Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Cantonese or Minnan - Tang imperial language ?


  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1 xng

xng

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 4,180 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Languages spoken:English, Cantonese, Minnan, Mandarin, Singlish, Thai
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Han Chinese
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Language
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Chinese Linguistics, Buddhism, East Asian anthropology

Posted 16 January 2009 - 11:37 PM

http://groups.google...e19dd1b06?pli=1

There is some argument here that Minnan is closest to the Tang imperial language. Northern min languages are influenced to some extent by the northern languages so Minnan is still closer to middle chinese compared to the other min languages. Some of the min languages have lost the 'k','t','p' endings.

Whereas there are also people claiming Cantonese (not standard cantonese but taishanese) is closer to Tang imperial language. Standard cantonese has changed from middle chinese from 'i' to 'ei', 'in' to 'an'.

So which chinese language is closer ? Minnan or taishan cantonese ?

Edited by xng, 16 January 2009 - 11:38 PM.


#2 General_Zhaoyun

General_Zhaoyun

    Grand Valiant General of Imperial Han Army

  • Owner
  • 12,284 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore (Taiwanese/Singapore Permanent Resident)
  • Interests:Chinese History, Chinese Philosophy and Religion, Chinese languages, Minnan/Taiwanese language, Classical Chinese, General Chinese Culture
  • Languages spoken:Mandarin, Taiwanese (Hokkien), English, German, Singlish
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Han Chinese (Taiwanese Hoklo)
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    General Chinese Culture
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Chinese Language, History and Culture

Posted 17 January 2009 - 10:46 AM

http://groups.google...e19dd1b06?pli=1

There is some argument here that Minnan is closest to the Tang imperial language. Northern min languages are influenced to some extent by the northern languages so Minnan is still closer to middle chinese compared to the other min languages. Some of the min languages have lost the 'k','t','p' endings.

Whereas there are also people claiming Cantonese (not standard cantonese but taishanese) is closer to Tang imperial language. Standard cantonese has changed from middle chinese from 'i' to 'ei', 'in' to 'an'.

So which chinese language is closer ? Minnan or taishan cantonese ?


I don't think we can rightfully claim Hokkien (minnan) to be directly equal to Tang official language, although it preserves many tones and pronunciation of middle chinese. So it's quite close. The same goes for cantonese. We don't know which one is closer, but I personally think cantonese has the tendency to be closer, due to large migration of Tang people to Canton. Hokkien was said to be closer to the central plain chinese spoken in Luoyang/Henan province during 4th century (Western Jin dynasty)

The history of Hokkien originated from the War of Yongjia in 310 AD. During that year, the Xiongnu king Shile attacked and captured Luoyang, forcing large number of Han-chinese to migrate southwards. One group started from the region of Henan (luoyang) region. The other group started from Shandong. They migrated southwards and meet in Jiangnan (today's Suzhou region), picked up some "Wu" tones and continued to migrate southwards to Fujian province. These groups of large migrants intermingled with the Minyue population at that time, forming the Quanzhou Hokkien that we know today.

During Tang period, Chen Zhen and Chen Yuanguang led an army to quelch rebellion in Fujian province. They brought to Minnan region the middle chinese tone of 7th century. Later in 10th century, Wang Chao and Wang Shenzhi led another forces to quelch the Huangchao rebellion and brought there the middle chinese tone of 10th century. This formed what's known as Zhangzhou Hokkien.

Note that in Japanese Kanji pronunciation, there was a large influence of Tang middle Chinese tone. The Japanese had preserved a systematic Song Tone (of 10th century), Tang tone (of 7th century) as well as Wu tone (of 4th century). If you're interested, you can try to look into Japanese kanji pronunciation, as it might give you clue on how certain characters are pronounced during Tang period.
Posted ImagePosted Image

"夫君子之行:靜以修身,儉以養德;非淡泊無以明志,非寧靜無以致遠。" - 諸葛亮

One should seek serenity to cultivate the body, thriftiness to cultivate the morals. If you are not simple and frugal, your ambition will not sparkle. If you are not calm and cool, you will not reach far. - Zhugeliang

#3 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 17 January 2009 - 02:20 PM

The history of Hokkien originated from the War of Yongjia in 310 AD. During that year, the Xiongnu king Shile attacked and captured Luoyang, forcing large number of Han-chinese to migrate southwards. One group started from the region of Henan (luoyang) region. The other group started from Shandong. They migrated southwards and meet in Jiangnan (today's Suzhou region), picked up some "Wu" tones and continued to migrate southwards to Fujian province. These groups of large migrants intermingled with the Minyue population at that time, forming the Quanzhou Hokkien that we know today.


Actually, that is only one theory about the origin of the Min/Hokkien dialects. Migration from Jiangnan into Fujian was still very limited in the Age of Fragmentation, and the vast majority of the Fujian population was made up of native tribes. I would say that the true formative period for the Hokkien dialects was the Tang-Song period, with the rise of Quanzhou and Fuzhou as major ports.

BTW, how do we explain the fact that the Fuzhou dialect is so different from the other Min dialects? http://en.wikipedia..../Fuzhou_dialect
Which is closer to Middle Chinese - Minnan or Fuzhou/Mindong?
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#4 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 17 January 2009 - 02:25 PM

On the claim that Cantonese is closest to Middle Chinese, see Andy Lau's thread at http://www.chinahist...showtopic=14875
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#5 lifezard

lifezard

    Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 1,296 posts
  • Location:@?
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History

Posted 18 January 2009 - 10:47 AM

Actually, that is only one theory about the origin of the Min/Hokkien dialects. Migration from Jiangnan into Fujian was still very limited in the Age of Fragmentation, and the vast majority of the Fujian population was made up of native tribes. I would say that the true formative period for the Hokkien dialects was the Tang-Song period, with the rise of Quanzhou and Fuzhou as major ports.

BTW, how do we explain the fact that the Fuzhou dialect is so different from the other Min dialects? http://en.wikipedia..../Fuzhou_dialect
Which is closer to Middle Chinese - Minnan or Fuzhou/Mindong?



it only sounds phonologically different, the terms employed are still very much similar to Minnan. The reason it sounds different from Minnan is

a) it had lost most the consonantal endings "p, t, k, m" of middle chinese that minnan retained while retaining nasal initials of middle chinese , which in minnan, had largely denasalised.

b)most importantly, there is a rather unique feature (at least among chinese dialects) that occurs in fuzhou called 连音变化 in chinese which causes sound changes to the 2nd character of a 2 character word
eg.

initial sound of the 2nd character of 思想 changes from "s-" to "l-" to become something like "siloun" from original "si suon"

initial sound of the 2nd character of 中国 changes from "k-" to "ng" to become something like "tyn-nguo" from original "tyn kuo"

i will say minnan will sound closer to mindong because of this. however, if we compare cantonese(standard), taishan and minnan then i will choose taishan..
i am surprised noone brought up hakka, i do think it is even closer than the ones we are comparing
plain amateur, here to make mistakes, make a fool of ownself, and hopefully learn something in the process

#6 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 18 January 2009 - 01:57 PM

Thanks Lifezard, that was very informative. My own mother is from a Fuzhou family and speaks the dialect, but I don't. I only know it sounds distinctly unlike Hokkien/Minnan.

i am surprised noone brought up hakka, i do think it is even closer than the ones we are comparing


That is a good point - I only didn't bring up Hakka before this because I didn't want to muddy the waters further. This whole issue of "whose dialect was the imperial language" smacks too much of Singaporean language politics (reaction against the Speak Mandarin policy) and sub-ethnic chauvinism for my liking. But I did hear it said once (by a Taiwanese, not a Singaporean) that Hakka was the imperial language of Eastern Jin in the 4th century AD, by which is presumably meant the (unproven) theory that the original Hakka migrated south during the fall of Western Jin to the Xiongnu rebellion in the 310s, and that their language is therefore the oldest and "purest" of all.

Perhaps we can put that to the test using what we know about Middle Chinese. A close comparison of Middle Chinese, Taishan, Hakka, Minnan, and Mindong?
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#7 Andy Lau

Andy Lau

    Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 1,390 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Montreal, Canada
  • Interests:Chinese language, ethnicity and overseas Chinese.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Ethnicities,Peoples
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Southern Chinese Dialects and People

Posted 18 January 2009 - 10:09 PM

Taishanese and Hakka are very similar in terms of Vocabulary, but not grammar. Taishanese grammar is similar to other Cantonese dialects.. which is the only reason why they(Taishanese Canto and Hakka) are not in the same language family. But between Taishanese Canto and Standard Canto, Taishanese cantonese has more similar vocabulary with Hakka, why is that? did we migrate along with the hakka, before spliting up? OR did Taishanese preserve "Old Cantonese" better than Guangzhou Cantonese.. ?

Edited by Andy Lau, 18 January 2009 - 10:11 PM.


#8 lifezard

lifezard

    Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 1,296 posts
  • Location:@?
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History

Posted 19 January 2009 - 06:55 AM

Thanks Lifezard, that was very informative. My own mother is from a Fuzhou family and speaks the dialect, but I don't. I only know it sounds distinctly unlike Hokkien/Minnan.



That is a good point - I only didn't bring up Hakka before this because I didn't want to muddy the waters further. This whole issue of "whose dialect was the imperial language" smacks too much of Singaporean language politics (reaction against the Speak Mandarin policy) and sub-ethnic chauvinism for my liking. But I did hear it said once (by a Taiwanese, not a Singaporean) that Hakka was the imperial language of Eastern Jin in the 4th century AD, by which is presumably meant the (unproven) theory that the original Hakka migrated south during the fall of Western Jin to the Xiongnu rebellion in the 310s, and that their language is therefore the oldest and "purest" of all.

Perhaps we can put that to the test using what we know about Middle Chinese. A close comparison of Middle Chinese, Taishan, Hakka, Minnan, and Mindong?




i have heard of fuzhou as well as fuqing (close) dialect from a few distant relatives (in-laws actually) too and i think it is the only one among the local dialects that i have no idea what is being spoken at all..

actually when i said 'sound like middle chinese', i just meant that hakka pronunciation for the various vocabulary we have is the closest to middle chinese..it does not mean the prestige or unofficial standard in jin and tang times was some sort of hakka; in no way do i think certain unique hakka words--- eg. "makkai" - what, "lai" - son, "liao" - play etc were everyday usage in these languages..

Taishanese and Hakka are very similar in terms of Vocabulary, but not grammar. Taishanese grammar is similar to other Cantonese dialects.. which is the only reason why they(Taishanese Canto and Hakka) are not in the same language family. But between Taishanese Canto and Standard Canto, Taishanese cantonese has more similar vocabulary with Hakka, why is that? did we migrate along with the hakka, before spliting up? OR did Taishanese preserve "Old Cantonese" better than Guangzhou Cantonese.. ?


there is a theory that says that the sam-yap people (represented by guangzhou people) came to lingnan from northern china 1st, (that s why they occupied the best lands and plains), the sei-yap people came next (taisan people being one of them) and occupied the next best lands, the hakka people came last and could only occupy the lousy places which are the hilly regions unsuitable for much agriculture. perhaps that simplifies things, but the region stretching from the jiangxi gan dialect areas through then hakka areas of jiangxi/fujian/guangdong down to the yue regions of guangdong can be viewed as some sort of dialect continuum, all of them display certain similarities and distinctions often blurred between the boundary regions of neighbouring dialect areas

your view that taishanese vocabulary is closer to hakka is correct in the sense that both are more conservative towards retaining middle chinese phonology than guangzhou/hk cantonese did. this distinction may not be that apparent though hundreds of years ago
plain amateur, here to make mistakes, make a fool of ownself, and hopefully learn something in the process

#9 Andy Lau

Andy Lau

    Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 1,390 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Montreal, Canada
  • Interests:Chinese language, ethnicity and overseas Chinese.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Ethnicities,Peoples
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Southern Chinese Dialects and People

Posted 19 January 2009 - 10:47 AM

but there is a city within the "sam yap" area that i have heard of that is poor, it's called Sanshui (Sam Sui).. So the Sam Yap region isn't that prosperous as well, and many people from the Guangzhou area left to Hong Kong during the late 1800 and early 1900 (and many from the Sze Yap area left to HK as well of course, who form about over 33% of the HK population according to the 1960s census - which is why there are so many famous singers, actors/actresses, politician and billionaires who are from the Taishan area)

Therefore i don't know if the Sam Yap region is "the best land" for farming, cuz there are counties like Sanshui who were very poor and if those areas were really rich, there wouldn't be so much of an exodus of them to Hong Kong in the late 1800 throught the mid 1900.

Edited by Andy Lau, 19 January 2009 - 10:53 AM.


#10 qrasy

qrasy

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 4,743 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Physics, Chemistry, Maths, Biology, Languages, Ethnicity, History, etc.
  • Languages spoken:Mandarin Chinese, Indonesian, English, Cantonese
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Han Chinese (Southeastern)
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Other Interests
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Chinese Linguistics

Posted 20 January 2009 - 09:14 AM

Note that in Japanese Kanji pronunciation, there was a large influence of Tang middle Chinese tone.

The "音" (On) in 吳音, 漢音, 唐音 should not refer to "tones" but rather "sound/pronunciation".

i will say minnan will sound closer to mindong because of this.

Another reason, the tones and vowels often use sounds not found in Minnan.
1. We have rising-falling and falling-rising tones.
2. Seems that there are more high tones than low tones. Maybe it sounds more similar to Chaozhou than Xiamen?
But even more similar should be Fuqing. My mother said that it sounds like Fuqing.
3. The vowels used in words like "thh ts" sounds unlike Minnan. "" and "" are more like Cantonese.

however, if we compare cantonese(standard), taishan and minnan then i will choose taishan.

The vowels in Taishanese are conserved better but the initial consonants other than ng are more distorted. (this make some words in Hakka and standard Cantonese look more similar to each other than to Taishan)

Taishanese and Hakka are very similar in terms of Vocabulary, but not grammar. Taishanese grammar is similar to other Cantonese dialects..

Depends on what you refer to by "vocabulary".
There are shared words in Taishanese and Guangzhounese that are not shared by Hakka (only the pronunciations differ).
i.e. there are more cognates between Taishanese and Guangzhounese even though the pronunciations of single characters in Taishanese often look more Hakka.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the liedeliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK

One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas. - Neil deGrasse Tyson

#11 xng

xng

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 4,180 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Languages spoken:English, Cantonese, Minnan, Mandarin, Singlish, Thai
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Han Chinese
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Language
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Chinese Linguistics, Buddhism, East Asian anthropology

Posted 21 January 2009 - 11:26 AM

b)most importantly, there is a rather unique feature (at least among chinese dialects) that occurs in fuzhou called 连音变化 in chinese which causes sound changes to the 2nd character of a 2 character word
eg.

initial sound of the 2nd character of 思想 changes from "s-" to "l-" to become something like "siloun" from original "si suon"

initial sound of the 2nd character of 中国 changes from "k-" to "ng" to become something like "tyn-nguo" from original "tyn kuo"


Interesting. I didn't know that you know the Fuzhou dialect !

Surprisingly, this unique feature also occurs in another min language ie. Pu Xian.

嬸 is pronounced as 'Sim' in Pu Xian (instead of 'Jim' in minnan) but in certain combinations it loses the 'S'. eg.

三嬸 'So Nin' instead of 'Son Sim'. (the S consonant is merged with the soft 'N' ending of first character)

中国 is pronounced as 'Tiong Ngok'. (the k consonant is merged with the 'Ng' ending of first character)

Edited by xng, 21 January 2009 - 11:34 AM.


#12 taiji in motion

taiji in motion

    Grand Mentor (Taishi 太师)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 516 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Any chinese-related stuff
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 22 January 2009 - 12:43 AM

...My own mother is from a Fuzhou family and speaks the dialect, but I don't. I only know it sounds distinctly unlike Hokkien/Minnan.


:huh: How come one does not speak one's mother tongue?...Anyway, when I heard Mindong (both Fuzhou and Fuqing dialects) spoken, I thought they sound very Min like, similar to Minnan or Taiwannese or Putian, but distinctly different from non-Min dialects such as Cantonese or Hakka.

there is a theory that says that the sam-yap people (represented by guangzhou people) came to lingnan from northern china 1st, (that s why they occupied the best lands and plains), the sei-yap people came next (taisan people being one of them) and occupied the next best lands, the hakka people came last and could only occupy the lousy places which are the hilly regions unsuitable for much agriculture. perhaps that simplifies things, but the region stretching from the jiangxi gan dialect areas through then hakka areas of jiangxi/fujian/guangdong down to the yue regions of guangdong can be viewed as some sort of dialect continuum, all of them display certain similarities and distinctions often blurred between the boundary regions of neighbouring dialect areas


If all those migrations occurred more or less at same times. could it be that Sam Yap and Si Yap maybe originally inhabited by different Yue tribes therefore inputting different influences into Middle Chinese language at that time and caused it to develop disctintly in a different direction such as Taishanese Cantonese versus Guangfu Cantonese of Foshan/Nanhai area?

There is a language continuum from southern Jiangxi to Northern Guangdong (Shaoguan area) to Pearl River delta. The Han who migrated to Pearl River Delta first moved to Shaoguan and stayed there a longtime before remigrated down to the delta area. Isn't that a lot of Pearl River delta clans trace their origin from Shaoguan areas which in turn trace their root to Hunan and Jiangxi? So again this stream of migration of same people same language but now resulted in different dialects means that the influence of different local Yue languages has put it mark in today collection of southern Han Chinese dialects.

Regarding the Hakka, they definitely came to Guangdong much later since there is no mention of Hakka word before 16th Century in Guangdong? So how can one to theorize that it could be the dialect that was used in Jin dysty of 4th CentAD? If anything that imperial dialect would be related to that spoken currently in Shanxi province (Jin) area today, a dialect disticnt from Mandarin.
河湖秀水 乱世英雄

#13 qrasy

qrasy

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 4,743 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Physics, Chemistry, Maths, Biology, Languages, Ethnicity, History, etc.
  • Languages spoken:Mandarin Chinese, Indonesian, English, Cantonese
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Han Chinese (Southeastern)
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Other Interests
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Chinese Linguistics

Posted 22 January 2009 - 01:19 AM

三嬸 'So Nin' instead of 'Son Sim'. (the S consonant is merged with the soft 'N' ending of first character)

中国 is pronounced as 'Tiong Ngok'. (the k consonant is merged with the 'Ng' ending of first character)

In Fuzhounese, there are only -ng nasal ending no -n or -m.
And not only the k- will be changed to ng-, there are other examples that can't be called 'merger'.
先生 sing+sang -> singnang
今旦 king+tang -> kingnang
南邊 nang+pieng -> nangmieng

Probably this has something to do with word boundary, i.e. can distinguish things like 炒麵(n) from 炒麵(v+n)

:huh: How come one does not speak one's mother tongue?

I don't speak my mother's language. That is because my father doesn't really speak it so we use Mandarin as the family language.

...Anyway, when I heard Mindong (both Fuzhou and Fuqing dialects) spoken, I thought they sound very Min like, similar to Minnan or Taiwannese or Putian, but distinctly different from non-Min dialects such as Cantonese or Hakka.

I don't think it's similar to Minnan of Xiamen, just by considering the tonal pitches. Perhaps it's more similar to Minnan from elsewhere.

Regarding the Hakka, they definitely came to Guangdong much later since there is no mention of Hakka word before 16th Century in Guangdong? So how can one to theorize that it could be the dialect that was used in Jin dysty of 4th CentAD? If anything that imperial dialect would be related to that spoken currently in Shanxi province (Jin) area today, a dialect disticnt from Mandarin.

The theory is that they bring the old language with them, and then the original homelands' language mutate.
If they came on 16th century, indeed some would like to theorize that they bring a 16th century language. But following the same line, if people speaking Jin don't move too much, will it preserve anything from before 20th century?

Actually, what I think is that, the dynasty language on Tang or before is not similar to any modern dialect.

Edited by qrasy, 22 January 2009 - 01:33 AM.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the liedeliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK

One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas. - Neil deGrasse Tyson

#14 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 22 January 2009 - 03:34 AM

How come one does not speak one's mother tongue?


Because, in obedience to my dear government's language policies, I grew up in the 1980s learning only Mandarin/Guoyu/Putonghua.

So how can one to theorize that it could be the dialect that was used in Jin dysty of 4th CentAD? If anything that imperial dialect would be related to that spoken currently in Shanxi province (Jin) area today, a dialect disticnt from Mandarin.


The Jin dynasty of 266-420 has no special connection to the Jin (Shanxi) region. It's just that its founder originally had the fief Duke of Jin. I don't think the Shanxi dialect is even that old.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#15 lifezard

lifezard

    Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 1,296 posts
  • Location:@?
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History

Posted 23 January 2009 - 01:14 AM

:huh: How come one does not speak one's mother tongue?...Anyway, when I heard Mindong (both Fuzhou and Fuqing dialects) spoken, I thought they sound very Min like, similar to Minnan or Taiwannese or Putian, but distinctly different from non-Min dialects such as Cantonese or Hakka.


yun meant his mother's mother tongue, it really depends on the environment you grow up, if you have parents that are of 2 diffifernt language backgrounds and living in singapore, you are quite likely to pick up mandarin or hokkien instead of your parent s dialect instead

Regarding the Hakka, they definitely came to Guangdong much later since there is no mention of Hakka word before 16th Century in Guangdong? So how can one to theorize that it could be the dialect that was used in Jin dysty of 4th CentAD? If anything that imperial dialect would be related to that spoken currently in Shanxi province (Jin) area today, a dialect disticnt from Mandarin.


the name 'Hakka' might be relatively new but that does not people speakin the hakka dialect were not already there, there are experts who argue that the term 'hakka' is used as a term relative to 'punti' and i partly subscribe to their views .. certainly, the hakkas were not 'latecomers' in southern jiangxi, western fujian n n.e. guangdong .. , even if they are they did not necessary have to come directly from the central plains region.

Actually, what I think is that, the dynasty language on Tang or before is not similar to any modern dialect.


agreed

Interesting. I didn't know that you know the Fuzhou dialect !

Surprisingly, this unique feature also occurs in another min language ie. Pu Xian.

嬸 is pronounced as 'Sim' in Pu Xian (instead of 'Jim' in minnan) but in certain combinations it loses the 'S'. eg.

三嬸 'So Nin' instead of 'Son Sim'. (the S consonant is merged with the soft 'N' ending of first character)

中国 is pronounced as 'Tiong Ngok'. (the k consonant is merged with the 'Ng' ending of first character)


no, i dun, i quote them from an article, but i had know that the fuzhou has this feature b4. interesting to know that puxian has it too, puxian or hinghwa seems mildly more comprehensible to me though



The Jin dynasty of 266-420 has no special connection to the Jin (Shanxi) region. It's just that its founder originally had the fief Duke of Jin. I don't think the Shanxi dialect is even that old.


but, the original jin region (of pre-qin) does not really equate to shanxi too, as the actual jin lies in the southern shanxi region around the traditonal henei area, the irony is that majority of this region is not inside the jin dialect area.

Edited by lifezard, 23 January 2009 - 01:16 AM.

plain amateur, here to make mistakes, make a fool of ownself, and hopefully learn something in the process




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users