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#46 LongMa

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 07:47 PM

i think there are crushes here LOL

From what i know, most koreans are probably a mixture of Coastal South-Eastern Chinese (around present day Zhejiang and Shanghai) and Altaic groups from somewhere around North Korea/Manchuria. The reason is because of the korean method of cultivating rice, originates from Southern China. This same group of people, some of them later went to Japan and brought tattoo culture - same method both used by the Yue of Zhejiang and the Japanese people.

Japanese people are for sure a mixture of South-Eastern Chinese, Korean, the aboriginals and the polynesians. The following groups were influencial to current Japanese culture: Chinese -> agriculture, loan words and religion, Koreans -> grammar, Aboriginals and polynesians -> culture [not too sure about this one].



You seem to assume that technological transfer (rice cultivation) must involve migration and intermixture. Why is that?

Are Russians Orthodox Christians because they are half Greek or significantly Greek in ancestry? NO. The vast majority if Russians have no ancestry from greece and no Slavic ancestry that lived under Greek/Byzantine Rule.

Are the majority of Indonesians or even 1/3 Arab or Persian in ancestry because they are Muslim?

I use Japanese, Korean, and German technology all the time...does that say anything about my ancestry.

Reality is regional and even global trade networks go back thousands of years.

When silver was found in North America and South America by the Spanish and Portuguese it seriously hurt the silver market in India and China...this was in the early 1500s...when the vast majority of Chinese never saw a white man or even heard of the "Americas" they were using "American" silver.

Egyptians widely traded with Greeks, Persians, and various peoples in the Middle East and contributed little or no ancestry to those people, although we can find Egyptian things among their ancient archeological sites and vice versa.

Language is the best example...most people in the world never invented a written language. No one in Europe invented a written languange from scratch...does that mean all Europeans have Phonecian ancestry? Are all SouthEast Asians Indians or mostly Indian?

If most people around me are farmers to some extent and I traded with a people who traded with someone else who found or heard of a new way of farming and I saw the benefit I don't have to marry their daughter or have their sons take over my village for me to seek to emulate it. This is human nature to mimic successful behavior.

There is very little evidence that Japanese people have any Yue evidence and most of it that has been presented on this site is circumstantial as I showed in a post in this section...it is very poorly written evidence. Yue does also not equal Han.

Modern Chinese in those areas, like Fujian are a mixture of Han men and Yue women.

It is like saying Southern French share ancestry with Basque so they are the same people as people in Mexico. Uhm...well there are many people who are of Northern Spaniard ancestry and actually Basque ancestry in Mexico but most of those people also have strong Amerindian ancestry.

What is best is to say that they share some common ancestors.

Yue people (if some moved to Japan) does not make the Japanese "Han" or the Yayoi Han because people from that area over 2,000 years later are Han today.
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#47 peepee

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:11 AM

You seem to assume that technological transfer (rice cultivation) must involve migration and intermixture. Why is that?

There is very little evidence that Japanese people have any Yue evidence and most of it that has been presented on this site is circumstantial as I showed in a post in this section...it is very poorly written evidence. Yue does also not equal Han.

Yue people ( if some moved to Japan ) does not make the Japanese "Han" or the Yayoi Han because people from that area over 2,000 years later are Han today.



Is it also an argument for those few insist on strong Korean connection to modern Japanese race & Japonic islands !?

Back then,they weren't referred as ' Yue ' in Japan.I've stumbled upon ( online ) at least one Japanese language book published on Hayato & Kumaso clans were actually ' Chinese Wu-Yue '.

The fact of the matter is,majority of modern Japanese's ancestors ( Wa-jins & Jomon-ins ) were neither Sinic nor Koreanic.So,I've been dumbfounded by some ignorant netizens regard Japanese are basically Koreans :rolleyes:
我相信一個原則:

國與國之間,沒有永遠的朋友和敵人,沒有絕對的公理和正義,永恆不變的只是國家利益.

#48 Andy Lau

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:11 AM

I think you refer to coastal Chinese region of Shandong peninsula,right ??


not shandong. But the Yue-Wu area. I remember reading from somewhere that a gov't official was sent to Japan from China - not sure which dynasty - and when that official went to the island of japan, he asked the people their origins, and they mentioned the King of Wu. Which is the Wu Kingdom of present day Southern Jiangsu and possibly northern Zhejiang ? Also i read somewhere that the tatoo culture in Japan was also found among the local Wu people as well.

Here is a similar source -> http://users.tmok.co.../jpp/japor.html [it's (2) - Classical Chinese literature]

Edited by Andy Lau, 16 October 2008 - 02:26 AM.


#49 Andy Lau

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:11 AM

I think you refer to coastal Chinese region of Shandong peninsula,right ??


There was also a research that found that an ancient skull found in japan, resembled that of a skull found in Zhejiang.

Also, i found a paragraph from the above source interesting:

a. The Origin of Rice, and the Mon-Khmer People

Wet rice culture is started in the area around aroung the current border between Myanmar and China. In around 400 BC, it spread widely over the lower Yangtze region, where the Han (Chinese) people had not yet come. Here in the region, now the southern part of China (Zhejiang, Fujian, etc.), many kinds of people seem to have been living. Chinese literature of the time describes the people in this southern region as strangers, with customs like tattooing, dying and removing teeth, etc.

Among them, people called "Mon" attract our attention. The Mon people were widespread over the lower Yangtze and had their peak in about the 7th century AD. Now they are living as a minority nationality in China and Myanmar. One of 1996 issues of the Japanese edition of _National Geographic_ had an article on visiting this people. The reporter was impressed by their having faces very similar to Japanese, and found customs to similar some commonly found in Japan, such as carrying babies on the mothers' backs, etc. Their language, belongs to the Mon-Khmer language group. However, it is not considered to be close to Japanese, except some of the words for body parts and the system of indexing pronouns, known as ko-,so-, a-, idu(do) in Japanese. This pronoun system for distinguishing near, near(common), far, and indefinite things are common to Korean and Japanese but not in Northern neighbors of Altaic languages.


Edited by Andy Lau, 16 October 2008 - 02:31 AM.


#50 Andy Lau

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:32 AM

5.b. Rice Moving to the Southern Part of the Korean Peninsula

It was still during the time that the Han people considered these southern parts of China as a land of strangers, so we don't know exactly which of the people among those who were here with rice started to move out. It seems that they didn't go directly to Japan, but settled first in the southern part of the Korean peninsula until 300 BC. The reason for their moving is unknown, but I imagine it was the time of war between countries in the ancient world of China, and people may have moved out seeking a peaceful land.

Takasi Akiba studied the ethnology of the Korean people, and wrote about the custom of binding rope as a religious ceremony ("shimenawa" in Japanese). This culture must be bound to rice culture, and it can be found widely in the half of today's Korea on the south side of 38 degree line. It indicate that this was the boundary of rice culturing people.



#51 Andy Lau

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:32 AM

this might explain why some koreans look like Southern Chinese and some look like far North-east Asian people.

Edited by Andy Lau, 16 October 2008 - 02:38 AM.


#52 peepee

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 05:43 PM

Andy ... :greeting:


Here is one academic research on ' dual origins ' of the Japanese.

a Southeast Asian origin of the ancestors of the Yayoi,contra previous models based on morphological and genetic evidence.


Source: http://www.springerl...1g0300430k6215/
我相信一個原則:

國與國之間,沒有永遠的朋友和敵人,沒有絕對的公理和正義,永恆不變的只是國家利益.

#53 Intranetusa

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 07:43 PM

This comparison is kinda pointless. You're generalizing over a billion people based on perceived facial features.

N&S Korea has around 70 million people total.
Japan has 130 million people.
Mainland China has 1.4 billion people with 60 ethnic groups, with about 1 billion Han.

If you want to do a study on the Han population, then do it in TAIWAN, because at least Taiwan is 98% Han while the mainland is 89% Han.
The Han ethnic group isn't even pure either - you have plenty of mixing with Turkic steppe people in the northwest, nomads from the north, or Austro-Viets in the South for thousands of years.

And if I can recall correctly, Koreans and Japanese people are descendants of people who migrated from the areas in & around China and mainland East Asia.
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#54 Intranetusa

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 07:46 PM

Andy ... :greeting:


Here is one academic research on ' dual origins ' of the Japanese.

a Southeast Asian origin of the ancestors of the Yayoi,contra previous models based on morphological and genetic evidence.


Source: http://www.springerl...1g0300430k6215/


Now, when they say 'South East Asian,' do they mean 'Chinese-ish' S.E. Asians, or the Australian Aborigenes-ish S.E. Asians? lol
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#55 peepee

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 12:51 AM

The Fallacy of Sinophobia ....

There is a major misconception that has been pushing certain Japanese and Korean scholars to find non-Chinese origin for them to feel safe, but the source of their fear was a phantom, a propagandist claim within their neo-Confucian factions that used sinocentrist rhetoric of their times to gain unfair advantage over liberalist ideas.

One need not fight a Chinese enemy that does not exist.The great diversity of the origin and evolution of Chinese civilisation that has been gaining steady momentum should rid the need for pursuing a non-Chinese origin for there is no such thing as a single Chinese origin.

It was to point out the fact that many Japanese and Korean sources blindedly followed the "Out-of-Lake Baikal/Mongol Hypothesis of Japanese/Korean Origin" which has become rather popular during the 1970's in the so-called Egami's "Horserider Theory of Japanese Origin.".

J. Edward Kidder, Jr. covered the history of horses in Japan in his article "The Archaeology of the Early Horse-Riders in Japan".He also provided some great evidence that discredits a few pillars of Egami's horseriders theory.

Horserider Theory,first proposed by Egami and modified by Ledyard, is about the invasion from the continent through Korea of a horse-riding tribe who conquered Japan and founded the Yamato state around 4th century AD. But this theory has few supporters nowadays, as it has been heavily criticized from an archeological point of view.
我相信一個原則:

國與國之間,沒有永遠的朋友和敵人,沒有絕對的公理和正義,永恆不變的只是國家利益.

#56 yarovit

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 05:41 AM

I must ask: what is "average face"? There is no such thing and there has never been such thing. Every person is different and I suppose that no one looks like that “average person”. Moreover, if you superimposed different pictures, you would get completely different results.

The other thing is that making a generalization touching millions of people on basis of few pictures is completely flawed.
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#57 LongMa

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 01:15 PM

I must ask: what is "average face"? There is no such thing and there has never been such thing. Every person is different and I suppose that no one looks like that “average person”. Moreover, if you superimposed different pictures, you would get completely different results.

The other thing is that making a generalization touching millions of people on basis of few pictures is completely flawed.



This is really not as complicated as people make it out to be.

There is a stereotypical Italian look, a stereotypical French look, a stereotypical English look, a stereotypical Eastern Slav look, a stereotypical Japanese look, etc.

I have already posted "averages" of Chinese, Korean, and Japanese women and most people guessed them correctly with no label. Why is that? I think it is obvious.

Just like an average opinion in a poll. You can put it on a bell curve, the large the nation and the more diverse the population input historically (usually both those things correlate, but not always) you have more differentiation in appearance.

Just as I showed on this site, in another thread on Japanese genetics, that Japanese have less genetic divergence in their population than Chinese and why this is is obvious if you look at history and location of each ethnicity.

There is also less divergence in physical features in Japan than in China. I think most people on this site will admit that.

It all makes sense and the correlation is not by accident.

So does this mean all Japanese look a like and most CHinese have no physical relation to each other? No.

If you use a Bellcurve, for any population you can see that there is a norm...if you measure 1,000 faces randomly in a population (making sure they are the same ethnicity) you can get a good average.

Most people in the population will fall near that average, but there will be outliers.

[img]http://developer.mozilla.org/presentations/eich-media-ajax-2007/images/BellCurve.png


For example, Koreans and Japanese, if you did this method and put both populations on a Bellcurve you would have significant overlap, but the average would be different....on either extreme you will have people in Korean or in Japan that have features rarely if not hardly ever found in the other nation, even if most people fall in some range that overlap.


This is all this is about.

Everyone in a population, but identical twins, will vary in appearance will vary in appearance somewhat, but the standard deviation (or range of variance) from the norm depends on how genetically diverse the population is.

Chinese would have far more "spread" on the bellcurve than Japanese or Koreans. So likely also less overlap with them...but in China you can find people who look like a 'stereotypical' Japanese or Korean...

The way to look at this is...

Some Chinese can look Korean or Japanese, but almost all Koreans and Japanese can pass for Han Chinese in China (depending on dress style). The reason is simple, Chinese has greater genetic diversity and many Han Chinese in the North (and even some in the present day South) have ancestry that come from Tugustic and Turkic Steppe Tribes that acculturated into the Han people. Korean and Japanese have strong genetic input from the Northeast Asian steppe as well...more so than the average Chinese (if you look at China as a whole, but a good range can be seen in some areas of China)...

I hope this explains the point of all of this. NO one is trying to say everyone of an ethnicity of millions of people look identical or mostly identical. What we are saying is simply "on average" you can say this type of "look" fits this ethnicity the most.


I would agree also that you can not get this type of "average" from taking 10 pictures or 15 off the net.

As I said the best way is, to my understanding, would be to go to a nation and randomly take frontal pictures of people and average them, I would like to see at least 500-1000, but the reality is that after you get past 100 or 200 each individual person only change the average face by less than 1%, because the majority of there features will overlap significantly with a few people who are already in the picture.


I can show you a picture of average faces from Europe.

Do you think these match stereotypes of the nationalities?

[img]http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4823/avgnegi8.jpg[/img]


[img]http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/9606/avgsedu5.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/8295/avgeeal4.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3331/avgmeng9.jpg[/img]

This is not random, because they are all athletes, but the British looks like an Englishman. The Italian and Spanish one was not far off either. The Tunesian one looks very Berber...The Spaniard is pretty good and also the Ukrainian (which could be Belarussian or Russian as well).

Europeans are less genetically diverse than Asians...so the variation in face in regions in Asia will be greater on average. Europe was populated last and there was a major bottleneck, making ancestry narrow.

So it is not an exact science, but there are stereotypical looks for populations for a reason?

Would you confuse the average Indonesian for a Han Chinese if he was walking around Beijing or Taipei?

Likely not, because the face is far outside the norm.

Edited by LongMa, 19 October 2008 - 01:20 PM.

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#58 peepee

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Posted 20 October 2008 - 03:51 AM

Here is one academic research on ' dual origins ' of the Japanese.

A set of 81 Y chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) was used to trace the origins of Paleolithic and Neolithic components of the Japanese paternal gene pool, and to determine the relative contribution of Jomon and Yayoi Y chromosome lineages to modern Japanese. Our global sample consisted of >2,500 males from 39 Asian populations, including six populations sampled from across the Japanese archipelago.The results also support the hypothesis of a Central Asian origin of Jomonese ancestors, and a Southeast Asian origin of the ancestors of the Yayoi.

http://www.springerl...1g0300430k6215/

Now, when they say 'South East Asian,' do they mean 'Chinese-ish' S.E. Asians, or the Australian Aborigenes-ish S.E. Asians? lol



In geographic accuracy,SE Asia ( which has been a false representative of Thailand Vietnam Burma Cambodia,these nations are nowhere near eastern part of Asia continent ) is China's coastal region of Jiangsu & Zhejiang provinces ( we can include China's Fujian & Canton by default because they're part of a same continental country ).

Central Asia = Mongolia
NE Asia = China's NE coastal & 3 North Eastern provinces ( old Manchuria ) Siberia Korea peninsula Japan isllands
SW Asia = Thailand Vietnam Burma Cambodia Nepal
S Asia = India Pakistan Ceylon
Asia Pacific = Malaysia Indonesia Philippines Singapore etc

Edited by peepee, 20 October 2008 - 02:19 PM.

我相信一個原則:

國與國之間,沒有永遠的朋友和敵人,沒有絕對的公理和正義,永恆不變的只是國家利益.

#59 LongMa

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Posted 20 October 2008 - 05:30 AM

In geographical accuracy,SE Asia ( which has been a false representative of Thailand Vietnam Burma Cambodia,these nations are nowhere near eastern part of Asia continent ) is China's coastal region of Jiangsu & Zhejiang provinces ( we can include China's Fujian & Canton by default because they're part of a same continental country ).

Central Asia = Mongolia
NE Asia = China's NE coastal & 3 North Eastern provinces ( old Manchuria ) Siberia Korea peninsula Japan isllands
SW Asia = Thailand Vietnam Burma Cambodia Nepal
S Asia = India Pakistan Ceylon
Asia Pacific = Malaysia Indonesia Philippines Singapore etc



Actually Central Asia does not equal Mongolia.

Central Asia is a mix of Turkic, Mongol, and also Turkic (and a little Indian Subcontinent) substrains, all mixed...and have been so to varying arounds for thousands of years.
"That's One of the tragedies of this life - that the men who are most in need of a beating up are always enormous"

-Preston Sturges 1942 film, The Palm Beach Story.

http://southeastasia...olicyblogs.com/

龙马 Rising!

#60 Karakhan

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 02:04 PM

Actually Central Asia does not equal Mongolia.


I don't think there's any point of debating over the geographic regions since there's different standards
for example some maps put Mongolia as Central Asia, others as East Asia (for example the UN). Likewise
some put Iran as SW Asia (or western Asia) others put it as South Asia, and Afghanistan as either Central Asia or South Asia.

but lets just use what the UN defines to make things simpler:
http://unstats.un.or...9regin.htm#asia
142

Central Asia: Kazakhstan Kyrgyzstan Tajikistan Turkmenistan Uzbekistan

Eastern Asia: China Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of China Macao Special Administrative Region of China Democratic People's Republic of Korea Japan Mongolia
Republic of Korea

Southern Asia: Afghanistan Bangladesh Bhutan India Iran, Islamic Republic of Maldives Nepal Pakistan Sri Lanka

South-Eastern Asia: Brunei Darussalam Cambodia Indonesia Lao People's Democratic Republic Malaysia Myanmar Philippines Singapore Thailand Timor-Leste Viet Nam

Western Asia: Armenia Azerbaijan Bahrain Cyprus Georgia Iraq Israel Jordan Kuwait Lebanon Occupied Palestinian Territory Oman Qatar Saudi Arabia Syrian Arab Republic
Turkey United Arab Emirates Yemen

Wikipedia has an interesting map which shows the different definitions of each region

South Asia: Posted Image
East Asia: Posted Image
note that the light green area in Russia is NOT Siberia, but the Russian Far East.
Central Asia: Posted Image
note: this one is different

Central Asia is a mix of Turkic, Mongol, and also Turkic (and a little Indian Subcontinent) substrains, all mixed...and have been so to varying arounds for thousands of years.


Indeed it is, but you forgot the most important one, Indo-European speakers (probably Iranic) that can be strong in the southern areas of Central Asia, see these pics for the variety of Central Asian faces:

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image




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