian influence, one of the prerequisites for candidates, besides being learned, was to possess the virtues such as filiat piety (xio 孝) and incorruptibility (lin 廉). This was during the reign of Emperor Mng (汉明帝, reigned AD 58-75).

Yun Ān was first posted as magistrate. In AD 70, Prince Li Ying of Chŭ (楚王刘英) was accused of treason. The following year, Yun Ān was assigned as prefect to Chŭ to investigate the thousands of people implicated in the charge and had been imprisoned. Yun Ān resisted the pressure to settle the matter quickly (and shoddily) and petitioned for those deemed innocent after his investigations. He gained the approval of the emperor and secured the release of more than 400 families.

He was next promoted to be the governor of the Henan (河南尹) region, where the capital city was located. During his decade of tenure, he established law and order firmly and won numerous respects, and his fame spread far and wide.

Yun Ān continued to be promoted and during the late reign of Emperor Zhāng, appointed as Grand Censor (司空), the Prime Minister (司徒), a post which he continued when the next ruler succeeded to the throne at the age of 18.

His sons: Yun Chăng (袁敞) rose to be a Grand Censor for Emperor Ān (汉安帝, reigned AD 106-125), and Yun Jīng (袁京) became a prefect in Sichuan (蜀郡太守).

Yun Jīng's son Yun Tāng (袁汤) was Grand Marshal (太尉) during the reign of Emperor Hun (汉桓帝, reigned AD 146-168).

Yun Tāng's son Yun Fng (袁逢) also became a Grand Censor during the reign of Emperor Lng (汉灵帝, reigned AD 168-189). The novel Romance of the Three Kingdom basically started with this emperor on his deathbed.

Many other members of the clan since Yun Ān also occupied a number of top positions in the Imperial Court.

Yun Sho and Yun Sh were sons of Yun Fng. Yun Sho was son of a concubine, so Yun Sh was said to despise his older brother.

Apart from having their own family members in prominent positions, the clan also associated closely with other powerful families and figures.

Edited by snowybeagle, 19 April 2006 - 10:34 PM.


#9 Yun

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Posted 23 April 2006 - 12:30 PM

Yuan Shao defeated and destroyed Gongsun Zan in a bitter war lasting from 192 to 199, conquering Youzhou 幽州 and thus making his territory the largest among the warlords. This made him confident that he could defeat Cao Cao in 200, and hence he launched the campaign that ended at Guandu.

He did not realize that Cao Cao was a far superior tactician compared to Gongsun Zan.

As for Yuan Shu, he miscalculated and acted too soon. When the Han emperor fled from Chang'an following the conflict between Li Jue and Guo Si, Li and Guo patched things up and went after him. Li and Guo caught up with and defeated the emperor's forces at Caoyang 曹阳 in the winter of 195, and Yuan Shu heard of this and concluded that the Liu clan was finished. A family as prestigious as his was best suited to inherit the mandate of heaven (there are also stories that he had obtained the imperial jade seal from Sun Jian). So he proclaimed himself emperor. But unexpectedly, the emperor made it to Luoyang, and Cao Cao came to offer him protection and bring him to Xuchang. So instead of being the next emperor, Yuan Shu became the biggest rebel under heaven.

It is also said that Yuan Shu was convinced from prognostication and Five Phases cosmology that he was destined to be emperor. His clan was supposedly descended from the sage-king Shun 舜, who was represented by Earth. Since the Han was represented by Fire, and Earth was next in the Five Phases cycle, the new dynasty had to be Shun's descendants... Furthermore, one of the prognostication texts (chenwei 谶纬, very popular in the Eastern Han dynasty) predicted that the one who succeeded the Han would be "dang tu gao" 当途高. The meaning of this was vague, but Yuan Shu interpreted it as a reference to his personal name Gonglu 公路, since 路 and 途 both mean 'road'.
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#10 Korin

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:00 AM

Yuan Shao was fatuous lord who didn't listen to his advisers and this caused his downfall and led to Xu You manipulating him during battle of Guandu.

 

Yuan Shu was a great warlord who went crazy with power when he found the imperial seal and he proclaimed himself emperor.

This caused a great uproar in China and everybody hated Yuan Shu and Yuan Shu was made a outlaw and Cao Cao made a alliance to finish off Yuan Shu once and for all.

 

and I don't think they were half-brothers, more like cousins.

 

Yuan Cheng was Yuan Shao's father and Yuan Feng was Yuan Shu's father.

Their fathers were brothers, so they are cousins.

 

Yuan Tang is grandfather of Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu...

and father of Yuan Cheng and Yuan Feng.

 

So I believe that they are relatives.

either half-brothers or cousins.

 

I go with cousins because half-brothers has same parent, NOT different fathers.

and they each have different mothers... this is a sign of being cousins and not half-brothers.


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#11 Ma Su

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:45 AM

No, yes, no.

 

Not great but yes, lost sight of the political reality at some point though wouldn't it was when he got the seal as he had that for some time.



#12 Korin

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 11:22 AM

Yuan Cheng was Yuan Shao's father

Yuan Feng was Yuan Shu's father.

 

Yuan Cheng and Yuan Feng are sons of Yuan Tang

 

and that was Shao and Shu's grandfather.

 

cousins!

 

and it was because he got the seal, if he never had the seal-he wouldn't of died in 199.


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