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Is Han even an Ethnic Group?


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#361 Shiang

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 10:41 AM

I'm going to repeated what I said on another thread.

The use of Han as an ethnic term dates to the Age of Fragmentation when Han people adopted the term to define themselves as seperate from the Wu Hu, including the Xianbei. The Xianbei referred to Han people as Han, and it was also used during the Song and Liao dynasties to differentiate Han people from Khitan, and the Jin dynasty to differentiate Han from Jurchen. The Xianbei even forged a geneaology back to Huangdi because they could not forge a genealogy to a Han dynasty era person and claim themselves to be Han, while they were assimilating.

Han as an ethnic term is NOT a Qing invention. It is over 1,500 years old.

#362 Loz4en

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 10:31 AM

If you guys really want the answer and are willing to accept the truth then I will spit it out. Han anthropologically just means NE Asians. However, politically it is equivalent to the word "Chinese" today. I doubt Han even in its original form would be as homogenous as only having a single genetic marker O3. Han probably always had a small cluster of genetic markers. Koreans are the purest and Taiwanese are the most mixed today, now u get the idea.


Edited by Loz4en, 09 August 2014 - 04:57 PM.


#363 mrclub

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 10:20 PM

Han is not homogenous in my opinion


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#364 YummYakitori

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 12:22 AM

If you guys really want the answer and are willing to accept the truth then I will spit it out. Han anthropologically just means NE Asians. However, politically it is equivalent to the word "Chinese" today. I doubt Han even in its original form would be as homogenous as only having a single genetic marker O3. Han probably always had a small cluster of genetic markers. Koreans are the purest and Taiwanese are the most mixed today, now u get the idea.


Koreans are the purest and Taiwanese are the most mixed? Stop feeding Korean ultranationalist trolls all over the internet who think they are really the world's homogenous ethnic race. Have you any idea about the history of Korea and their genetic background?

Genetic tests on the Y-DNA of Koreans have always come up with similar results. They have around 35-40>% of O2b, 30-35% of O3, 4-9% of C3 and a smattering of other haplogroups.

Historically speaking, the Korean ethnic race was formed by the two tribes of Ye (濊 / 예) and Maek (貊 / 맥). Ye was said to be a nomadic tribe to the north whereas Maek was said to be an agricultural tribe to the south. According to the Chinese Erya (爾雅), the totem of the Ye tribe were tigers whereas the totem of the Maek tribe were bears.

After which, the Chinese have settled down in the northern half of the Korean Peninsula during the Han Dynasty (漢朝) and they set up four Commanderies there - Lelang (樂浪郡 / 낙랑군), Xuantu (玄菟郡 / 현도군), Lintun (臨屯郡 / 임둔군) and Zhenfan (真番郡 / 진번군). Of course, since the Chinese had colonized the northern half of the Korean Peninsula for nearly 400 years, some of them got mixed into the Korean gene pool.

To the south of these commanderies were the 3 Proto-Kingdoms of Korea - Mahan (馬韓 / 마한), Byeonhan (弁韓 / 번한) and Jinhan (辰韓 / 진한) who were set up by the indigenous tribes of the Korean Peninsula. After the Chinese had retreated from the northern half of the Korean Peninsula, tribes like Buyeo (夫餘 / 부여) and Okjeo (沃沮 / 옥저) emerged from Southern Manchuria and northwestern Korea respectively.

The Buyeo and Okjeo people were the ones who created some of Korea's strongest empires like Goguryeo (高句麗 / 고구려) and Balhae (渤海 / 발해). Due to the fact that the Buyeo emerged from what was once part of the Xuantu Commandery, the Chinese government has laid claim that Goguryeo was set up by Manchu-related ethnic groups rather than Korean-related ethnic groups, leading to much discontentment.

After that, the three kingdoms of Korea were formed; namely Silla (新羅 / 신라), Baekje (百濟 / 백제) and Goguryeo. I don't have to elaborate what happened but Silla formed an alliance with Tang (China) and eventually destroyed the other two kingdoms.

Originally, Tang only allowed the territories south of the Taedong River (大同江 / 대동강) to become part of Silla whereas the rest of the Korean Peninsula became Tang territory, but due to good relations between Emperor Tang Taizong and King Muyeol, the rest of the modern-day Korean Peninsula was ceded to Silla.

This unified the Korean Peninsula for the first time in history and Silla was heavily influenced by Chinese culture, philosophy and politics. Silla exported many maids to Tang (China), where they have become known as Xinluobi (新羅婢) and they had to pay tribute to China.

After the Tang Dynasty fell due to political unrest and rebellion across the country, China erupted into chaos and was split into many kingdoms. Silla fell to the Mongols as they no longer had any support to rest on; the Mongols set up a puppet regime in Korea which has become known as Goryeo (高麗 / 고려).

During the Goryeo Dynasty, the traditional Korean costume of Hanbok was altered greatly and received a number of Mongol influences. One of them was that the Chima Jeogori (치마저고리) was raised to the chest and an Otgoreum (옷고름) had to be placed at the front.

Goryeo paid tribute to the Mongol Empire in the form of princesses and concubines who were sent off to the nomadic steppes. After the Mongol Empire weakened, General Yi Seong-Gye (李成桂 / 이성계) who would later become known as Taejo of Joseon (朝鮮太祖 / 조선태조) rebelled against the pro-Mongol regime of Goryeo and succeeded.

The new pro-Chinese kingdom of Joseon was set up and an alliance was formed with the kingdom of Ming (China) again. Confucianism (儒家思想) became the state philosophy and the social hierarchy / political system was adopted from China. Both enjoyed great bilateral relations even through the Imjin War (任辰倭亂 / 임진왜란) in 1592 when the Japanese invaded and a joint effort by Ming and Joseon fought them off.

From here, we can see that the Korean ethnic race was made up of 4 different historic tribes - Ye (濊 / 예), Maek (貊 / 맥), Buyeo (夫餘 / 부여) and Okjeo (沃沮 / 옥저). Neighbouring ethnicities like the Chinese got mixed in as well. Tell me more about how they would be considered a homogenous ethnic race please.
Буурэг дэрсэнд уурэглэсэн бужин туулай нь ч амгалан Булээн нууранд нь ганганалдсан хотон шувууд нь ч амгалан Буувэй санаа нь ивлэсэн Бусгуй сэптгэл нь ч амгалан хонхон дуутай бойтгийг нь Цэцэг унсэх нь энхрийхэн хöгöн горхины урсгалд нь Цэнгэг хараахай зуггуйхэн Хиртэшгуй ариухан дагшинд нь Монголын узэсгэлэн яруухан

#365 Loz4en

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 01:02 AM

Yes, those donghu-tungus tribes are infact all NE Asians; they are basically the bachviets/aboriginals of the north. Although culturally more "primitive" than the han Chinese they are in fact purer in blood. Koreans are these mixed with han settlers from china. my grandma's uncle and cousins moved there like 80 years ago, I know.



#366 YummYakitori

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 01:16 AM

Yes, those donghu-tungus tribes are infact all NE Asians; they are basically the bachviets/aboriginals of the north. Although culturally more "primitive" than the han Chinese they are in fact purer in blood. Koreans are these mixed with han settlers from china. my grandma's uncle and cousins moved there like 80 years ago, I know.


The Donghu (東胡) / Tungus (通古斯) peoples do not carry much O2b. Their main marker is C3, which differs from O2b of the Koreans. Please stop being a disgrace here and acting like you are a know-it-all.

O2a and O2b were originally from the same branch and they split up somewhere in Southern China before O2b moved along the east coast of China and sailed across to Japan (Yayoi) and Korea.

Edited by YummYakitori, 10 August 2014 - 01:19 AM.

Буурэг дэрсэнд уурэглэсэн бужин туулай нь ч амгалан Булээн нууранд нь ганганалдсан хотон шувууд нь ч амгалан Буувэй санаа нь ивлэсэн Бусгуй сэптгэл нь ч амгалан хонхон дуутай бойтгийг нь Цэцэг унсэх нь энхрийхэн хöгöн горхины урсгалд нь Цэнгэг хараахай зуггуйхэн Хиртэшгуй ариухан дагшинд нь Монголын узэсгэлэн яруухан

#367 qaib

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 01:24 AM

If you guys really want the answer and are willing to accept the truth then I will spit it out. Han anthropologically just means NE Asians. However, politically it is equivalent to the word "Chinese" today. I doubt Han even in its original form would be as homogenous as only having a single genetic marker O3. Han probably always had a small cluster of genetic markers. Koreans are the purest and Taiwanese are the most mixed today, now u get the idea.

Han anthropologically never mean NE Asians. Han is an ethnic term,not genetic or anthropology.

 

Han are in fact diverse but that doesn't make Han less ethnic than Korean,Japanese,Vietnamese and so on.

 

Genetic=/=ethnicity

Ethnicity is define by culture,self identification,not genetic.

 

During the ancient time,nobody know what is genetic,O3,O2b and stuff like that. No one from Ming,Tang,Han or any other dynasties is going to make genetic test to decide if someone is Han or not. No one use genetic to define ethnicity.

 

Just go check English dictionary and you will notice the definition of ethnic does not involve genetic.


Edited by qaib, 10 August 2014 - 01:40 AM.


#368 LongMa

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 09:57 AM

These arguments could really go on.......... but I find that the concept of nation and race really did exist far before 1800. (of course..... some claim the opposite but many of the advocates tend to have a pretty distinct political affliation that lead you to question......)

Just as the most basic example, as late as the Shang dynasty the concept of Hua Tsia and Yi Di already existed ... is this not a racial concept?Distinction of Nomadic invaders have always been by race... if you do not have a counter distinction that you are also a race urself how do you identify foreign races????

if nation concepts really didn't exist why would there be so much interest in reuniting China during all it's fragmentation periods? the phrase 天下分久必合合久必分 The world (China)will split after long unities and reunite after long fragmentations did not come after 1800 did it? if this is not a national concept and REALLY referred to THE WHOLE world than I'd think China would be far more agressive in it's expansion.

From all i have learned... I really have to disagree with the concept that China had no racial nor national concept before 1800

Confucius said the line between "
Just as the most basic example, as late as the Shang dynasty the concept of Hua Tsia and Yi Di " was culture, specifically upholding and maintaing the "rights".  This concept I think allowed many "barbarian" groups to be accepted as Han after they conformed to Chinese culture.   It helped that most of these barbarian groups looked only slightly different from the Han.

 

However, today in China, if a Japanese, Korean, or Cambodian, let alone a Western adoptede Chinese culture, they would not be accepted as Han, even after 2 generations.  It seemed CHina was a bit different in the past.


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