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"Filial piety" vs "Loyalty to state"


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#1 General_Zhaoyun

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 09:22 PM

Confucianism tends to favor 'filial piety' as the most important virtue in a family, followed by "Loyalty to state", because it was believed that having such a basic value system as "Filial piety" in a family will ensure good social order.

There had been sayings that "filial piety" and "loyalty to a state" cannot co-exist at the same time. If you're forced to choose either of the following, which would you choose?

Which do you think is more important to you?
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"夫君子之行:靜以修身,儉以養德;非淡泊無以明志,非寧靜無以致遠。" - 諸葛亮

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#2 Pattie

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 09:51 PM

Which do you think is more important to you?


Working on the assumption that my parents are still alive... ;) I'm gonna have to go with them.

The feeling of debt owed my parents FAR outweighs the feelings of being buggered by my government.
I do love my country, and I know it has flaws, but I freely admit I love my parents more.
Cheers,
 

Pattie


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#3 Master Ghost Valley

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 10:52 PM

Confucianism tends to favor 'filial piety' as the most important virtue in a family, followed by "Loyalty to state", because it was believed that having such a basic value system as "Filial piety" in a family will ensure good social order.

There had been sayings that "filial piety" and "loyalty to a state" cannot co-exist at the same time. If you're forced to choose either of the following, which would you choose?

Which do you think is more important to you?


If I were alive at the time, I would do my best to conceal my choice from All Under Heaven, but I would choose and teach my family to choose, ( perhaps due to my own heritage ): family, family, family, I suspect you would term this "Filial piety" over good social order,

I am making the assumption that the act that spawned this question has to do with an incident between my family member and the authority of the state that in their view is detrimental to good social order.

Anyway General_Zhaoyun, this is a fertile question, one that has sparked major debates in most every society. Perhaps there may be, and should be, some special circumstances where there are exceptions to which ever position one takes .

Edited by Master Ghost Valley, 03 October 2007 - 05:41 PM.

Master Ghost Valley:

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Han Fei Tzu
Sun Tzu
Niccolo Machiavelli

#4 Master Ghost Valley

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 10:58 PM

Working on the assumption that my parents are still alive... ;) I'm gonna have to go with them.

The feeling of debt owed my parents FAR outweighs the feelings of being buggered by my government.
I do love my country, and I know it has flaws, but I freely admit I love my parents more.


Atta go Pattie, I am with you on this one.
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Sun Tzu
Niccolo Machiavelli

#5 Bao Pu

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 04:43 PM

It would really depend on the situation. My country doesn't ask much of me. Neither do my parents, for that matter. It is difficult for me to imagine a case where I would have to choose between them.
May you enjoy good health, harmony and happiness.
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#6 polar_zen

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 05:50 PM

I think most people would naturally choose filial piety unless perhaps you're a politician or something.
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley

#7 tung2sai

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Posted 04 October 2007 - 12:56 AM

I think most people would naturally choose filial piety unless perhaps you're a politician or something.



That's true. Unless you were some type of leader with important things to do, it's going to be mostly filial piety, at least loyalty to the family.

#8 LYY

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Posted 04 October 2007 - 03:55 AM

Confucianism tends to favor 'filial piety' as the most important virtue in a family, followed by "Loyalty to state", because it was believed that having such a basic value system as "Filial piety" in a family will ensure good social order.

There had been sayings that "filial piety" and "loyalty to a state" cannot co-exist at the same time.
If you're forced to choose either of the following, which would you choose?

Which do you think is more important to you?


Filial piety is a good way to ensure social order and buries the call of rebellion against the ruler within a mild heart.

Both co-exist well in some way, sometimes.

#9 Dagvadorj

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Posted 04 October 2007 - 04:00 AM

Confucianism tends to favor 'filial piety' as the most important virtue in a family, followed by "Loyalty to state", because it was believed that having such a basic value system as "Filial piety" in a family will ensure good social order.

There had been sayings that "filial piety" and "loyalty to a state" cannot co-exist at the same time. If you're forced to choose either of the following, which would you choose?

Which do you think is more important to you?


I think they surely can co-exist. I guess Dafu said "filial piety" in the family and the next relation is between you and the minister, which the the form you support your country. But one must remember that the sayings are usually for so-called "superior man" and "prince".

As the base of the concept, "filial piety" must come first of course.

#10 polar_zen

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Posted 05 October 2007 - 10:50 PM

For example if your family is jailed by the state, chances are you'd feel anger towards the government,
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley

#11 Shaolin

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Posted 05 October 2007 - 11:22 PM

Confucianism tends to favor 'filial piety' as the most important virtue in a family, followed by "Loyalty to state", because it was believed that having such a basic value system as "Filial piety" in a family will ensure good social order.

There had been sayings that "filial piety" and "loyalty to a state" cannot co-exist at the same time. If you're forced to choose either of the following, which would you choose?

Which do you think is more important to you?


It all depends on which side has a greater goodness....

Personally I will choose "Filial Piety"..........because it is still the basic benchmark goodness in one's character............

However for a bigger picture, I will choose " Loyalty to a State" in which one's personal character can be sacrifice for greater good for the state and others.......
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#12 Master Ghost Valley

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 02:59 PM

[quote name='Tian Shi' post='4907717' date='Oct 6 2007, 04:54 PM']such sayings go counter to what confucianism is about. Not only these two concepts are supposed to coexsist but they are mutual prerequisits.

In a practical conflict situation the rule is hinted at as:


Hi Tian Shi

Is it possible for you to post an English translation.

Edited by Master Ghost Valley, 07 October 2007 - 03:04 PM.

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Han Fei Tzu
Sun Tzu
Niccolo Machiavelli

#13 fsgien

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 05:01 PM

Confucianism tends to favor 'filial piety' as the most important virtue in a family, followed by "Loyalty to state", because it was believed that having such a basic value system as "Filial piety" in a family will ensure good social order.

There had been sayings that "filial piety" and "loyalty to a state" cannot co-exist at the same time. If you're forced to choose either of the following, which would you choose?

Which do you think is more important to you?



Both co-exist.
The Great Learning places emphasis of a goof family life that leads to a good state.
Filial Piety in the C21 is not he same as 2000 years ago .

#14 Chris Weimer

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 05:59 PM

In a sense, the "state" can be seen as a parent to the family. Thus child -> father -> state.
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#15 Master Ghost Valley

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 09:32 PM

Confucianism tends to favor 'filial piety' as the most important virtue in a family, followed by "Loyalty to state", because it was believed that having such a basic value system as "Filial piety" in a family will ensure good social order.

There had been sayings that "filial piety" and "loyalty to a state" cannot co-exist at the same time. If you're forced to choose either of the following, which would you choose?

Which do you think is more important to you?


Greetings:
Imagine a small village during the Warring States Period. The police had for three minutes captured a fugitive army deserter, before he made a getaway. They suspected he was related to one of the more prosperous village families. So the chief said to the newest policeman. “it is your fault the deserter got away”
“So get out there, take another rookie with you and question these people and remember, the State position is: "Filial piety" and "loyalty to a state" cannot co-exist at the same time.

Ask them: “ Are you or have you given this deserter aid or assistance? If you are, you are placing "filial piety" ahead of "Loyalty to state"?

“Get a yes or no answers or ……do not bother to come back, we will be coming to arrest you.”

Now we return from the Warring States to CHF and here is some more information:

1. The fact is, the family knows it is that no good son in law (all gods curse him) who at the very moment with family assistance has a change of clothing, a bag of escape money reluctantly given against his better judgment by the father (due to a torrent tears from his wife and elder daughter) and in spite of the protest of the younger daughter, is hiding in the attic!
This is the very suitor the parents ordered the eldest daughter not to marry.

2 Further the young new policeman just happens to be the young man the family wanted and had arranged for the elder daughter to marry. The young man never married and still has strong feelings for the errant daughter.
The family liked him because he was so sincere and was noted for never have been known to tell a lie. The nice young man, also warned the family before the marriage, that the man she was going to marry had a very bad reputation.

3. The family and the other policeman with him noted that during the questioning the young policeman for some reason got sick and had to be helped out into the yard where he emptied his lunch.

4. The family is split on the question: will the young policeman tell the chief or not?

Now CHF members, select, if you will, an answer for the family from the following :

a. We know nothing of the whereabouts of this criminal and if we find anything, we will call you.
or
b. We are so lucky you have arrived because he is up in the attic now. He has terrified us and has taken the savings we had put aside for our old age.

In addition explain to the police ….. why a yes or no is not required because "filial piety" and "loyalty to a state" can co-exist at the same time if you feel this is the case.

And what would you advise the unfortunate young policeman to do?
Master Ghost Valley:

of counsel:

Kuei Ku-Tzu
Han Fei Tzu
Sun Tzu
Niccolo Machiavelli




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