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On the ethnicity of the Sui and Tang emperors


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#226 Eidolon

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 11:50 PM

Although it doesn't apply to the people of today historically it may have been very bad. It might have something to do with what mariusj said although I'm not quite sure entirely what is meant by the viewpoint of unworthy that was held by the elites against the imperial clan. Anyways if they weren't making fun of the Tang emperors' ethnicity then they were probably refusing marriage on some other political grounding. It is weird to refuse marriage to imperial clan since that would improve your modicum holdings of power simply because the emperor wields the final authority of state.


The Northeast Aristocracy that Mariusj is referring to claimed they were the pure descendants of prestigious Han Dynasty clans - upholders of Han Chinese tradition with unblemished lineage, who had refused intermarriage with the barbarians of the Age of Fragmentation in order to preserve their noble lineage. They held the Northwest Aristocracy, to which the Tang emperors belonged, in disdain because they saw them as socially inferior clans that happened to gain a little political power, though the idea that they were semi-barbaric, since they had mixed with the Wu Hu, might be a contributing reason. The early Tang emperors were furious over this, but the Northeast Aristocracy was influential enough that destroying them was a no-go, and so more subtle means were adopted to attack those clans, like downgrading them in a list of most prestigious clans.

Qing was a little more complicated I think since they were themselves paranoid to a very large degree. Literal inquisitions by the emperor to assassinate entire families of one author for his seemingly unkindness in words against a regime headed by Manchu ethnic peoples.


Qing was different in the sense that it was an explicitly ethnically-oriented regime. The Manchus may have invented themselves in the heydays of Nurhaci, but they recognized, upon entering China, that they were an ethnic minority and that much of their political power came from being an ethnic minority. It was by maintaining their ethnic separateness and the Manchu identity that the Manchus were able to keep political power in their own hands and away from the civil bureaucracy that both the Ming and the Qing depended on to run the country. Ethnicity was thus not only a sideshow but a main component of Qing rule. The Manchus were an ethnic entity, bound by adherence to Manchu customs, genealogies, and histories, upheld by Manchu-specific institutions and laws, and which looked to the Han as a separate group that they must not be absorbed into.

The Manchus were never "assimilated" during the Qing.

Edited by Eidolon, 16 September 2011 - 11:58 PM.


#227 Tazfelis

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 08:59 AM

I did not read the entire pages, so in the end, are majority of Tang royal family Han or Xianbei? If they are mix, what are the percentage? 1/4 Han 3/4 Xianbei or 1/4 Xianbei 3/4 Han? If majority of them are Xianbei, why Tang are not considered foreign like Yuan and Qing dynasty? Xianbei are related to the Mongol right? Sorry if all these had been mention before, since I didn't read the entire 16 pages.

Edited by Tazfelis, 18 September 2011 - 09:34 AM.


#228 Eidolon

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 01:19 PM

You're looking for a simple answer to a complex question in which people do not even agree on the basic principles of. I'm sorry but, if you're not willing to spend the time, then all you're going to get are opinions.

If that's what you're looking for, then you might as well go for the "official" stance - which is that the Tang is Chinese and not Xianbei, though its early emperors' mothers were descended from Xianbei.

Edited by Eidolon, 22 September 2011 - 01:27 PM.


#229 Tazfelis

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:21 AM

You're looking for a simple answer to a complex question in which people do not even agree on the basic principles of. I'm sorry but, if you're not willing to spend the time, then all you're going to get are opinions.

If that's what you're looking for, then you might as well go for the "official" stance - which is that the Tang is Chinese and not Xianbei, though its early emperors' mothers were descended from Xianbei.


When you said Chinese,you mean Han Chinese, as in ethnic not nationality right? Because I know that there are some people out there in the internet who claim that <insert any dynasty in China> are a dynasty located in China but not considered Han Chinese(or something along those line). Not sure if they are nationalist or not.

Edited by Tazfelis, 23 September 2011 - 06:15 AM.


#230 mohistManiac

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 03:54 AM

Oooohhhh my stomach...
I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.

#231 Eidolon

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 06:53 PM


When you said Chinese,you mean Han Chinese, as in ethnic not nationality right? Because I know that there are some people out there in the internet who claim that <insert any dynasty in China> are a dynasty located in China but not considered Han Chinese(or something along those line). Not sure if they are nationalist or not.


Most historians use the term "Chinese" when describing the identity of the people who later became, in large part, the Han Chinese because ethnicity is a relatively recent construct that is not necessarily appropriate when describing ancient cultures and peoples. It is technically incorrect to talk about Han Chinese as an ethnicity during the Tang because it was not generally used during the Tang as an ethnic label. Nonetheless, for the purpose of simplifying the "official" stance in this case, you can think of "Chinese" as referring to "ethnic Han Chinese."

Edited by Eidolon, 23 September 2011 - 06:56 PM.


#232 Corean Chinghiz

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 10:25 AM

Calling the Tang and Sui emperors enemies of China means

- The House of Plantagenet are foreign occupiers of England
- Alexander the Great is an enemy of Greece and the interpretation would be twisted from unity to occupation in the case of the Greek city states
-William the Conqueror is an enemy of Britain (actually, he is considered one of Britain's great kings)

These ideas are not perfectly compatible, but in Chinese and European history, different as they are, many logical parallels can be made. Anti-China nationalists (Koreans) have a double standard. They come up with the common excuse that these histories are different whenever a connection can be made.

#233 Shiang

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:25 PM

When you said Chinese,you mean Han Chinese, as in ethnic not nationality right? Because I know that there are some people out there in the internet who claim that <insert any dynasty in China> are a dynasty located in China but not considered Han Chinese(or something along those line). Not sure if they are nationalist or not.


The tang emperors surname was li. They claimed to be descended patrilineally from famous han chinese like li gao, ruler of western liang, the han dynasty general li guang, and laozi, whose personal name was Li Er. In china, your ethnicity is determined by your patrilineal descent (from your father). So the tang emperors are han, despite xianbei blood from their mother's side.

#234 Vietnamese2

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 03:34 AM

220px-Tang_XianZong.jpg

TANG EMPEROR


Edited by Vietnamese2, 28 July 2013 - 03:36 AM.


#235 xng

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 03:56 AM

The tang emperors surname was li. They claimed to be descended patrilineally from famous han chinese like li gao, ruler of western liang, the han dynasty general li guang, and laozi, whose personal name was Li Er. In china, your ethnicity is determined by your patrilineal descent (from your father). So the tang emperors are han, despite xianbei blood from their mother's side.

 

 

Agree. Many Han Chinese are not a pure breed.

 

Some of the Northern Han Chinese married the various Altaic people on the mother's side.

 

Some of the Southern Han Chinese married the various Tai-Kadai, Miao Yao on the mother's side.

 

As long as the children carried a Chinese surname and with at least one Han parentage, he is still considered a Han Chinese. Usually, the kids follow the ethnicity of the father in intermarriages between different ethnic groups.


Edited by xng, 28 July 2013 - 03:56 AM.


#236 Modu Chanyu

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 03:59 AM

Tang dynasty = legit Chinese dynasty. The culture, official language, it was all there. The emperors never identified themselves as foreigners trying to conquer China. All ppl who disagree are sinophobic, saying how china was occupied by northern races since 600. Oh yeah, Song and Ming were chinese dynasties too. Forbidden city was not built by mongols. Any view opposing these truths are politically motivated lies used by koreans, mongolians,Japanese, and Turks.

 

I agree. We learn this in the US too.



#237 Modu Chanyu

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 04:01 AM

Neither did the general population cried out against the barbarian Qing/Yuan during the prime of Qing/Yuan.

And there are enough people who revolted against the foreign rule of Sui and Tang.

And Qing emperors was ruthless against Mongols.

So what.

 

Depends on what they revolted on.

 

And btw, Manchu emperors such as Kangxi and Qianlong ruled well in terms of China's economy. It held 80% of the world's GDP i believe. There is nothing to complain about during Mid-Qing rule.


Edited by Modu Chanyu, 28 July 2013 - 04:01 AM.


#238 Modu Chanyu

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 04:05 AM

Now, this is NOT to say that I agree with anyone or anything, but rather pointing out some flaws in logic.
Some food for thought.

How did you know the Emperors never consider them as non-Chinese? Did they consider themselves non-Xianbei? This is a very poor reason for any argument, especially if used in a historical sense. For example, how did you know Li Yuan and Yang Jian never thought conquest of China for Xianbei? Perhaps Li Yuan did? He did ask support from the Tujue, who are traditionally an enemy.

I don't think they think of themselves as an Emperor of China, not in the way modern people would. They think themselves as the true son of heaven, emperor of all people. In Book of Shui, Di ji 2, he justify his attack on all the other kingdoms by claiming '受命.' If he thought of himself as any king, the poor acts of his fellow kings is no business of his. But, if he thought of himself as emperor, in the traditional sense, then he is given the duty to correct wrongs. Thus the Sui Emperors, and Tang Emperors, are not Emperor of one people, but rather anyone who would submit to their justice and rule.

As for the average people consider the rulers 'Chinese,' we have no evidence of it. But, we do know the elites have very LITTLE regards to the Tang emperors. The famous families refused imperial marriages based on the fact that they were UNWORTHY, something the Tang emperors never forget. So, while that site is wildly inaccurate, some of your refutation is also inaccurate.


So if you can't determine Qin and Zhou due to you cannot determine what is Chinese then, then would not logic imply that they are neither Chinese nor non-Chinese?
Anyhow, Zhou and Qin are obviously a proper state, with head of government, justice and economy etc.



That is ONE THEORY.

 

We know that in CHinese culture, men were viewed as Gods. It was sexist back then.

 

Tang Dynasty was founded by a man whose father was Han and his mother was Xianbei. Its clear that Tang fought for Chinese interests. This debate of Tang is China or not is ridiculous and only taught my right wing japanese nationalists and Korean nationalists. If you say that you are Chinese why do bring yourself so low to these standards and question your own history?

 

Hell, even the Western nations accept that Tang was China and not once did it ever cross their minds.



#239 YummYakitori

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 10:18 AM

We know that in CHinese culture, men were viewed as Gods. It was sexist back then.
 
Tang Dynasty was founded by a man whose father was Han and his mother was Xianbei. Its clear that Tang fought for Chinese interests. This debate of Tang is China or not is ridiculous and only taught my right wing japanese nationalists and Korean nationalists. If you say that you are Chinese why do bring yourself so low to these standards and question your own history?
 
Hell, even the Western nations accept that Tang was China and not once did it ever cross their minds.


This "sexism" is actually part of Confucianism, women were seen as somewhat of a lower class and not as capable. This "sexist" culture later spread to Korea, as with Confucianism.

All court women were never allowed to leave the palace unless granted permission. Can you imagine being locked up in your house with all modern electronics removed and being unable to see the light of day and smell the fresh air outside? :P

The rulers of the Tang Dynasty were predominantly Han with partial Xianbei ancestry. Majority of it is still Han.
Буурэг дэрсэнд уурэглэсэн бужин туулай нь ч амгалан Булээн нууранд нь ганганалдсан хотон шувууд нь ч амгалан Буувэй санаа нь ивлэсэн Бусгуй сэптгэл нь ч амгалан хонхон дуутай бойтгийг нь Цэцэг унсэх нь энхрийхэн хöгöн горхины урсгалд нь Цэнгэг хараахай зуггуйхэн Хиртэшгуй ариухан дагшинд нь Монголын узэсгэлэн яруухан

#240 YummYakitori

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 10:26 AM

Depends on what they revolted on.
 
And btw, Manchu emperors such as Kangxi and Qianlong ruled well in terms of China's economy. It held 80% of the world's GDP i believe. There is nothing to complain about during Mid-Qing rule.


80% of the world's GDP was the Song Dynasty (宋朝) - one of the eras in China that had the economy of the world revolving around China.

During the Tang, they had a strong military but it was a mere 58%.

The Song eventually crashed because they were overly focused on being a "peaceful nation", arts, trade, language and culture. Their military grew so weak they were eventually invaded by the Mongols.

Qing Dynasty (清朝) actually leaves quite a bad impression on the Han Chinese population in general. They reversed time and forced the army to use primitive weapons such as spears and swords although gunpowder was already invented and used during the Ming Dynasty (明朝).

As China went backward, Europe found out about gunpowder from the trade with the Manchu Qing Empire, Europe spiralled into industrialisation and started growing really powerful - eventually using one of the "Chinese" inventions to conquer the world and even attack China itself (the irony).

Not to mention the Qing forced Han Chinese to wear Manchu clothing and had males tie up their hair into pigtails. Manchus were the main rulers and the royalty, Mongols were seen as on par whereas Han Chinese were seen as the low-class.

In the Jakun Gusa, or 8 banner system, there are Mongols, Manchus and Han Chinese in the banner. Han Chinese were to walk on foot whereas Mongols and Manchus were to ride horses. Admixture between Mongols and Manchus were common but less frequent amongst the Han Chinese and the other two.
Буурэг дэрсэнд уурэглэсэн бужин туулай нь ч амгалан Булээн нууранд нь ганганалдсан хотон шувууд нь ч амгалан Буувэй санаа нь ивлэсэн Бусгуй сэптгэл нь ч амгалан хонхон дуутай бойтгийг нь Цэцэг унсэх нь энхрийхэн хöгöн горхины урсгалд нь Цэнгэг хараахай зуггуйхэн Хиртэшгуй ариухан дагшинд нь Монголын узэсгэлэн яруухан




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