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Was the drunken kung fu real?


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#1 Emperor Wang

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 02:09 AM

Does 'drunken master' really exist after all? And the drunken kung fu too, i taught they were real! Tell me isn't so?
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#2 Pattie

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 09:04 AM

Does 'drunken master' really exist after all? And the drunken kung fu too, i taught they were real! Tell me isn't so?


Personally, I've often wondered how many drunken forms there are. I know of drunken Tai Chi...and assume other arts have their own version.
Cheers,
 

Pattie


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#3 Emperor Wang

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 10:03 AM

I see..
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#4 fireball

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 11:06 AM

The idea is NOT being drunk, but to seem to be drunk. That is the difference. The person who is using the drunken Kung Fu would have full control of his body and limbs, and NOT drunk at all!!! Otherwise, he is NOT doing the Kung Fu correctly. Not that I know for sure whether there is drunken kung fu or not. Anyway, this form of the kung fu is just a way to use Art of War in Kung Fu, and its idea is just trying to make one's opponents thinking one is drunk and can not fight properly. In truth, the person might just totally clear headed and can fight back when the enemies are unsuspecting!!!

#5 ghostexorcist

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 12:03 PM

Hong Kong creative film making at its best. Martial arts is about achieving total and absolute control of your body and mind. Alcoholic intoxication is the polar opposite. To expect a methodology of martial expertise to arise from the serendipitous movements of a knee walking commode hugging drunk is a bit of a stretch. But hey, some people even believe in Santa Claus.

Ralph

Here is a clip of a man performing drunken boxing in the streets of 1927 Shanghai. I guess he is practicing for his next big Hong Kong film role.

#6 ghostexorcist

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 02:44 PM

LOL... Good one... guess I can learn something new every day... who wudda thunk it? LOL...

But if he's not really drinking; where's the joy in that?

Ralph


I think the cameraman was drunk, though. Most of the action happened off frame.

#7 Xin Yi Liu He

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 08:47 PM

From what I understand the original "Drunken Boxing" was based on a system called "Zue Ba Shian" or 8 Drunken Immortals, there is also a Taoist system with a similar name, but they are not related.

I know Ji Jin Shan used to teach this in Shanghai before he died and I also got wind recently of a master in China who supposedly has some very old orthodox Luohan Quan, which I plan on filming (let's call it my part to reserve this part of Chinese Martial Culture).

Jon.

P.S, the Jackie Chan movie (the first one) has orthodox movements from this style (around 70% of the moves in that movie is contained in the set from Ji Jin Shan)

#8 Taijitu

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 03:53 PM

From what I understand the original "Drunken Boxing" was based on a system called "Zue Ba Shian" or 8 Drunken Immortals, there is also a Taoist system with a similar name, but they are not related.


Interesting. I've researched this subject in-depth, and have never been able to find an actual independent style of CMA that is called "drunken style". As others have stated in this thread, it is a component or type of form featured in many different CMA.

Do you have any links to websites about Zue Ba Shian? It would really turn things on end if there was a legit source on it.

#9 Xin Yi Liu He

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 12:57 AM

Interesting. I've researched this subject in-depth, and have never been able to find an actual independent style of CMA that is called "drunken style". As others have stated in this thread, it is a component or type of form featured in many different CMA.

Do you have any links to websites about Zue Ba Shian? It would really turn things on end if there was a legit source on it.



I am very sure that it is a independent system as I know they also have a Zue Jian "drunken sword".

As for articles in English, they are few and far between. I will ask someone I know, who knows this system and will ask them if they can write a article on it.

JB.

#10 Allen

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 05:01 PM

In a Jet li documentary he performs Drunken Sword technique. Also in a shaolin documentary a monk shows how you can practice the druken form by holding a huge pot filled with water to understand how to seem like you are drunk.

#11 ghostexorcist

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 09:52 PM

Interesting. I've researched this subject in-depth, and have never been able to find an actual independent style of CMA that is called "drunken style". As others have stated in this thread, it is a component or type of form featured in many different CMA.

Do you have any links to websites about Zue Ba Shian? It would really turn things on end if there was a legit source on it.

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The Hand Combat Classic (c. 17th century) talks about the style at length.

#12 Lu Su

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 04:39 PM

From what I understand the original "Drunken Boxing" was based on a system called "Zue Ba Shian" or 8 Drunken Immortals, there is also a Taoist system with a similar name, but they are not related.

I know Ji Jin Shan used to teach this in Shanghai before he died and I also got wind recently of a master in China who supposedly has some very old orthodox Luohan Quan, which I plan on filming (let's call it my part to reserve this part of Chinese Martial Culture).

Jon.

P.S, the Jackie Chan movie (the first one) has orthodox movements from this style (around 70% of the moves in that movie is contained in the set from Ji Jin Shan)


Very good. =)

As to how the forms work, only martial artists will understand as its something you feel with your body and mind. Smaller amounts of alcohol can easily loosen joints and create a unique release of typical inhibitions between thought and action. In practice, any martial artist who tries this can easily see its abilities and its own strengths. The goal of the strange 'flowing' stances typically associated in Kung Fu variations of 'drunken combat', is to create a form of additional 'looseness' and allow the fighter to instantly adapt to any situation. Something unique. To 'flow' like water. In short, to use the very advantages it presents fully, besides the obvious increased threshold for pain. I do not agree however that drinking in excess is good for kung fu. At any large level past the average tolerance, it will impair as opposed to strengthen. In smaller amounts though, it can present a great advantage to those who know how to seize it and especially know their limits and the proper amount for consumption. This will vary from individual to individual, based on a variety of factors, such as size, weight, body structure, metabolism, etc. and naturally, their own experimentation.

Most of you won't find things like this in any book or wiki page because it is difficult to describe in words.

Edited by Lu Su, 15 June 2010 - 04:41 PM.


#13 Yeleixingfeng

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 12:57 AM

(Please note that I am just trying to explain the concept of drunken fist, using my knowledge of Taichi.)
Sorry to say, but I think to flow like water is a little impractical. Many people describe Taichi as being as soft as water, as though it is never ending. But, in reality it is NOT. Taichi-practitioners are firm to the ground. Push them with all your might and not even an inch they budge. Higher level ones (like some of my Shifu), conserves your pushing energy with their abdomen and unleashes that energy on you instead. (Hence, the proverb, 'use his energy against him.')
This is a universal rule - all schools of Wushu have routines. Actually, routine, I think, is the most practical thing in fighting. No one fights with their fists alone.
Perhaps the idea of routine is vague in the Western world, so let me explain. A routine is a series of moves arranged together, not simply, but after much consideration. For example, A (the one with no training) punches B's (the one with training) face. (there are different punches, distinguished by the destination of attack) B has several options to counter. That depends on what school he is in, and what kind of thinking the school has. I only know how a Taichi practitioner would normally react, since I am a Taichi practitioner. So, if B is a Taichi practitioner (concept: use his energy against him), he will dodge to the right (it does not really matter which side), and pull(?) 捋 the arm of the punch. To punch someone, you need to have enough energy to launch your punch so as to actually cause pain. Therefore, (think physics), lots of kinetic energy would be in his arm. So, by pulling his arm, you are redirecting his kinetic energy to the left, i.e. your direction of pulling. Therefore, your energy, plus his enormous amount of energy, would eventually throw him to the ground.
The next step of 捋 is 肘 in Taichi, which is elbowing your opponent (in this case, with your right hand. Practise it and your will understand why). Imagine - he is already flying to the ground, with an enormous magnitude of energy. Thus, elbowing him on the chest (before he has the chance to 'fly'), would cause him great pain, not to mention the various 穴道 in your ribs, some capable of killing. Perhaps you don't understand. Imagine elbowing someone stationary, you need to hammer with more force to cause harm. But, if he is already coming your way, you merely need place your elbow there, and let the flying force grind his chest into your elbow. Understand the concept now?
So, it would be wise to practice this until it becomes a habit, an intuition, to the extent that you immediately do this at the attack of a punch to your face, without thinking at all. That is exactly what is happening in the Drunken Fist. They describe it as to flowing like water. It fundamentally means that, there is no plan at all. Just like the water in the river, they just flow, according to the current (i.e. the fighting condition) You do this, I automatically do this to counter. You do that, I automatically do that to encounter. You do nothing, I will also do nothing. So, it is you who determine where this battling is heading, and what I am doing is just what I have been practising all the while. The ultimate advantage to this is that, since there is no plan, your actions are unpredictable. You literally flow with the current. (Don't get me wrong, there are also benefits in being the one with the plan.)
And, being drunk, what with the alcohol and stuff, basically takes your mind off control of your actions, and let the training you have been doing all the while govern. This could be compared to: a person has been singing the same song for the whole of his life, to the extent that his thoughts might no longer be anywhere near the lyrics of the song, nonetheless he will still be able to fully present the song without any mistakes, no lack of expression etc.
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#14 attal

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 10:02 PM

Many styles of kung fu have drunken forms. There is no "drunken style" per se.




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