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Did the Vietnamese defeat the Mongols?


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#1 tattoo

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 10:51 AM

People talked about the Japanese, the Muslims, etc, but never talked about Vietnamese.

#2 Kulong

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 11:38 AM

I don't know about Muslims but neither Japanese or Vietnamese ever "defeated" the Mongols. They simply repelled Mongol attacks, in the Japanese case thanks to the freak storms and I'm not sure how Vietnamese did it. But neither Japanese or Vietnamese troops have ever set food in Mongol soil.

It's kind of like I try to hit you and you blocked my hit but you never tried to hit me, does that mean you've "defeated" me? No.
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#3 Moping4U

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 01:18 PM

I don't know about Muslims but neither Japanese or Vietnamese ever "defeated" the Mongols.  They simply repelled Mongol attacks, in the Japanese case thanks to the freak storms and I'm not sure how Vietnamese did it.  But neither Japanese or Vietnamese troops have ever set food in Mongol soil.

It's kind of like I try to hit you and you blocked my hit but you never tried to hit me, does that mean you've "defeated" me?  No.

 




You never have to set foot in enemy soil just to call it your victory and their defeat, that doesn't make sense. If they invaded, got beaten, then never came back. That counts as defeat, period. So the Japanese and Vietnamese did defeat the Mongols.

Besides the storms, the Japanese storm the Mongol/Song/Korean ships via fast boats and slaughter the crew and troops. The former Song troops were less than thrilled to fight and a large number of them were "captured". But the hurricanes mainly did the two campaigns in.

The Viet did it by putting spikes on the bottom of the river to sink Yuan ships, and as every army that ever invaded Vietnam knows. It is a natural deathtrap, perfect places for ambushes, malaria, unsuitable climate and a ever-rebellious population.

#4 Yun

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 01:29 PM

Actually, Tran Quoc Thuan (Chen Guojun) - better known as Tran Hong Dao because of his title Prince Hung Dao (Xingdao) - is one of the biggest heroes in Vietnam for repelling Mongol attacks in 1285 and 1287-88.

The 1285 invasion took Thang Long (the Vietnamese capital), and the Vietnamese court made a strategic withdrawal. The summer heat affected the Mongols badly, however, and they retreated after some months, suffering heavy losses from Tran Hong Dao's pursuing Viet troops.

In 1288, the Mongols again took Thang Long. But they ran out of supplies and withdrew again. The withdrawing Mongol navy was caught on the Bach Dang River at low tide with underwater stakes planted by Tran Hong Dao's army - a repeat of the tactics used in an earlier victory on the same river against the Southern Han (Ten Kingdoms) fleet in 938 that had ended Chinese rule over Vietnam. The retreating Mongol army was also harassed and suffered many casualties again.

As a result of these setbacks, the Mongols settled for a loose recognition of their suzerainty by the Vietnamese, rather than attempting military conquest again. Their ability to resist Mongol conquest is a huge source of nationalistic pride for the Vietnamese - whether it's justified or not.
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#5 ih8eurocentrix

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Posted 06 February 2005 - 12:38 AM

DID the mongols reaally get defeated by the indians?

#6 Gubook Janggoon

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Posted 06 February 2005 - 01:29 AM

DID the mongols reaally get defeated by the indians?

 



Weren't the Mughals Mongols?
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#7 Yun

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Posted 06 February 2005 - 02:14 AM

The Mongols never invaded India. Babur, who founded the Mogul dynasty, did claim descent from Timur (Tamerlane), who claimed descent from Chinggis Khan.

The peoples who are considered as having defeated Mongol invasions are the Vietnamese, Cham, Javanese, Japanese, and Mamelukes. Anyone know of others?
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Posted 07 February 2005 - 11:18 AM

The Mongols never invaded India. Babur, who founded the Mogul dynasty, did claim descent from Timur (Tamerlane), who claimed descent from Chinggis Khan.

The peoples who are considered as having defeated Mongol invasions are the Vietnamese, Cham, Javanese, Japanese, and Mamelukes. Anyone know of others?

 


what are the Cham?

#9 Norseman

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 11:41 AM

The peoples who are considered as having defeated Mongol invasions are the Vietnamese, Cham, Javanese, Japanese, and Mamelukes. Anyone know of others?

 


i have heard that the Bulgarians repelled a Mongol Invasion.

#10 Yun

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 12:05 PM

what are the Cham?



An Austronesian people that lived in what is now southern Vietnam, and which had a state known in Chinese records as Linyi 林邑, Huanwang 环王 and Zhancheng 占城. The Vietnamese began expanding southwards during the Ming dynasty, and gradually conquered all of Champa by the 18th century. Before that Champa and Vietnam were often at war, and sometimes allies, for example during the Mongol invasions.

The remaining Cham in south Vietnam today have converted to Islam. Previously they were Hindu-Buddhists.
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#11 xiangyu

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 12:07 PM

You never have to set foot in enemy soil just to call it your victory and their defeat, that doesn't make sense. If they invaded, got beaten, then never came back. That counts as defeat, period. So the Japanese and Vietnamese did defeat the Mongols.

Besides the storms, the Japanese storm the Mongol/Song/Korean ships via fast boats and slaughter the crew and troops. The former Song troops were less than thrilled to fight and a large number of them were "captured". But the hurricanes mainly did the two campaigns in.

The Viet did it by putting spikes on the bottom of the river to sink Yuan ships, and as every army that ever invaded Vietnam knows. It is a natural deathtrap,  perfect places for ambushes, malaria, unsuitable climate and a ever-rebellious population.

 

the japanese and vietnamese simply prevented, Mongol invasions,they (Japanese and viet) never set foot on mongol land ,Conquer suggests decisive and often wide-scale victory: "The Franks . . . having conquered the Gauls

Edited by Yun, 06 December 2005 - 12:16 AM.


#12 Moping4U

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 12:44 PM

the Japanese and viet,simply preventded, Mongol invasions,they (Japanese and viet)never set foot on mongol land ,Conquer suggests decisive and often wide-scale victory: "The Franks . . . having conquered the Gauls

 

He was refering the meaning of victory and defeat. If someone tries to conquer my lands and I drive him out, that signifies a victory. Enough said. If driving out enemies doesn't count as victories than guys like Yue Fei and Qi Jiguang haven't won anything in their lives.

#13 ih8eurocentrix

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:03 PM

ive heard of indians defeating "raids" in the time of ghenghis Khan.
i dont think the bulgarians repelled mongols someone died so the left europe and bulgarians thought they had repelled them

#14 Zhao Mun-Jun

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 11:05 PM

Has anyone ever heard of tamerlame (spelling?) or Timur?

#15 DaMo

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 11:21 PM

If Tamerlane is considered Mongol, then the Mongols invaded part of North India and sacked Delhi.
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