Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Zhao Yun at Changban


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 allie

allie

    Grand Mentor (Taishi 太师)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 464 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 07 February 2008 - 06:22 AM

He fought through Cao Cao thousand of soliders at Changban and escaped with Liu Bei son.

Is this true or a make up story from SGYY?

If it is true, I really doubt the abilities of Cao Cao army to let 1 guy escape from the thousands of soliders at changban and he did it when he was carrying a baby in his arms

#2 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 07 February 2008 - 10:18 AM

His biography in the Sanguo Zhi does not mention him fighting anyone at Changban. It says he went back to find Lady Gan and Liu Shan, and escorted both of them to safety, carrying Liu Shan in his arms. Lady Mi was not involved in the incident; in fact, she may already have been captured by Cao Cao in 199.

As to how he did it when Cao Cao had 5,000 cavalry in the area, we don't really know. Perhaps he had to fight, perhaps he just sneaked in and out during the confusion - after all, at Changban there were more than 100,000 followers of Liu Bei and civilians from the Xiangyang area fleeing in all directions and many (including Xu Shu's mother) being captured by Cao Cao's troops.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#3 Jacob

Jacob

    Prefect (Taishou 太守)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 27 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms

Posted 10 February 2008 - 01:26 AM

I think Zhao Yun did not need to fight becauce Zhang Fei kept most of the enemy across from the river.

#4 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 10 February 2008 - 02:51 PM

You raise an interesting point. We normally assume that Zhao Yun was on the 'wrong side' of the bridge, i.e. the side where Cao Cao's men were. However, the "Biography of Zhao Yun" (《云別傳》, which is quoted in Pei Songzhi's commentary) only mentions Zhao Yun heading back north to find Lady Gan and Liu Shan. It does not mention that he had to cross the bridge which Zhang Fei was holding. It could be that Liu Bei was only separated from Lady Gan after they crossed the bridge.

The Sanguo Zhi itself does not state whether Zhao Yun had to turn back to find Lady Gan and Liu Shan. It only says Liu Bei "abandoned his wife and children" and fled south, while Zhao Yun held Liu Shan in his arms and escorted Lady Gan to safety. It could be that the "Biography of Zhao Yun" invented the story of Zhao Yun turning back (leading some to assume he was going to defect) in order to highlight his loyalty and Liu Bei's trust in him.

BTW, I have mentioned this somewhere but should also raise it here. Liu Bei had two daughters whom he also abandoned during his defeat at Changban. They were captured by Cao Cao's general Cao Chun (younger brother of Cao Ren), and probably were never reunited with their father. Their mother was probably Lady Gan. You can check this up in Cao Chun's biography in Chapter 9 of SGZ.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#5 Jacob

Jacob

    Prefect (Taishou 太守)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 27 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms

Posted 10 February 2008 - 08:56 PM

I agree. If Zhao Yun was not at the south of the river, how could he cross the river. The bridge was broken before Cao Cao's troops arrive.

#6 sima old bandit

sima old bandit

    Grand Guardian (Taibao 太保)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 280 posts

Posted 12 February 2008 - 11:32 AM

He may or may not have fought anyone. When Liu Bang abandoned his sons i think his bodyguard later retreived them from the same spot and there was no mention of any fighting. However, i think it is worthy of note that he did retrieve them given the chaos.

Edited by sima old bandit, 12 February 2008 - 11:33 AM.


#7 Wei Lung

Wei Lung

    Commissioner (Shi Chijie 使持节)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 79 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 13 March 2008 - 02:48 AM

He may or may not have fought anyone. When Liu Bang abandoned his sons i think his bodyguard later retreived them from the same spot and there was no mention of any fighting. However, i think it is worthy of note that he did retrieve them given the chaos.

Liu Bang was long dead by this time, i think you mean Liu Bei.

#8 popcorn

popcorn

    Imperial Inspector (Jianyushi 监御使)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 166 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Singapore
  • Interests:I love three kingdoms and dragon gate inn the most.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    -

Posted 15 March 2008 - 08:06 AM

I also do not think that Zhao Yun fought anyone...he may have just escort Liu Bei's son back...I also do not think Liu bei did throw Liu Shan when Zhao Yun return.
KY

#9 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 15 March 2008 - 02:02 PM

I also do not think Liu bei did throw Liu Shan when Zhao Yun return.


That is clearly a fictional incident. It never appears in the Sanguo Zhi or other historical sources.

Too bad the Ming novel did not depict the incident actually recorded in the Zhao Yun Biezhuan (which is quoted in the Pei Songzhi annotation to Zhao's SGZ biography): One of Liu Bei's men tells him that Zhao Yun has gone north to defect to Cao Cao, and Liu Bei angrily uses a hand-halberd (手戟, a one-handed version of the ji halberd that was meant for throwing and close-quarter fighting) to slash (撾) the guy, saying "Zhao Yun would not abandon me!" Fortunately Zhao Yun soon returns (presumably with Lady Gan and Liu Shan), before Liu Bei kills anyone else.

Of course, such a scene would not fit with the novel's meek and gentle image of Liu Bei.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#10 sima old bandit

sima old bandit

    Grand Guardian (Taibao 太保)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 280 posts

Posted 26 March 2008 - 01:14 AM

Liu Bang was long dead by this time, i think you mean Liu Bei.


I was using it as an example.

#11 Denver

Denver

    County Magistrate (Xianling 县令)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 7 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:China
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chit Chat Only
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    basketball

Posted 27 March 2008 - 12:13 AM

at that time cao cao's army could kill zhao yun of course.
but cao cao says:" 此乃虎将也,吾当生擒之“. cao cao want zhao yun to be a general of Wei so he don't want kill zhao yun.

#12 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 27 March 2008 - 03:08 PM

but cao cao says:" 此乃虎将也,吾当生擒之“. cao cao want zhao yun to be a general of Wei so he don't want kill zhao yun.


That's only from the novel. There is no historical record that Cao Cao even noticed Zhao Yun at Changban.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#13 Ricky

Ricky

    Prefect (Taishou 太守)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 20 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:US, California
  • Interests:The three kingdoms.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three kingdoms

Posted 04 April 2008 - 11:57 PM

That's only from the novel. There is no historical record that Cao Cao even noticed Zhao Yun at Changban.

Hard to believe there is no records for this. Seeing as how he didn't fight the men of Cao Cao, but instead he confused them with some of his own in a surprise. And did his own business after words and high-tailed it out of there.

Edited by Ricky, 04 April 2008 - 11:58 PM.

Worry not that no one knows of you, seek to be worth knowing. - Confucius

#14 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 05 April 2008 - 12:36 AM

Seeing as how he didn't fight the men of Cao Cao, but instead he confused them with some of his own in a surprise. And did his own business after words and high-tailed it out of there.


Were you referring to Zhao Yun or Zhang Fei?
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#15 Elitemsh

Elitemsh

    Citizen (Shumin 庶民)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 4 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Birmingham, England
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms

Posted 13 April 2008 - 08:16 AM

The Sanguo Zhi itself does not state whether Zhao Yun had to turn back to find Lady Gan and Liu Shan. It only says Liu Bei "abandoned his wife and children" and fled south, while Zhao Yun held Liu Shan in his arms and escorted Lady Gan to safety. It could be that the "Biography of Zhao Yun" invented the story of Zhao Yun turning back (leading some to assume he was going to defect) in order to highlight his loyalty and Liu Bei's trust in him.

BTW, I have mentioned this somewhere but should also raise it here. Liu Bei had two daughters whom he also abandoned during his defeat at Changban. They were captured by Cao Cao's general Cao Chun (younger brother of Cao Ren), and probably were never reunited with their father. Their mother was probably Lady Gan. You can check this up in Cao Chun's biography in Chapter 9 of SGZ.


To truly assess Zhao Yun's feat at Changban we need to look at some other SGZ bios which give important background information on the conflict. Some of this info you already know and may not seem relevant but bear with me. From looking at Liu Bei's SGZ bio, we know that initially Liu Bei was travelling with the civilians and hence covering only ten li a day. The civilians were no doubt with the infantry whilst Liu Bei was leading the front with the cavalry. Cao Cao sent 5000 elite light armoured cavalry after Liu Bei, covering 300 li a day in a forced march. They caught up with Liu Bei's army at Changban and defeated him. According to Liu Bei's SGZ and the ZZTJ, Liu Bei then abandoned his family and Zhao Yun also fled with Liu Bei and the cavalry at this point (the infantry was captured). According to the facts that we have, Zhao Yun definitely did turn back and wasn’t merely lagging behind or left with the family. He turned back much later than most people believe. Remember that historically he was not assigned to guard the family.

I think it is logical that the daughters would have been near to the mother and son and therefore if the daughters were captured, then it seems likely that Zhao Yun did indeed fight off enemy troops when he rescued the wife and son. Since the daughters would likely have been with the mother, it makes more sense that the entire family was captured first and then Zhao Yun arrived later and managed to attack and defeat the enemy contingent holding the wife and son and escaped with them. The daughters may have been taken elsewhere before this time. I think that this is a reasonable possibility.

If Zhao Yun found the family before the enemy encountered them (as many believe), then why would the daughters not be with the mother and yet the son conveniently was? (I am assuming that Zhao Yun would have rescued the daughters too if they were with the mother). I would think that the mother would never allow any of her children to escape her sight. I think this possibility is therefore less likely.

Edited by Elitemsh, 13 April 2008 - 08:18 AM.





2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users


    Google (1)