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Teo Chiu origin - or Teochew people


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#46 bloodmerchant

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 11:27 PM

er...are you replying at the wrong thread ? coz this thread is talking about Teochew people only...

he's going off tangents.
吳王夫差將伐齊,子胥曰:不可。夫齊之與吳也,習俗不同,言語不通,我得其地不能處,得其民不得使。夫吳之與越也,接土鄰境,壤交通屬,習俗同,言語通,我得其地能處之,得其民能使之。
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#47 Andy Lau

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 12:50 AM

no lol my point was that Henan are not really a good example of Northern Han to compare Teochew people with, since Henan people are a mixture of Northern and Southern Han. Henan is just right next to Sichuan and Hubei, and the Chinese there are short and have southern han looks, from what i have seen and met. Montreal has many mainlanders now and i can now see how people look from different provinces.




But the Teochew and Hakka people i have seen look more Southern Chinese than northern chinese from Beijing or Donbei, if you look at overseas chinese in singapore, Thailand and indonesia.. they look southern chinese and most of the chinese are of minnan origin.

Henan is said to be the birthplace of Chinese Civilization, therefore both Northern and Southern Han identity did exist since both can be found in Henan. It is possible that many of the Southern Han chinese that live south of the Yantze River originated from Southern Henan province and preserved the Southern han look, but of course as they settled into south of th yangtze they probably absorbed some other non-han groups.

In my opinion, most of the Bai-Yue that lived south of the Yangtze river mostly migrated to South-east Asia, Hainan and Taiwan. Which is why South-east Asia is still heavily forested.

Edited by Andy Lau, 17 December 2009 - 01:04 AM.


#48 chyang

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:48 AM

New to this forum.  Interested because my maternal grandfather is from TeoChew who immigrated to Taiwan with the KMT government in 1949.   I am Taiwanese with TeoChew blood.

 

Clarify a few things from my own research.  

 

1.  TeoChew people and language Min Nan (Southern Min) people.   Same people as Southern Hokkien, Taiwanese, Hainanese.  (many modern Singaporeans, and some isolated parts of Canton (NanSha).  They are mutually intelligible except for Hainanese.   Some people refer to these folks collectively as  the Hoklo people - or the people of Hokkien. 

 

2.  Most current Southern Hokkien cities were established in Sui-Tang dynasties (586-907AD) possibly due to imperial land grants after successful military campaigns.  Later many of those cities became settlements and refuges for the Tang loyalists after they were driven South after being defeated.  Teochew is most likely founded in the same period of time.

 

3.  Min-nan Hua, the languages of the Southern Min,  is classified as one of middle Chinese, the language most closely associated with Sui-Tang imperial court language.

 

4.  Teochew people migrated to northern Canton via Hokkien settlement, so likely part of the Tang retreat into the South China or settlement from earlier traders. 

 

5.  Canton was later settled by the Yue people after during and at the end of Song Dynasty (960-1279) when they themselves were driven South after being defeated.    The (Yue-Yu) Cantonese language is most closely associated with the imperial court language of the Song Dynasty. 

 

6.  Hakka people are later immigrants from the North who settled in both Fujian and Canton region. There were many known historical conflicts with the local Yue and Min-nan people.  But largely Hakka, Yue, and Min-nan people lived in peace after those initial conflicts.  The Hakka maintain its own language and culture despite existing in pockets within Fujian and Canton.    Many Hakka immigrated to Taiwan with the KMT government fell to the CCP.     The  Hakka played huge role in the modern Chinese revolution.    Founder of modern China, Dr. Sun-Yat Sen was Hakka. 

 

7. As for the genetic composition of modern Min-nan, Yue, and Hakka people.  It is likely Han mixed with natives.   My personal genetic composition has a paternal haplogroup of O3a3c1* ad maternal haplogroup of F3a.   O3a3c1* is associated with rapid expansion of "Han Culture" over the past 3000 years, which expanded out from the northern China in every direction.   Today O3a3c1* marker is found in 10-20% of all "Han Chinese" population. (The haplogroup O3 is found in > 50% of all Asian men.  It is extremely dominant.)  So it is undeniable my paternal ancestors came from Northern China even though that I am considered a native Taiwanese.   While maternal haplogroup F3a started from Thailand and Dai people of Yunnan province migrated along the South China into Taiwan 5-6 thousands years ago. (The F maternal DNA is dominant in Thai, Laos, and Vietnam).   My maternal ancestor could be classified as Baiyue or some other natives (I am not so clear about this).   

 

Many of our paternal ancestors came from Northern China, conquered Hokkien/Canton through warfare (or trade), and assimilated the and intermixed with natives.  It is likely we are the result today.



#49 mrclub

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 03:48 AM

1.  TeoChew people and language Min Nan (Southern Min) people.   Same people as Southern Hokkien, Taiwanese, Hainanese.  (many modern Singaporeans, and some isolated parts of Canton (NanSha).  They are mutually intelligible except for Hainanese.   Some people refer to these folks collectively as  the Hoklo people - or the people of Hokkien.

 

I won't say we are the same people unless you say we are all Han Chinese. Besides, this term "Hoklo people", I thought is being used by other dialect groups to label Minnan ?

 

2.  Most current Southern Hokkien cities were established in Sui-Tang dynasties (586-907AD) possibly due to imperial land grants after successful military campaigns.  Later many of those cities became settlements and refuges for the Tang loyalists after they were driven South after being defeated.  Teochew is most likely founded in the same period of time.

 

衣冠南渡,八姓入闽

 

Well anyway, those current Minnan cities existed before Sui-Tang dynasties, just that they got their current name from that period of time only.

 

They came during the Jin Dynasty.

 

3.  Min-nan Hua, the languages of the Southern Min,  is classified as one of middle Chinese, the language most closely associated with Sui-Tang imperial court language.

 

True, seems to be derived from the imperial court language. But then Hokkien itself is not the imperial court language.

 

4.  Teochew people migrated to northern Canton via Hokkien settlement, so likely part of the Tang retreat into the South China or settlement from earlier traders.

 

???

 

5.  Canton was later settled by the Yue people after during and at the end of Song Dynasty (960-1279) when they themselves were driven South after being defeated.    The (Yue-Yu) Cantonese language is most closely associated with the imperial court language of the Song Dynasty.

 

This is pretty complex and they are not really driven south at the end of Song Dynasty. They seem to be including of people who have been sinicized.

 

http://en.wikipedia...._people#History

 

6.  Hakka people are later immigrants from the North who settled in both Fujian and Canton region. There were many known historical conflicts with the local Yue and Min-nan people.  But largely Hakka, Yue, and Min-nan people lived in peace after those initial conflicts.  The Hakka maintain its own language and culture despite existing in pockets within Fujian and Canton.    Many Hakka immigrated to Taiwan with the KMT government fell to the CCP.     The  Hakka played huge role in the modern Chinese revolution.    Founder of modern China, Dr. Sun-Yat Sen was Hakka.

 

Hakka people can be found in many places in China -- Guangdong, Guangxi, Jiangxi, Sichuan, Hunan and Fujian. I am not sure if the cultures and customs are the same, but the Hakka dialect spoken in each of these places pretty much differs. It looks like multiple migration of Hakka people, not necessary later immigrants from the north...

 

Is Sun Yat Sen a Hakka or Cantonese, is still a debate.

 

Many of our paternal ancestors came from Northern China, conquered Hokkien/Canton through warfare (or trade), and assimilated the and intermixed with natives.  It is likely we are the result today.

 

I doubt it is because of conquest, though. It is more like Han Chinese moving southwards to escape the chaos in the north. It is the natives who assimilated and intermixed with Han Chinese.


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#50 mohistManiac

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 07:36 AM

Your paternal ancestors which you think came from northern China were just derivative of those that came from southern China.  Think about it, which way were the walls moving during the Warring States period? And those that have O3 either from north or south don't necessarily identify with Han Chinese.  For example Koreans have a lot of O3.  I guess they all come from the Han expansion or something?  Bizarre.  Also don't neglect things like this.  Northeast India after all has the highest concentration of O3.  I guess that is from Han expansion as well?  You might think so.

 

40m2.jpg


Edited by mohistManiac, 14 July 2013 - 07:41 AM.

I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.

#51 mrclub

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:47 PM

Teochew people are related to Qin/Zhao ?

Any sources ? I would like to read them up
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#52 YummYakitori

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:03 AM

Teochu is known as "jews of china"
 
And irony is they are related to qin/zhao and thus hata of japan.
And lots evidence that hata have jewish blood.


Teochews (潮州漢族) are only known as "Jews of China" simply because we are very good with money and businesses (like the Jews), example; the richest Chinese (Teochew) man - Li Ka-shing (李嘉誠), and the creator of QQ, the Chinese version of Windows Live Messenger, is also Teochew. Not because of our bloodline, that we are jews.

I still don't know who the hell are the hata, you keep ranting about "hata people", "jews" and "jomon people" but nobody even understands what the hell are you talking about.

All Han Chinese (漢族) are related to the Qin/Zhao people, regardless of dialect group.
Буурэг дэрсэнд уурэглэсэн бужин туулай нь ч амгалан Булээн нууранд нь ганганалдсан хотон шувууд нь ч амгалан Буувэй санаа нь ивлэсэн Бусгуй сэптгэл нь ч амгалан хонхон дуутай бойтгийг нь Цэцэг унсэх нь энхрийхэн хöгöн горхины урсгалд нь Цэнгэг хараахай зуггуйхэн Хиртэшгуй ариухан дагшинд нь Монголын узэсгэлэн яруухан

#53 xng

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 11:18 AM

 

 

3.  Min-nan Hua, the languages of the Southern Min,  is classified as one of middle Chinese, the language most closely associated with Sui-Tang imperial court language.

 

 

 

 

It is closely associated with Old Chinese and NOT Middle Chinese. Old Chinese meaning the northern language spoken during Han and Jin dynasties.

 

Cantonese and Hakka are more closely associated with Middle Chinese.



#54 mrclub

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:01 AM

Hmm...Where is the source about Teochew people having Jewish blood ? Mind sharing the sources ? :)


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#55 guest_type89951

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 09:24 PM

Teochew are Han Chinese subgroup. I have met darkest Teochew person to the lightest, a northern Teochew friend .She has a squared jawline, resemble those of Northern China and Han chinese. Teochew are originally Northern Chinese that mixed with native southern Chinese.

 

edit: My friend is Teochew and he has thick eyebrows.


Edited by guest_type89951, 03 June 2014 - 06:49 PM.


#56 Shiang

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:29 AM

Your paternal ancestors which you think came from northern China were just derivative of those that came from southern China.  Think about it, which way were the walls moving during the Warring States period? And those that have O3 either from north or south don't necessarily identify with Han Chinese.  For example Koreans have a lot of O3.  I guess they all come from the Han expansion or something?  Bizarre.  Also don't neglect things like this.  Northeast India after all has the highest concentration of O3.  I guess that is from Han expansion as well?  You might think so.
 
40m2.jpg


Northeast Indian and Korean O3 is a DIFFERENT SUBCLADE than Han O3 subclades. Northern and Southern Han have the same specific O3 subclades. Southern Han O3-M122 subclade originated with Northern Han.

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false




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