Jump to content


Photo

Pictures of Mongol Diversity and Opinions


  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1 LongMa

LongMa

    Supreme Censor (Yushi Dafu 御史大夫)

  • Supreme Scholar (Jinshi)
  • 1,173 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wash DC
  • Interests:history, global politics, economics, genetics, psychology, sociology, Confucianist countries, economic development, SubSahara African politics and economics.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Ethnicities,Peoples
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Modern Greater China Political-Economy

Posted 01 October 2008 - 06:12 AM

I thought it would be interesting to post various pictures of Mongols and talk about how they overlap with neighboring East Asian groups.

All pictures I found on this site:

http://www.biodivers...p5?t-21787.html

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by LongMa, 01 October 2008 - 06:14 AM.

"That's One of the tragedies of this life - that the men who are most in need of a beating up are always enormous"

-Preston Sturges 1942 film, The Palm Beach Story.

http://southeastasia...olicyblogs.com/

龙马 Rising!

#2 LongMa

LongMa

    Supreme Censor (Yushi Dafu 御史大夫)

  • Supreme Scholar (Jinshi)
  • 1,173 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wash DC
  • Interests:history, global politics, economics, genetics, psychology, sociology, Confucianist countries, economic development, SubSahara African politics and economics.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Ethnicities,Peoples
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Modern Greater China Political-Economy

Posted 01 October 2008 - 06:18 AM

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

http://l.foto.radika...6781237ff4c.jpg

Edited by LongMa, 01 October 2008 - 06:19 AM.

"That's One of the tragedies of this life - that the men who are most in need of a beating up are always enormous"

-Preston Sturges 1942 film, The Palm Beach Story.

http://southeastasia...olicyblogs.com/

龙马 Rising!

#3 galvatron prime

galvatron prime

    Chief State Secretary (Shangshu Ling 尚书令)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 974 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:malaysia
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Chinese
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 01 October 2008 - 06:24 AM

I thought it would be interesting to post various pictures of Mongols and talk about how they overlap with neighboring East Asian groups.

All pictures I found on this site:

http://www.biodivers...p5?t-21787.html

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image


Picture 6 girls look like Fiona Sit and picture no 7 guy in Genghis Khan guard uniform look like Jordan Chan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiona_Sit

http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Jordan_Chan

#4 LongMa

LongMa

    Supreme Censor (Yushi Dafu 御史大夫)

  • Supreme Scholar (Jinshi)
  • 1,173 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wash DC
  • Interests:history, global politics, economics, genetics, psychology, sociology, Confucianist countries, economic development, SubSahara African politics and economics.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Ethnicities,Peoples
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Modern Greater China Political-Economy

Posted 01 October 2008 - 06:26 AM

Population Structure in Mongolia from a Mitochondrial DNA Perspective.

Mongolia has experienced a complex series of demographic movements over the past 10-20 millennia that have shaped the patterns of its modern human genetic variation. However, modern populations in Mongolia have not been extensively studied for DNA diversity, nor has the genetic contribution of Mongolians to the gene pools of contemporary populations in Southeast Asia and Oceania been fully resolved. Archaeological evidence from as early as the late Neolithic suggests the presence of both West and East Eurasian cultures in this region. Later demographic movements involving the emergence of the Mongolian and later Manchu Empires have further convoluted Mongolias population structure. To clarify the complex population history of Mongolia, we analyzed variation in the mtDNAs of 190 individuals from several Mongolian ethnic groups, including the Uriankhai, Zakhchin, Derbet, Khoton and Khalkha. We screened all samples for phylogenetically informative coding region SNPs and sequenced HVSI to assess control region variation in them. Our data suggest that the mtDNA diversity present in our population is consistent with the general pattern of variation observed in East Asia, with the most frequent haplogroups being C, D and G. Haplogroup variation in Mongolian ethnic groups reveals considerable maternal diversity with a predominance of basal M types. Interestingly, the Mongolians also possessed West Eurasian haplogroups, such as H, J and K, which are not commonly observed in East Asia, even at low frequencies. The main ethnic group in Mongolia, the Khalkha, was highly variable with respect to mtDNA haplotypes in comparison with the other ethnic groups, and clearly distinct from the Khoton and Zakhchin, as evidenced by distance measures. Overall, these data provide insights into the origins and affinities of these populations, their relationships with East Asian groups and neighboring Turkic speaking groups, including indigenous Altaians, and their possible role in the peopling of the Americas.


http://dienekes.blog...-abstracts.html


I find this interesting because I think Japanese have more "Caucasian" features than Mongols, but Mongols clearly share more overlapping ancestry (at least on the female side) with Western Eurasian people (from the Middle East into Europe).

My theory is that this is not recent, but could be pre-Mongol expansion? The Eurasian steppe was full of horseback nomads long before that and there was obviously a Slavic, Indo-Persian speaking, and Turkic speaking population with the Mongols on the far Eastside of this cline. Could this just be a result of normal gene flow between nomadic people? I could imagine them trading women like horse, sheep, etc for good they could not make themselves. The Chinese also recorded people who appeared to be Western Eurasian in the current area of Xinjiang, as early as the 2nd century BCE. Xinjing borders Mongolia and although I do not know the topography of the land various turko-mongol groups have been in an out of the area since that time period (and maybe before). I wish there was some talk of the frequency of these haplogroups.

Anyway...some of these people look Korean or Chinese to me.

There are some that look strange, obviously the brown and blonds look strange...there are Korean kids and Japanese kids and adults with brown hair, natural, I've seen it...my sister in law had brown hair when she was a kid and very light brown eyes, her eyes are still very light like her father, but the bone structure of her face looks very "Mongoloid".

I'm interested to hear opinions...
"That's One of the tragedies of this life - that the men who are most in need of a beating up are always enormous"

-Preston Sturges 1942 film, The Palm Beach Story.

http://southeastasia...olicyblogs.com/

龙马 Rising!

#5 peepee

peepee

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 353 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    NE Asia anthropology & archaeology

Posted 01 October 2008 - 06:44 AM

Anyway...some of these people look Korean or Chinese to me.



The answer is simple,presence of Mongolian blood in both Northern Chinese & Korean populations.It's undisputable fact that they have much more proto-Mongol genes than the Japanese.

Edited by peepee, 01 October 2008 - 06:47 AM.

我相信一個原則:

國與國之間,沒有永遠的朋友和敵人,沒有絕對的公理和正義,永恆不變的只是國家利益.

#6 Zorigo

Zorigo

    Grand Mentor (Taishi 太师)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 459 posts

Posted 01 October 2008 - 12:35 PM

Last few weeks, I was watching Aki basho, Japanese sumo. There are many Mongolians compete in that national sport. In fact 2 current champions are mongolians. One thing strike me is that I just could not recognise fellow mongolian sumo wrestlers. All, in japanse clothes , have pseudo japanese name.

who is Mongolian here?
Posted Image

Here also Who is Japanese, who is Mongolian?
Posted Image

Here , I have gut feeling that almost half of these wrestlers are Mongolians in this picture
Posted Image

Edited by Zorigo, 01 October 2008 - 12:38 PM.


#7 peepee

peepee

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 353 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    NE Asia anthropology & archaeology

Posted 01 October 2008 - 02:49 PM

Here also Who is Japanese, who is Mongolian?


Posted Image



Left is ' Japanese' because his face has Jomon features & Right is ' Mongolian '
我相信一個原則:

國與國之間,沒有永遠的朋友和敵人,沒有絕對的公理和正義,永恆不變的只是國家利益.

#8 LongMa

LongMa

    Supreme Censor (Yushi Dafu 御史大夫)

  • Supreme Scholar (Jinshi)
  • 1,173 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wash DC
  • Interests:history, global politics, economics, genetics, psychology, sociology, Confucianist countries, economic development, SubSahara African politics and economics.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Ethnicities,Peoples
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Modern Greater China Political-Economy

Posted 01 October 2008 - 04:01 PM

The answer is simple,presence of Mongolian blood in both Northern Chinese & Korean populations.It's undisputable fact that they have much more proto-Mongol genes than the Japanese.



Well specific Mongol genes...yes.

Altaic...which is a much broader group...yes for Koreans, no for Chinese. What really pulls the Japanese out of the orbit is not just lack of Mongol or proto-Mongol admixture but the fact that there is a heavy Jomon component...very heavy in some areas. The amount of Y Haplogroup D in Japan is larger than any place in East Asia but for Tibet (and Tibet has a more distant ancient version).
"That's One of the tragedies of this life - that the men who are most in need of a beating up are always enormous"

-Preston Sturges 1942 film, The Palm Beach Story.

http://southeastasia...olicyblogs.com/

龙马 Rising!

#9 peepee

peepee

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 353 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    NE Asia anthropology & archaeology

Posted 01 October 2008 - 04:53 PM

Altaic...which is a much broader group...yes for Koreans, no for Chinese.

What really pulls the Japanese out of the orbit is not just lack of Mongol or proto-Mongol admixture but the fact that there is a heavy Jomon component...very heavy in some areas.



You're correct in linguistic comparison,as Korean spoken tongue is *Altaic whereas Chinese languages belong to Sino-Tibetan language family with exception of modern Mandarin has Mongol & Manchu loadwords.However,a percentage of modern day northern Han Chinese population has proto-Mongol genes from centuries past.

The fact is,general Japanese poulation has more ' indigenous genes ' than previous thought or revealed.

* Also,Korea's Hangul is based off on Mongol Phagpa script.

King Sejong commisioned scholar Shin ( 申叔舟 ) on 13 plus interval trips to Liao-Dong peninsula ( present day 遼寧 province ) for consultations with a Ming scholar 明朝翰林學士 Han-Chinese named 黄瓚 on his expertise in Mongol phonetics,who instrumentally lent a hand to the final development of Hangul.He is referenced in Chosun Annals' 東國文獻備考 " 訓民正音 " for his contributions.
我相信一個原則:

國與國之間,沒有永遠的朋友和敵人,沒有絕對的公理和正義,永恆不變的只是國家利益.

#10 taiji in motion

taiji in motion

    Grand Mentor (Taishi 太师)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 517 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Any chinese-related stuff
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 02 October 2008 - 12:25 AM

Central Asian people has features of both Caucasian European and Mongoloid East Asian, and that confuses a lot of people, generates tons of research and speculation about the existence, the origin and the reason of a type of human that defies conventions. Well, maybe Central Asian is just what they are with both East and West features on as they are natural for people who live in the area, i.e. it's normal for mongoloid people in that area to have light hair and light eyes, not much to talk about even sometimes one finds a person with dark eyes or very light eyes, it's just considered outside the norm. The Eastern Asian type of human simply changes gradually from East to West to become the Caucasian type on the West. The normal equilibrium form is Central Asian while the extreme forms develop to become modern day European or East Asian.
河湖秀水 乱世英雄

#11 peepee

peepee

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 353 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    NE Asia anthropology & archaeology

Posted 02 October 2008 - 12:36 AM

A random opinion,a few appear to look more ' mainland SE Asians ' than northern people of Mongol Steppe.
我相信一個原則:

國與國之間,沒有永遠的朋友和敵人,沒有絕對的公理和正義,永恆不變的只是國家利益.

#12 peepee

peepee

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 353 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    NE Asia anthropology & archaeology

Posted 03 October 2008 - 02:25 AM

Last few weeks, I was watching Aki basho, Japanese sumo. There are many Mongolians compete in that national sport. In fact 2 current champions are mongolians. One thing strike me is that I just could not recognise fellow mongolian sumo wrestlers. All, in japanse clothes , have pseudo japanese name.

who is Mongolian here?
Posted Image

Here also Who is Japanese, who is Mongolian?
Posted Image

Here , I have gut feeling that almost half of these wrestlers are Mongolians in this picture
Posted Image


我相信一個原則:

國與國之間,沒有永遠的朋友和敵人,沒有絕對的公理和正義,永恆不變的只是國家利益.

#13 peepee

peepee

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 353 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    NE Asia anthropology & archaeology

Posted 03 October 2008 - 02:29 AM

who is Mongolian here?


Posted Image



LEFT is ' Japanese ' because he doesn't have typical Mongol facial features & RIGHT is ' Mongolian '

By the way,very few photos posted by LongMa could pass as ' Japanese ' because majority of Japanese genes are ' Siberian ' & others not Mognol.

Edited by peepee, 03 October 2008 - 02:31 AM.

我相信一個原則:

國與國之間,沒有永遠的朋友和敵人,沒有絕對的公理和正義,永恆不變的只是國家利益.

#14 tutu123

tutu123

    Provincial Governor (Cishi 刺史)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 30 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 11 October 2008 - 10:02 AM

Actually, none of the Mongolians the OP posted can pass as Korean. Most of them are western Mongolian.

Here are Khalkh Mongolians, who are the northeastern Mongolians.

Posted Image
All of them look 100% Korean

Posted Image
Only the middle guy can pass as 100% Korean looking

Edited by tutu123, 11 October 2008 - 10:11 AM.


#15 Moonstone

Moonstone

    Military Commissioner (Jiedushi 节度使)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 99 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Asian History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Japanese dialectology and historical linguistics; Asian genetics

Posted 11 October 2008 - 02:28 PM

Posted Image

These people are Tuvans, if I remember correctly. They are not Mongols.

Posted Image

I think this girl is a Kazakh. I have seen her photo posted as an example of a Kazakh at least once before.

As for my opinion of who Mongols resemble most closely, I would certainly say Koreans. Many Tuvans also look very similar to Mongols and Koreans. Once you go as far as the Kazakhs and Kyrgyz, people start to look a bit different on average. I'd say Kazakhs and Kyrgyz in general more closely resemble Chinese than they do either Mongols or Koreans.

Also, I agree with you that most Japanese people look somehow different. I'm not sure what the reason for the peculiar features of the Japanese might be, but a historically high coefficient of inbreeding due to geographical isolation might account for a large part of their distinctiveness.

I guess you could summarize my opinion as follows:
Mongols, Koreans, and Tuvans >>> Most "Eastern"-looking
(Northern) Chinese, Kazakhs, and Kyrgyz >>> Appear intermediate between the extreme "Eastern" group and more "Western" groups, such as Iranians, Turks, and Europeans
Japanese >>> Very weird; I don't think they really fit in any obvious continuum or clinal pattern of variation

Edited by Moonstone, 11 October 2008 - 02:44 PM.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users