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chinese view of pre spanish philippine history


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#1 cris

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 01:36 PM

i been searching for long time what was philippines before the spanish came but the result is always negative the spanish always wrote the filipinos before they came where savages with no level of civilization. aside from some facts that they also wrote that when they first discover manila as with two big towns between a big river one which was fortified with timber and clay walls with small bronze canons called lantaka and the other town name tondo there was no other mention of what level of civilization philippines before they came.

i wonder if in chinese view of pre spanish philippine history there is something. is its well a established fact that the chinese have traded with the filipinos before ever spain have come to the philippines. i hope our chinese members here who have some information about philippines before the spanish came could share it with us

#2 polar_zen

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 03:01 PM

Filipinos certainly weren't savages. We may not have had much technology, but we had structured societies centered around the Barangay.



This is the ancient Filipino alphabet used before the Spaniards. It is called baybayin.





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This was a revolutionary Filipino flag flown by the Katipunan, a nationalist organization headed by Andres Bonifacio.

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This is an image of a Tagalog couple drawn sometime during the Spanish arrival. As you can see, Filipinos weren't just running around with grass skirts like many people think.

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As for Chinese, I know at some point Koxinga attempted to invade and capture the Philippines from Spain in its early days of colonization, but he either died before he put his plans into action, or his fleet was destroyed before...I can't remember which.

Edited by polar_zen, 26 November 2007 - 04:33 PM.

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#3 tung2sai

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 05:54 PM

I read about that statement on Koxinga wanting the philippines somewhere, but I think it's just a rumor although there might have some truth behind it.
The rumor was something like the Spaniards were already a little worry with the local Chinese population in the Philipines, they also had some trouble with many Pirates who happen to be Chinese.
When news reach that place that the Dutch were ousted from Formosa, there was gossip going around the Islands that Koxinga was ready to invade that colony too with support from the local Chinese. Then there was massacres of some of the Chinese population there. Koxinga heard about it and it trouble him so much until his death at an apparently young age.

I still think it's just a rumor though with small elements of truth, and I also read where most likely he died from some disease in Formosa and with a lot of stress coming from these "rumors" and family problems.

I got some of the info from this site and others.

http://www.zamboanga...ory_Koxinga.htm

Edited by tung2sai, 26 November 2007 - 05:57 PM.


#4 Liang Jieming

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 12:08 AM

i been searching for long time what was philippines before the spanish came but the result is always negative the spanish always wrote the filipinos before they came where savages with no level of civilization.

This is not unusual.

pre-European/British Indian history is scant.
pre-Stamford Raffles Singapore history is non-existent
pre-British Australian history is pitiful
pre-colonial North American history is disjointedly laughable
etc.

#5 General_Zhaoyun

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 02:45 AM

i been searching for long time what was philippines before the spanish came but the result is always negative the spanish always wrote the filipinos before they came where savages with no level of civilization. aside from some facts that they also wrote that when they first discover manila as with two big towns between a big river one which was fortified with timber and clay walls with small bronze canons called lantaka and the other town name tondo there was no other mention of what level of civilization philippines before they came.

i wonder if in chinese view of pre spanish philippine history there is something. is its well a established fact that the chinese have traded with the filipinos before ever spain have come to the philippines. i hope our chinese members here who have some information about philippines before the spanish came could share it with us


The Philippines were historically called "Lu Song 吕宋" by the chinese (which is more notably known as Luzon island today), as recorded in history book. Lu Song was also the name Ming dynasty called Philippine during the 14th century.

Ever since Tang period (700 AD), there were already maritime trade between China and Philippine. But the expansion of trade were predominantly during Song and Yuan period. Minor Chinese migration to the Philippine already began during the Song period, but more chinese migration began during 15th and 16th century.

From 1372 AD till 1410 AD, there was 3 times dispatch of envoy from Philippine to China and in 1405, there was a dispatchment of chinese envoy to Philippine.

The earliest record of the Philippines in chinese sources dated from the Song dynasty Geography Book "Zhufanzhi 《诸蕃志》" (Records of various 'foreign barbarians') [note: all foreign nations outside China were often known as 'uncivilized barbarians' (fan) in ancient times]. This book was written and completed around AD1225 by Zhao Rushi 赵汝适 . It was a compilation and records of the geographical information about various foreign nation outside China from East Asia (Japan, Korea), South East Asia, Middle East, North and East Africa (including Somalia), Mediterranean.

Some historians predicted that China had already got to know Philippine as early as 300 AD. Archaeological discovery of Chinese porcelains in Philippine dated from Song/Ming suggested a high volume of trade going on at that time.
Posted ImagePosted Image

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#6 cris

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 11:29 AM

The earliest record of the Philippines in chinese sources dated from the Song dynasty Geography Book "Zhufanzhi 《诸蕃志》" (Records of various 'foreign barbarians') [note: all foreign nations outside China were often known as 'uncivilized barbarians' (fan) in ancient times]. This book was written and completed around AD1225 by Zhao Rushi 赵汝适 . It was a compilation and records of the geographical information about various foreign nation outside China from East Asia (Japan, Korea), South East Asia, Middle East, North and East Africa (including Somalia), Mediterranean.


thanks general zhaoyun if only i can read chinese i will certainly open those books if i have access on those i believe in old chinese records there are more information about the philippines and also about asia firstly if im correct the chinese are the first to use papers

Edited by cris, 27 November 2007 - 11:32 AM.


#7 cris

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 11:47 AM

I read about that statement on Koxinga wanting the philippines somewhere, but I think it's just a rumor although there might have some truth behind it.
The rumor was something like the Spaniards were already a little worry with the local Chinese population in the Philipines, they also had some trouble with many Pirates who happen to be Chinese.
When news reach that place that the Dutch were ousted from Formosa, there was gossip going around the Islands that Koxinga was ready to invade that colony too with support from the local Chinese. Then there was massacres of some of the Chinese population there. Koxinga heard about it and it trouble him so much until his death at an apparently young age.


what i heard more is about Limahong during my history in my early schoolyears but i did read through internet that he came to manila in the early days of spanish occupation with more than 100 ships and more than 3000 men, my guess the chinese in manila that time where worried about the spanish thats why Limahong came. About the killings, filipnos will never knows how many filipinos where killed during the early days of spanish colonizations manila did resist first but was subdued by the combine force of spanish and the bisayan locals. so when the spanish where finish with the tagalogs(locals in manila) maybe they turn on to the chinese.

#8 polar_zen

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 06:24 PM

What is the modern Chinese word for the Philippines?
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley

#9 General_Zhaoyun

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 09:52 PM

What is the modern Chinese word for the Philippines?


The modern chinese word for the Philippines is "Fei Lu Bin 菲律宾", which is a direct transliteration of the "Philippines" (named after King Philip II of Spain).
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One should seek serenity to cultivate the body, thriftiness to cultivate the morals. If you are not simple and frugal, your ambition will not sparkle. If you are not calm and cool, you will not reach far. - Zhugeliang

#10 tung2sai

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 10:49 PM

what i heard more is about Limahong during my history in my early schoolyears but i did read through internet that he came to manila in the early days of spanish occupation with more than 100 ships and more than 3000 men, my guess the chinese in manila that time where worried about the spanish thats why Limahong came. About the killings, filipnos will never knows how many filipinos where killed during the early days of spanish colonizations manila did resist first but was subdued by the combine force of spanish and the bisayan locals. so when the spanish where finish with the tagalogs(locals in manila) maybe they turn on to the chinese.



I looked into the Limahong history, and his life seems quite interesting. Been able to put up such a fight against the Spaniards, I think the Big "what if" had he actually succeded in establishing and maintain a small Chinese Kingdom in the Philipines, the whole archipelago would be so different.

In regards to the topic, it appears that the Chinese should have quite a lot of knowledge regarding the Philipines before the Spanish came. I'm just guessing that their main view wouldn't have been too different from other places where there were Chinese settlements around the Southeast Asian Islands. I mean, there was already trading relations between the Chinese and natives throughout that region (I don't know much about the Philipines) before the Admiral Zheng He made voyages there.

This is all speculation though.

Edited by tung2sai, 27 November 2007 - 10:50 PM.


#11 kudu

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 11:02 AM

I knew a Phlippino guy before, his surname is BINZON or BINSON. He said his ancestor came from China and was a king's descendant. According to what he said, BINZON , SINZON and the other --ZONs all came from the same ancestor. It's interesting but I cannot find out any information from web.

#12 General_Zhaoyun

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 03:34 AM

I knew a Phlippino guy before, his surname is BINZON or BINSON. He said his ancestor came from China and was a king's descendant. According to what he said, BINZON , SINZON and the other --ZONs all came from the same ancestor. It's interesting but I cannot find out any information from web.


Binzon, Sinzon doesn't sound like chinese.

But I think the "Zon" corresponds to the "zon" (or Song 宋) of Luzon (Lu Song 吕宋 to be more proper) , which suggested that it could be of chinese origin, as the name "Luzon" (Lu Song) was what the chinese called Philippine in ancient times. I think, more reading of Song history and its trade with philippine might reveal more information about this connection with "Song" or "Zon".
Posted ImagePosted Image

"夫君子之行:靜以修身,儉以養德;非淡泊無以明志,非寧靜無以致遠。" - 諸葛亮

One should seek serenity to cultivate the body, thriftiness to cultivate the morals. If you are not simple and frugal, your ambition will not sparkle. If you are not calm and cool, you will not reach far. - Zhugeliang

#13 rozh

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 11:58 AM

Binzon, Sinzon doesn't sound like chinese.

But I think the "Zon" corresponds to the "zon" (or Song 宋) of Luzon (Lu Song 吕宋 to be more proper) , which suggested that it could be of chinese origin, as the name "Luzon" (Lu Song) was what the chinese called Philippine in ancient times. I think, more reading of Song history and its trade with philippine might reveal more information about this connection with "Song" or "Zon".



Look at the wiki entry about the Luzon Empire.

It was said that the remaining troops and royal family of the Song Dynasty of China, after their imperial regime was conquered by the Mongols, managed to escape and finally arrived the island and reestablished their empire as the Luzon empire. ''Luzon" literally means ''lesser Song (zon)", perhaps initially implying that the Song emperor would soon recapture the mainland. However, after years of development, I suspect that this originally Chinese-established state could have undergone profound localization, where their ties with the Song Dynasty could have nearly been forgotten. Please note that, only a small number of Song troops were able to escape, and in the official history written by the Mongolian Yuan Dynasty (probably had a substantial propaganda element) this fleet had in fact, been declared perished. These armed men probably were not educated, the royal family members were mostly children and women, and it would not be surprising if they didnt bring much of Song's culture and technology to the Luzon state.

Edited by rozh, 27 April 2008 - 12:02 PM.


#14 mariusj

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 08:17 PM

Look at the wiki entry about the Luzon Empire.

It was said that the remaining troops and royal family of the Song Dynasty of China, after their imperial regime was conquered by the Mongols, managed to escape and finally arrived the island and reestablished their empire as the Luzon empire. ''Luzon" literally means ''lesser Song (zon)", perhaps initially implying that the Song emperor would soon recapture the mainland. However, after years of development, I suspect that this originally Chinese-established state could have undergone profound localization, where their ties with the Song Dynasty could have nearly been forgotten. Please note that, only a small number of Song troops were able to escape, and in the official history written by the Mongolian Yuan Dynasty (probably had a substantial propaganda element) this fleet had in fact, been declared perished. These armed men probably were not educated, the royal family members were mostly children and women, and it would not be surprising if they didnt bring much of Song's culture and technology to the Luzon state.


No Chinese mother, especially Empresses of Song, would ever let their children forget their origin, and no Chinese would forget what they are, its simply a culture thing to wish to return home even in death. It is unlikely that these man simply forgot their were imperials. At the same time, the court, or whatever survive the on slaughter of Mongols, were on these ships. These were just fleets of fighting man, but the fleet is the Celestial Throne as long as the Emperor lives and rules.

I don't buy that theory.




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