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Shang Dynasty and the Chu Warring State


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#46 Rykard

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 12:47 AM

I'm just stating. Shang Dynasty or Chu Dynasty may have composed of many ethnic groups today. Even Chinese Anthro and Historian stated that the Miao came from the Northeast where Shang Dynasty supposedly is located at. I shall not fight with Online Nationalists but rather speak to EDUCATED LONG-TIME CHINESE EXPERTS FROM CHINA.


Even if it's true that Miao/Hmong came from Northeast, it's very unlikely Miao/Hmong were there when Shang Dynasty is created. I always heard a lot of Miao/Hmong says that Miao/Hmong started migrating after Chiyou lost. The battle of Zhuolu where Chiyou getting killed is around 2500 BC while Shang Dynasty is 1600 BC-1046BC. By the moment Shang Dynasty created, most Miao/Hmong people already left Northeastern China, Shandong,Hebei and Henan.

http://en.wikipedia....attle_of_Zhuolu
http://en.wikipedia....e_Rise_of_Shang

Edited by Rykard, 04 September 2011 - 12:51 AM.


#47 mohistManiac

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 02:34 AM


Even if it's true that Miao/Hmong came from Northeast, it's very unlikely Miao/Hmong were there when Shang Dynasty is created. I always heard a lot of Miao/Hmong says that Miao/Hmong started migrating after Chiyou lost. The battle of Zhuolu where Chiyou getting killed is around 2500 BC while Shang Dynasty is 1600 BC-1046BC. By the moment Shang Dynasty created, most Miao/Hmong people already left Northeastern China, Shandong,Hebei and Henan.

http://en.wikipedia....attle_of_Zhuolu
http://en.wikipedia....e_Rise_of_Shang


That's simply a gross exaggeration of events. People in the past fought frequent ritualistic warfare between chiefdoms that have not yet organized to become states. The wars would consist of no more than several dozen followers on either side fighting a war that lasted for only days, few weeks at the most. The polities were not keen on expending resources on prolonged warfare when their function was ritualistic. When either side side admits defeat due to the loss of a few members the war is over. There is no evidence to suggest that an evacuation took place for the Miao/Hmong if they were included among the peoples of the northeast. Separate independent identities remained up to the fall of the Qin when the Yan state, an expansive cultural area of Yan peoples finally got assimilated into the Han dynasty.
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#48 Rykard

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 03:28 AM


That's simply a gross exaggeration of events. People in the past fought frequent ritualistic warfare between chiefdoms that have not yet organized to become states. The wars would consist of no more than several dozen followers on either side fighting a war that lasted for only days, few weeks at the most. The polities were not keen on expending resources on prolonged warfare when their function was ritualistic. When either side side admits defeat due to the loss of a few members the war is over. There is no evidence to suggest that an evacuation took place for the Miao/Hmong if they were included among the peoples of the northeast. Separate independent identities remained up to the fall of the Qin when the Yan state, an expansive cultural area of Yan peoples finally got assimilated into the Han dynasty.


Did you read the wikipedia link? It said the battle involve around 8000-15000 for Huaxia while 15000-26000 for the dongyi/jiuli tribe. I'm sure all this theory come from historian/expert or ancient history record. Regarding the evacuation, it something that I always heard from Hmong/Miao in the internet that they evacuate after Chiyou lost. Maybe there are Miao/Hmong people in Shang dynasty, but only in the minority.

There is a battle between Sanmiao and Xia dynasty(assume that Xia dynasty is real not myth), where Sanmiao lost and exiled to the south, the area of Han River.

Soon afterwards Shun sent Yu to lead an army to suppress the Sanmiao tribe who continuously abused the boundary tribes. After defeating them, he exiled them south to the Han River area. Their victory strengthened the Xia tribe’s power even more.


http://en.wikipedia....y#Establishment

If this is true, then during Shang dynasty, Miao/Hmong are in Han River area, where they are the minority of Shang people since Han River area only consists of small portion of Shang dynasty geographic area.

Anyway, the people of Shang are of Huaxia origin as proven by bones remains of Shang people.

According to Chinese tradition, the Shang dynasty was founded by a rebel king, Tang of Shang, who overthrew the last Xia ruler in the Battle of Mingtiao. According to the Shiji, the Shang had a long history, and there are different theories about their origin.[3] An analysis of bones from the remains of Shang people showed a Huaxia ethnic origin.[4]


http://en.wikipedia....e_Rise_of_Shang

Huaxia people formed the nucleus of what become Han Chinese.This means the people of Shang dynasty, or at least the majority of them are of Huaxia origin, not Miao/Hmong.

In the narrow, original sense, Huaxia refers to a group (or confederation of tribes) of ancient people living along the Yellow River who formed the nucleus of what later became the Han ethnic group in China.


http://en.wikipedia....cal_development

Edited by Rykard, 04 September 2011 - 03:57 AM.


#49 mohistManiac

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 01:38 AM


Did you read the wikipedia link? It said the battle involve around 8000-15000 for Huaxia while 15000-26000 for the dongyi/jiuli tribe. I'm sure all this theory come from historian/expert or ancient history record. Regarding the evacuation, it something that I always heard from Hmong/Miao in the internet that they evacuate after Chiyou lost. Maybe there are Miao/Hmong people in Shang dynasty, but only in the minority.

There is a battle between Sanmiao and Xia dynasty(assume that Xia dynasty is real not myth), where Sanmiao lost and exiled to the south, the area of Han River.



http://en.wikipedia....y#Establishment

If this is true, then during Shang dynasty, Miao/Hmong are in Han River area, where they are the minority of Shang people since Han River area only consists of small portion of Shang dynasty geographic area.

Anyway, the people of Shang are of Huaxia origin as proven by bones remains of Shang people.



http://en.wikipedia....e_Rise_of_Shang

Huaxia people formed the nucleus of what become Han Chinese.This means the people of Shang dynasty, or at least the majority of them are of Huaxia origin, not Miao/Hmong.



http://en.wikipedia....cal_development


I must have missed it but I did follow the links. Which was the one that gave the numbers of the followers in battle? In any case I still fail to see how there was an arrested development of non Huaxia tribal groups. Historically it makes much more sense that these populations still reside within the same lands but carry different identities than their original ones due to assimilation amongst the ruling populations. The whole rise of Shang along with the myths involving the thriving of Huaxia peoples after the battle of Zhuolu simply set some vague inauguration period where the leading dynasty has dispelled all other notions of authority but their own. It does not mean separate ethnic groups no longer persisted nor that there remained only one ethnic group while all others were entirely vanquished or had led an mass exodus to somewhere else.

Edited by mohistManiac, 13 September 2011 - 01:44 AM.

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#50 Rykard

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 07:45 AM


I must have missed it but I did follow the links. Which was the one that gave the numbers of the followers in battle? In any case I still fail to see how there was an arrested development of non Huaxia tribal groups. Historically it makes much more sense that these populations still reside within the same lands but carry different identities than their original ones due to assimilation amongst the ruling populations. The whole rise of Shang along with the myths involving the thriving of Huaxia peoples after the battle of Zhuolu simply set some vague inauguration period where the leading dynasty has dispelled all other notions of authority but their own. It does not mean separate ethnic groups no longer persisted nor that there remained only one ethnic group while all others were entirely vanquished or had led an mass exodus to somewhere else.


I'm not sure if there are any of them still resides the same land, but I'm pretty majority of them migrate after sanmiao lost. It's even being mentioned in the video below adn acknowledged by Miao/Hmong. So if there are some of them still remain, it only the minority.

Hmong History


#51 mohistManiac

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 02:56 PM


I'm not sure if there are any of them still resides the same land, but I'm pretty majority of them migrate after sanmiao lost. It's even being mentioned in the video below adn acknowledged by Miao/Hmong. So if there are some of them still remain, it only the minority.

Hmong History
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hYuXbtlvHg


I stopped taking the video seriously after it described how it is believed Hmong originated from Mesopotamia.
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#52 Tazfelis

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 02:41 AM


I stopped taking the video seriously after it described how it is believed Hmong originated from Mesopotamia.


I don't believe in that part either, but I believed the part where it says most Miao/Hmong migrate to south after San Miao lost to be true since it was written in ancient historical record.

Anyway, Shang is definitely Huaxia/Han Chinese.

According to Chinese tradition, the Shang dynasty was founded by a rebel king, Tang of Shang, who overthrew the last Xia ruler in the Battle of Mingtiao. According to the Shiji, the Shang had a long history, and there are different theories about their origin.[3] An analysis of bones from the remains of Shang people showed a Huaxia ethnic origin.[4]


http://en.wikipedia....cal_development

In the narrow, original sense, Huaxia refers to a group (or confederation of tribes) of ancient people living along the Yellow River who formed the nucleus of what later became the Han ethnic group in China.



http://en.wikipedia....cal_development

In other words,

Shang=Huaxia
Han Chinese=Huaxia

Therefore,
Shang=Huaxia=Han Chinese
Shang=Han Chinese

Edited by Tazfelis, 17 September 2011 - 09:47 AM.


#53 Korin

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 07:38 PM

How about Xia dynasty because it is called Huaxia and not Huashang.


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