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Shang Dynasty and the Chu Warring State


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#46 Rykard

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 12:47 AM

I'm just stating. Shang Dynasty or Chu Dynasty may have composed of many ethnic groups today. Even Chinese Anthro and Historian stated that the Miao came from the Northeast where Shang Dynasty supposedly is located at. I shall not fight with Online Nationalists but rather speak to EDUCATED LONG-TIME CHINESE EXPERTS FROM CHINA.


Even if it's true that Miao/Hmong came from Northeast, it's very unlikely Miao/Hmong were there when Shang Dynasty is created. I always heard a lot of Miao/Hmong says that Miao/Hmong started migrating after Chiyou lost. The battle of Zhuolu where Chiyou getting killed is around 2500 BC while Shang Dynasty is 1600 BC-1046BC. By the moment Shang Dynasty created, most Miao/Hmong people already left Northeastern China, Shandong,Hebei and Henan.

http://en.wikipedia....attle_of_Zhuolu
http://en.wikipedia....e_Rise_of_Shang

Edited by Rykard, 04 September 2011 - 12:51 AM.


#47 mohistManiac

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 02:34 AM


Even if it's true that Miao/Hmong came from Northeast, it's very unlikely Miao/Hmong were there when Shang Dynasty is created. I always heard a lot of Miao/Hmong says that Miao/Hmong started migrating after Chiyou lost. The battle of Zhuolu where Chiyou getting killed is around 2500 BC while Shang Dynasty is 1600 BC-1046BC. By the moment Shang Dynasty created, most Miao/Hmong people already left Northeastern China, Shandong,Hebei and Henan.

http://en.wikipedia....attle_of_Zhuolu
http://en.wikipedia....e_Rise_of_Shang


That's simply a gross exaggeration of events. People in the past fought frequent ritualistic warfare between chiefdoms that have not yet organized to become states. The wars would consist of no more than several dozen followers on either side fighting a war that lasted for only days, few weeks at the most. The polities were not keen on expending resources on prolonged warfare when their function was ritualistic. When either side side admits defeat due to the loss of a few members the war is over. There is no evidence to suggest that an evacuation took place for the Miao/Hmong if they were included among the peoples of the northeast. Separate independent identities remained up to the fall of the Qin when the Yan state, an expansive cultural area of Yan peoples finally got assimilated into the Han dynasty.
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#48 Rykard

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 03:28 AM


That's simply a gross exaggeration of events. People in the past fought frequent ritualistic warfare between chiefdoms that have not yet organized to become states. The wars would consist of no more than several dozen followers on either side fighting a war that lasted for only days, few weeks at the most. The polities were not keen on expending resources on prolonged warfare when their function was ritualistic. When either side side admits defeat due to the loss of a few members the war is over. There is no evidence to suggest that an evacuation took place for the Miao/Hmong if they were included among the peoples of the northeast. Separate independent identities remained up to the fall of the Qin when the Yan state, an expansive cultural area of Yan peoples finally got assimilated into the Han dynasty.


Did you read the wikipedia link? It said the battle involve around 8000-15000 for Huaxia while 15000-26000 for the dongyi/jiuli tribe. I'm sure all this theory come from historian/expert or ancient history record. Regarding the evacuation, it something that I always heard from Hmong/Miao in the internet that they evacuate after Chiyou lost. Maybe there are Miao/Hmong people in Shang dynasty, but only in the minority.

There is a battle between Sanmiao and Xia dynasty(assume that Xia dynasty is real not myth), where Sanmiao lost and exiled to the south, the area of Han River.

Soon afterwards Shun sent Yu to lead an army to suppress the Sanmiao tribe who continuously abused the boundary tribes. After defeating them, he exiled them south to the Han River area. Their victory strengthened the Xia tribe’s power even more.


http://en.wikipedia....y#Establishment

If this is true, then during Shang dynasty, Miao/Hmong are in Han River area, where they are the minority of Shang people since Han River area only consists of small portion of Shang dynasty geographic area.

Anyway, the people of Shang are of Huaxia origin as proven by bones remains of Shang people.

According to Chinese tradition, the Shang dynasty was founded by a rebel king, Tang of Shang, who overthrew the last Xia ruler in the Battle of Mingtiao. According to the Shiji, the Shang had a long history, and there are different theories about their origin.[3] An analysis of bones from the remains of Shang people showed a Huaxia ethnic origin.[4]


http://en.wikipedia....e_Rise_of_Shang

Huaxia people formed the nucleus of what become Han Chinese.This means the people of Shang dynasty, or at least the majority of them are of Huaxia origin, not Miao/Hmong.

In the narrow, original sense, Huaxia refers to a group (or confederation of tribes) of ancient people living along the Yellow River who formed the nucleus of what later became the Han ethnic group in China.


http://en.wikipedia....cal_development

Edited by Rykard, 04 September 2011 - 03:57 AM.


#49 mohistManiac

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 01:38 AM


Did you read the wikipedia link? It said the battle involve around 8000-15000 for Huaxia while 15000-26000 for the dongyi/jiuli tribe. I'm sure all this theory come from historian/expert or ancient history record. Regarding the evacuation, it something that I always heard from Hmong/Miao in the internet that they evacuate after Chiyou lost. Maybe there are Miao/Hmong people in Shang dynasty, but only in the minority.

There is a battle between Sanmiao and Xia dynasty(assume that Xia dynasty is real not myth), where Sanmiao lost and exiled to the south, the area of Han River.



http://en.wikipedia....y#Establishment

If this is true, then during Shang dynasty, Miao/Hmong are in Han River area, where they are the minority of Shang people since Han River area only consists of small portion of Shang dynasty geographic area.

Anyway, the people of Shang are of Huaxia origin as proven by bones remains of Shang people.



http://en.wikipedia....e_Rise_of_Shang

Huaxia people formed the nucleus of what become Han Chinese.This means the people of Shang dynasty, or at least the majority of them are of Huaxia origin, not Miao/Hmong.



http://en.wikipedia....cal_development


I must have missed it but I did follow the links. Which was the one that gave the numbers of the followers in battle? In any case I still fail to see how there was an arrested development of non Huaxia tribal groups. Historically it makes much more sense that these populations still reside within the same lands but carry different identities than their original ones due to assimilation amongst the ruling populations. The whole rise of Shang along with the myths involving the thriving of Huaxia peoples after the battle of Zhuolu simply set some vague inauguration period where the leading dynasty has dispelled all other notions of authority but their own. It does not mean separate ethnic groups no longer persisted nor that there remained only one ethnic group while all others were entirely vanquished or had led an mass exodus to somewhere else.

Edited by mohistManiac, 13 September 2011 - 01:44 AM.

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#50 Rykard

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 07:45 AM


I must have missed it but I did follow the links. Which was the one that gave the numbers of the followers in battle? In any case I still fail to see how there was an arrested development of non Huaxia tribal groups. Historically it makes much more sense that these populations still reside within the same lands but carry different identities than their original ones due to assimilation amongst the ruling populations. The whole rise of Shang along with the myths involving the thriving of Huaxia peoples after the battle of Zhuolu simply set some vague inauguration period where the leading dynasty has dispelled all other notions of authority but their own. It does not mean separate ethnic groups no longer persisted nor that there remained only one ethnic group while all others were entirely vanquished or had led an mass exodus to somewhere else.


I'm not sure if there are any of them still resides the same land, but I'm pretty majority of them migrate after sanmiao lost. It's even being mentioned in the video below adn acknowledged by Miao/Hmong. So if there are some of them still remain, it only the minority.

Hmong History


#51 mohistManiac

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 02:56 PM


I'm not sure if there are any of them still resides the same land, but I'm pretty majority of them migrate after sanmiao lost. It's even being mentioned in the video below adn acknowledged by Miao/Hmong. So if there are some of them still remain, it only the minority.

Hmong History
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hYuXbtlvHg


I stopped taking the video seriously after it described how it is believed Hmong originated from Mesopotamia.
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#52 Tazfelis

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 02:41 AM


I stopped taking the video seriously after it described how it is believed Hmong originated from Mesopotamia.


I don't believe in that part either, but I believed the part where it says most Miao/Hmong migrate to south after San Miao lost to be true since it was written in ancient historical record.

Anyway, Shang is definitely Huaxia/Han Chinese.

According to Chinese tradition, the Shang dynasty was founded by a rebel king, Tang of Shang, who overthrew the last Xia ruler in the Battle of Mingtiao. According to the Shiji, the Shang had a long history, and there are different theories about their origin.[3] An analysis of bones from the remains of Shang people showed a Huaxia ethnic origin.[4]


http://en.wikipedia....cal_development

In the narrow, original sense, Huaxia refers to a group (or confederation of tribes) of ancient people living along the Yellow River who formed the nucleus of what later became the Han ethnic group in China.



http://en.wikipedia....cal_development

In other words,

Shang=Huaxia
Han Chinese=Huaxia

Therefore,
Shang=Huaxia=Han Chinese
Shang=Han Chinese

Edited by Tazfelis, 17 September 2011 - 09:47 AM.


#53 Korin

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 07:38 PM

How about Xia dynasty because it is called Huaxia and not Huashang.


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#54 Chubby Prince of Chu

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 01:30 AM

uhh. do you even understand what texts he was referring to? he was talking about texts INSIDE the tomb, WRITTEN BY the people who buried lady dai in that tomb 2,000 years ago, not scholars from today. you don't seem to comprehend anything he said.

The langauge of those texts were chinese- they were written in chinese characters, not miao. also, your "miao" alpabet were invented by a christian misionary in the 1900s

http://www.omniglot....pollardmiao.htm
http://www.omniglot....iting/hmong.htm

do chinese characters fit miao language? no. Do chinese characters fit chinese languages like mandarin? yes.

the shang dynasty left behind writen records in its oracle bone script, a direct ancestor of modern chinese script. Linguists say that the shang langauge was a of Old Chinese, not Miao.

The alphabet you are referring to was indeed created by Christian missionaries, but that was a way for the French westerners to understand us since we hold a strategic area and knowledge of the land ( South East Asia at the time). Also the debate with Lady Dai's ethnicity on Miao/Hmong Vs. Some Other Chinese ethic group. I would have to say she is Miao/Hmong since the Silk Banner gives it away. Three worlds on the Silk Banner proves it. My Reason: 1. The Sun and Moon are shown, and with them on the same world are two man. These man in the Miao/Hmong religions are the guards to the heavenly court where they will be judged. 2. On the Second world there are two people on the left, one and the middle, and three to the right. I don't know what the two people on the left, and the one in the middle mean, but I know what the three man mean. In the Miao/Hmong religion it is believe that every person has three souls. I could go into much detail, but there are so many variations/interpretations of the three soul of a human. 3. It's obvious what the third one means...the underworld, but what I would like to point out that the number three is consider a lucky number in the Miao/Hmong religion and culture. It is because my friend three in Miao/Hmong can mean the number "three" or it means "us" or "ours". The name for San Miao is actually suppose to mean "Our People/race" You could say it means "Our Miao" ,but who would refer their race from someone elses view? I agree that the Shangs are 100% not Miao, but I would like to mention that the Shang dynasty are mention in an Ancient Hmong( Not Miao this time ) song. I would also like to say that the Chu people are Miao/Hmong, but if you want me to go into detail with that I'll do when I have the time. So for now I'll sit here until you have something to say.-  Chubby Prince of Chu



#55 Shiang

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 10:16 AM

The alphabet you are referring to was indeed created by Christian missionaries, but that was a way for the French westerners to understand us since we hold a strategic area and knowledge of the land ( South East Asia at the time). Also the debate with Lady Dai's ethnicity on Miao/Hmong Vs. Some Other Chinese ethic group. I would have to say she is Miao/Hmong since the Silk Banner gives it away. Three worlds on the Silk Banner proves it. My Reason: 1. The Sun and Moon are shown, and with them on the same world are two man. These man in the Miao/Hmong religions are the guards to the heavenly court where they will be judged. 2. On the Second world there are two people on the left, one and the middle, and three to the right. I don't know what the two people on the left, and the one in the middle mean, but I know what the three man mean. In the Miao/Hmong religion it is believe that every person has three souls. I could go into much detail, but there are so many variations/interpretations of the three soul of a human. 3. It's obvious what the third one means...the underworld, but what I would like to point out that the number three is consider a lucky number in the Miao/Hmong religion and culture. It is because my friend three in Miao/Hmong can mean the number "three" or it means "us" or "ours". The name for San Miao is actually suppose to mean "Our People/race" You could say it means "Our Miao" ,but who would refer their race from someone elses view? I agree that the Shangs are 100% not Miao, but I would like to mention that the Shang dynasty are mention in an Ancient Hmong( Not Miao this time ) song. I would also like to say that the Chu people are Miao/Hmong, but if you want me to go into detail with that I'll do when I have the time. So for now I'll sit here until you have something to say.-  Chubby Prince of Chu


The practices used in Changsha were religious practices dating from the time of Chu. That has nothing to do with ethnicity. Chu was founded by a Zhou (Huaxia or Han) noble with the surname Mi, claiming descent from the Yellow Emperor like other Zhou nobility, the Mi family were enfeoffed in Chu by the Zhou King. As Chu expanded from its original tiny area in Henan/Hubei and declared its independence, it swalled up a massive amount in Hunan, Guizhou, Sichuan, Jiangsu, which were inhabited by Miao and other non-Han native peoples. It adopted the distinct native religious practices of Miao and others but they kept claiming to be a Zhou state, an inheritor of the Zhou political and cultural order.

Qin was also founded by a Zhou noble claiming descent from one of the five Emperors and enfeoffed by thr Zhou King, they adopted soem native practices in western China as well.

Chu passed on those distinct customs to Changsha, even though the royal family in Changsha was the same as the Han dynasty royal family (the Han Emperors enfeoffed one of their own family members as Prince of Changsha, so the Prince of Changsha was Han in every definition of the word). It's likely that all nobility in the Changsha Princedom followed Chu religious practices, including those Han who were appointed as nobility to fiefdoms in Changsha like Marquis Li Cang of Dai.

#56 Chubby Prince of Chu

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 10:07 PM

The practices used in Changsha were religious practices dating from the time of Chu. That has nothing to do with ethnicity. Chu was founded by a Zhou (Huaxia or Han) noble with the surname Mi, claiming descent from the Yellow Emperor like other Zhou nobility, the Mi family were enfeoffed in Chu by the Zhou King. As Chu expanded from its original tiny area in Henan/Hubei and declared its independence, it swalled up a massive amount in Hunan, Guizhou, Sichuan, Jiangsu, which were inhabited by Miao and other non-Han native peoples. It adopted the distinct native religious practices of Miao and others but they kept claiming to be a Zhou state, an inheritor of the Zhou political and cultural order.

Qin was also founded by a Zhou noble claiming descent from one of the five Emperors and enfeoffed by thr Zhou King, they adopted soem native practices in western China as well.

Chu passed on those distinct customs to Changsha, even though the royal family in Changsha was the same as the Han dynasty royal family (the Han Emperors enfeoffed one of their own family members as Prince of Changsha, so the Prince of Changsha was Han in every definition of the word). It's likely that all nobility in the Changsha Princedom followed Chu religious practices, including those Han who were appointed as nobility to fiefdoms in Changsha like Marquis Li Cang of Dai.

When people talk about Lady Dai and the guessing of her ethnicity they always refer to her husband which was a Han. So people just guessed she was a Han. Like said before to prove my point  look at her banner. It matches Miao/Hmong beliefs. I've never checked ,but do other ethnicity believed in three worlds in their religion in China? The Chu dynasty started out as Mi, but as they expanded so did there family. They became Xiongs (which is a Miao/Hmong clan). The Chu became more Miao/Hmong than Han or whatever culture your suggesting it originated from because of it's location. The Chu dynasty also worshiped Chi You, who was a war god and ancestor to the Miao/Hmong. The Chu's famous instruments were the lusheng and bells. Lusheng were only used by Miao/Hmong and the bells could be the reason why it's called Chu since in Hmong "Chu" means bell. The language spoken in Chu is more closely related to Miao/Hmong than any other Middle Chinese language. If this doesn't sound convincing enough DNA can prove my point that the Chu Kingdom is/became Miao/Hmong. During the Chu rule their capitals were near the Yangtze river. The Miao/Hmong people settled on the Yangtze river during this period and were living it until the the 1800s when they gradually move to South East Asia. You can look at DNA maps of China and see that Miao/Hmong presence is still there in the area. If you can disprove this than you've won the debate my good man, but how can you now since DNA I've backed mine up with scientific fact (sorry if this sounds rude, don't mean to be rude).  



#57 Shiang

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 11:37 AM

When people talk about Lady Dai and the guessing of her ethnicity they always refer to her husband which was a Han. So people just guessed she was a Han. Like said before to prove my point  look at her banner. It matches Miao/Hmong beliefs. I've never checked ,but do other ethnicity believed in three worlds in their religion in China? The Chu dynasty started out as Mi, but as they expanded so did there family. They became Xiongs (which is a Miao/Hmong clan). The Chu became more Miao/Hmong than Han or whatever culture your suggesting it originated from because of it's location. The Chu dynasty also worshiped Chi You, who was a war god and ancestor to the Miao/Hmong. The Chu's famous instruments were the lusheng and bells. Lusheng were only used by Miao/Hmong and the bells could be the reason why it's called Chu since in Hmong "Chu" means bell. The language spoken in Chu is more closely related to Miao/Hmong than any other Middle Chinese language. If this doesn't sound convincing enough DNA can prove my point that the Chu Kingdom is/became Miao/Hmong. During the Chu rule their capitals were near the Yangtze river. The Miao/Hmong people settled on the Yangtze river during this period and were living it until the the 1800s when they gradually move to South East Asia. You can look at DNA maps of China and see that Miao/Hmong presence is still there in the area. If you can disprove this than you've won the debate my good man, but how can you now since DNA I've backed mine up with scientific fact (sorry if this sounds rude, don't mean to be rude).  


Chu'a capital was originally in Danyang in Henan (northern China), then Ying in Hubei, then Shouchun in Anhui and Pengcheng in Jiangsu. Those are not Miao areas. Chu was originally a tiny fiefdom in Henan in Northern China before expanding and taking over Miao areas in Hunan far to the south, but they never put their capital there.

Chu Ci 楚辭 "Songs of Chu" are in Classical Chinese. So are Chu official documents and inscriptions. I haven't seen any Chu inscriptions and writings which are Miao language. The official language of Chu was a form of Classical Chinese like the other Zhou states.

CMOC_Treasures_of_Ancient_China_exhibit_

#58 Chubby Prince of Chu

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 03:06 PM

Chu'a capital was originally in Danyang in Henan (northern China), then Ying in Hubei, then Shouchun in Anhui and Pengcheng in Jiangsu. Those are not Miao areas. Chu was originally a tiny fiefdom in Henan in Northern China before expanding and taking over Miao areas in Hunan far to the south, but they never put their capital there.

Chu Ci 楚辭 "Songs of Chu" are in Classical Chinese. So are Chu official documents and inscriptions. I haven't seen any Chu inscriptions and writings which are Miao language. The official language of Chu was a form of Classical Chinese like the other Zhou states.

CMOC_Treasures_of_Ancient_China_exhibit_

The Chu Ci was written during the Han dynasty not during the warring state period. Which of course it would not be written in Miao. The only way to know how to write Miao during those time is only if you were someone who preserving it secretly. Sir, I think you missed the part where I said Miao lived along the Yangtze river which is in those three provinces (beside Henan where Chu started out Han). Yes, I agree that Chu started out as a small little Han kingdom, but like said ,by me and professional historians, before as Chu expanded to the East and South they absorbed the Miao/Hmong people and their customs. The Royal Family even turned Miao/Hmong, Xiong, which has two meaning in Miao/Hmong "Bear"(Mi) and Bamboo. You can also look at Chu's culture and notice it's more Miao/Hmong than Han. The Chu language is also in the same family as the Miao/Hmong language. The Chu's religion even has similarities with Miao/Hmong religions. I also had said that DNA points that the Miao/Hmong were a majority during those periods in Southern China. If I'am wrong about Chu being Miao/Hmong, then it wasn't definitely Han either because it's culture and people are different than the Han in a major way.



#59 Shiang

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Posted Yesterday, 07:30 AM

The Chu Ci was written during the Han dynasty not during the warring state period. Which of course it would not be written in Miao. The only way to know how to write Miao during those time is only if you were someone who preserving it secretly. Sir, I think you missed the part where I said Miao lived along the Yangtze river which is in those three provinces (beside Henan where Chu started out Han). Yes, I agree that Chu started out as a small little Han kingdom, but like said ,by me and professional historians, before as Chu expanded to the East and South they absorbed the Miao/Hmong people and their customs. The Royal Family even turned Miao/Hmong, Xiong, which has two meaning in Miao/Hmong "Bear"(Mi) and Bamboo. You can also look at Chu's culture and notice it's more Miao/Hmong than Han. The Chu language is also in the same family as the Miao/Hmong language. The Chu's religion even has similarities with Miao/Hmong religions. I also had said that DNA points that the Miao/Hmong were a majority during those periods in Southern China. If I'am wrong about Chu being Miao/Hmong, then it wasn't definitely Han either because it's culture and people are different than the Han in a major way.


The picture I showed you is an artifact from the Chu Kingdom and its written in Chinese. The Chu Kingdom used Chinese language (written in "Bird-worm seal script") in its official inscriptions, documents, orders which were found in Chu tombs. Also the Wu and Yue Kingdom used Chinese language (as it can be seen on the Sword of Goujian and Spear of Fuchai). There are no records of any other written language in China from that time besides Chinese languages.

#60 ahxiang

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Posted Yesterday, 05:30 PM

The picture I showed you is an artifact from the Chu Kingdom and its written in Chinese. The Chu Kingdom used Chinese language (written in "Bird-worm seal script") in its official inscriptions, documents, orders which were found in Chu tombs. Also the Wu and Yue Kingdom used Chinese language (as it can be seen on the Sword of Goujian and Spear of Fuchai). There are no records of any other written language in China from that time besides Chinese languages.

 

 

 

Didn't we go over this a long time ago? There is only one Chinese characterset since prehistory. Before Huangdi the Yellow lord, there was only the usage of cords. At most some rudimentary writings. The history said clearly that the Hmong-miao people never had a written language. All the ancient writings were one or the other form of styles, just like English cursive versus print fonts. More, the ancestor of the Chu people didNOT originate from the south, nor did they reside to the south before the Zhou dynasty. It was the Zhou king who assigned the land of today's northern Hubei province, i.e., the original San-miao land, to Chu. Where could the Chu clan reside? In the very heartland of the former Shang dynasty domain. In another word, the Chu people were the "privileged" class serving under the Shang ruling clan, the same as the later Qin people acting as the garrison troops of the Shang dynasty. The link of CHU to SHANG lied in this very fact that the Chu ancestors always served under the Shang dynasty. In another sense, the Chu clan could be of the same royal family as the Shang people.

 

The Shang people, of course, were said to have its lineage continue in the land of Uncle Tang's domain, i.e., southern Shanxi, the heartland of the Xia Sinitic civilization. They were said to have the same lineage as the Jiang surnamed clans that descended from YANDI the Fiery lord. We ancient Chinese made this distinction between the Yellow lord and the Fiery lord since day one, and attributed all types of barbarians to be descendants of the Jiang-surnamed Yandi lineage, including San-Miao.

 

In ancient times, there was no DNA technology to ascertain it. What I could deduce was that the YANDI clan, which originated in the Mt. Songshan area or the land of Yi and Qi, called by the Yi-Qi-shi, around the Yi-shui River, Luo-he and etc, or today's northern Henan, couldbe the first O3 Sinitic clan that penetrated to the east to take rule of the O3 Hmong-miao. Then we have the O3 Sinitic Yellow lord going east to take the place of the Yandi rule. In another word, the JI versus JIANG lineage in ancient history could be reconciled. But we have to note that the Yandi lineage, for their longer history of dwelling among the Hmong-miao, were considered more barbarian than the Yellow lord people.






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