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Relationship between Tai-Kradai, Austro-asiatic, and Austronesian


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#1 soniez

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 08:27 PM

In the past, some linguists have linked Austronesian and Austro-asiatic together to form the Austric family. There were also some who linked Austronesian and Tai-Kradai to form the Austro-Tai family. I'm speculating whether TK and AA are a split of the Austronesian language family since I came across some cases where the TK and AA words seem to be a split from the Austronesian word.

eat
- Austronesian: *kaʔen
- Tai-Kradai: *kVn
- Vietnamese (Austro-asiatic): ăn (~ ʔen)
(Starostine made the proto-Austric form: *ʔVn)


eye
- Austronesian: mata
- Austro-asiatic: mat
- Tai-Kradai: ta

water
- Austronesian: Danum
- AA: diak
- TK: nam

So is there any relationship between these three?

#2 qrasy

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 09:18 PM

In the past, some linguists have linked Austronesian and Austro-asiatic together to form the Austric family. There were also some who linked Austronesian and Tai-Kradai to form the Austro-Tai family. I'm speculating whether TK and AA are a split of the Austronesian language family since I came across some cases where the TK and AA words seem to be a split from the Austronesian word.

It's likely that they are related, though I am not sure how closely. If I remember correctly Sagart classify Tai-Kadai is a subgroup of AA whereas Austroasiatic is more like a sister group. I guess I saw it around here: http://s6.zetaboards...topic/528746/1/
Anyway, this topic somehow reminds me of Driem's article. http://www.eastling....paper/Driem.pdf

eye
- Austronesian: mata
- Austro-asiatic: mat
- Tai-Kradai: ta

Actually the Tai-Kadai words has a much greater diversity than simply "ta". Some uses "pla" and some "nda", apparently pointing to *mta (double consonant initial).
This one has many look-alikes, including Chinese 目, Japanese me and Egyptian[?] mati.
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#3 soniez

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 09:33 PM

Some other similar cases, though they're not split cases

(the forms presented here are the proto forms reconstructed from Starostine website)

Mountain/hill
- Austronesian: *buntul
- AA: *dʔual
- TK: to:j.A

Earth/soil/land
- Austronesian: *daReq, *buRtaq
- AA: *tɛj
(Vietnamese: đất)
- TK: nam (?), not similar obviously

Moon/month
- Austronesia: *bulaN
- Vietnamese (AA): trăng ~ blăng (tr~bl)
- Zhuang-Tai: *ʔblɨan.A
Vietnamese tháng 'month' is probably from lang, like in Thai, month is dan (~ blian)

Sun, day
- Austronesian: *-NaR 'sun, light'
- AA: *ŋaj 'day, sun'
- TK: *ŋwan.A 'day'

Sky
- Austronesian: no data
- Vietnamese (Vietic): trời ~ blời
- TK: *ʔboN.A 'sky, above' (Siamese: ʔbon.A, Tay: bon.1, Bouyei: mɨn.1, Wuming Zhuang: bɨn.1)

Rain, drizzle, precipitation
- Austronesian: *Rabun
- Zhuang, Tai: *f[ɨ]n.A, *mho:n.5 (Longzhou Zhuang: -mo:n.5, Wuming Zhuang: mon.5, Lakkia: mhun.1)
- AA: *mɨa

Oh Vietnamese has "mưa phùn" for drizzle. I speculate whether it's a combination of mon and fin in TK.

Edited by soniez, 19 October 2009 - 09:38 PM.


#4 soniez

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 09:54 PM

Flower:
- Austronesian: *bVŋa
- Vietnamese (Vietic): bng
- TK: ʔblo:k (????)
(Hmong-Mien: *bja:ŋ.A)
I thought the -k ending in TK made it kinda dissimilar to other forms at first but then I saw another similar case.

Forehead:
- Austronesian: no data
- Vietnamese and other Vietic: trn (blan, tlan); Other AA have something like paliang
(- Hmong-Mien: *blVŋ.A forehead)
- TK: *phlak (forehead)

If there's another similar case, we can see the relationship between -ŋ and -k

#5 One time poster

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 12:23 AM

Some of the words which are supposed to be Thai or proto Tai-Kadai seem strange to me.

For example:

Sky
- Austronesian: no data
- Vietnamese (Vietic): trời ~ blời
- TK: *ʔboN.A 'sky, above' (Siamese: ʔbon.A, Tay: bon.1, Bouyei: mɨn.1, Wuming Zhuang: bɨn.1

The Siamese, Kham Muang and Lao pronunciation for Sky is "Fa" or in some dialects it is "Pa". A common title for a Tai ruler is "Chao Fa". Lord of the Sky or Heavenly Lord. Bon simply means above or on top of.

#6 mrclub

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 03:40 AM

isnt Tai-Kradai languages under Sino-Tibetian family ?
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#7 soniez

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 06:06 AM

Some of the words which are supposed to be Thai or proto Tai-Kadai seem strange to me.

For example:

The Siamese, Kham Muang and Lao pronunciation for Sky is "Fa" or in some dialects it is "Pa". A common title for a Tai ruler is "Chao Fa". Lord of the Sky or Heavenly Lord. Bon simply means above or on top of.

These data aren't only from Thai and Lao but also from Zhuang, Buyi, Li...They take the "most common" form to be the proto-form I guess.

Languages within the TK family generally seem to be closer to each other than languages within other families.


isnt Tai-Kradai languages under Sino-Tibetian family ?

That classification is only used by Chinese linguists. Linguists of other nationalities put TK on its own.

Generally I think AA family shares more similarities of basic words with ST than TK family does, such as "land" 土 *thāʔ (compare to Vietnamese đất), "water" 水 *tujʔ (compare to AA *dʔɨak), "elder sister" 姊 *ćǝjʔ (compare to Vietnamese chị and other AA *cVj), "stone, rock" Chinese: 石 *diak, Tibetan: rdo (compare to Vietnamese đ). Though some might think of these words as loans or coincidences.

#8 mrclub

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 06:23 AM

That classification is only used by Chinese linguists. Linguists of other nationalities put TK on its own.

Generally I think AA family shares more similarities of basic words with ST than TK family does, such as "land" 土 *thāʔ (compare to Vietnamese đất), "water" 水 *tujʔ (compare to AA *dʔɨak), "elder sister" 姊 *ćǝjʔ (compare to Vietnamese chị and other AA *cVj), "stone, rock" Chinese: 石 *diak, Tibetan: rdo (compare to Vietnamese đ). Though some might think of these words as loans or coincidences.


hmm...

土 -- thāʔ (Guangzhou Cantonese -- tou, Teochew -- tou, Singapore Hokkien -- tor)
水 -- tujʔ (Guangzhou Cantonese -- soi, Teochew -- zui, Singapore Hokkien -- zui)
姊 -- ćǝjʔ (Guangzhou Cantonese -- ???, Teochew -- zeh, Singapore Hokkien -- ji)
石 -- diak (Guangzhou Cantonese -- sek, Teochew -- ziout, Singapore Hokkien -- ziou)
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#9 soniez

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 07:20 AM

hmm...

土 -- thāʔ (Guangzhou Cantonese -- tou, Teochew -- tou, Singapore Hokkien -- tor)
水 -- tujʔ (Guangzhou Cantonese -- soi, Teochew -- zui, Singapore Hokkien -- zui)
姊 -- ćǝjʔ (Guangzhou Cantonese -- ???, Teochew -- zeh, Singapore Hokkien -- ji)
石 -- diak (Guangzhou Cantonese -- sek, Teochew -- ziout, Singapore Hokkien -- ziou)

Those are Old Chinese reconstruction. As we know, no Chinese dialect preserves Old Chinese well.

#10 mrclub

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 07:50 AM

Those are Old Chinese reconstruction. As we know, no Chinese dialect preserves Old Chinese well.


i see...dont say Chinese dialect...even Middle Chinese differs greatly from Old Chinese
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#11 One time poster

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 11:44 PM

These data aren't only from Thai and Lao but also from Zhuang, Buyi, Li...They take the "most common" form to be the proto-form I guess.

Languages within the TK family generally seem to be closer to each other than languages within other families.





I know. The example I gave it specifically meantioned that it was "Siamese". I can speak "Siamese" and thus posted what I posted earlier. Look at my original quote. Therefore it makes me question how authoritative the sources are.

#12 aocitizen

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 05:38 AM

In recent years, a definite relationship has been found between Tai-Kradai and Austronesian. Apparently the two were once one language, spoken in Fukien. Then some of the speakers migrated to Taiwan, where they mixed with Papuans. These became the Austronesians, while those who remained on the mainland became the Tai-Kradai. Similarly, Austroasiatic is more distantly related to these two; when Hmong-Mien is included as a separate branch, all of these comprise the Austric superfamily. Interestingly, the Ainu language of Japan is now also thought of as an Austric language. I think the Austric language family probably had an ancient point of origin near Lake Baikal. In a wave of migrations, the Austric peoples became the main populations of eastern and southeast Asia, before the arrival of the Sino-Tibetans from the southwest.The Austric languages penetrated all the way to India, where Munda is still spoken. Hmong-Mien was the first branch to diverge in the north. Tai-Kradai, Austronesian, and Austroasiatic diverged away from each other in southern China. Today speakers of these languages are mostly found in Southeast Asia. The two branches of Sino-Tibetan, Tibeto-Burman and Sinitic, are significantly different from each other. Sinitic must have arisen in Yunnan, when Tibeto-Burman and Austroasiatic peoples amalgamated to form the nucleus of the Old Chinese people, the Huaxia. The only other Sinitic language, Bai, is still found in Yunnan. Before 2000 BCE, the Huaxia made a monumental migration north to the Huang He river valley, where they conquered and blended with the indigenous Dongyi people. Some Dongyi fled south to escape the invaders and became the Hmong-Mien. Other Dongyi remained independent in Shandong until they were finally conquered by the Zhou Dynasty around 500 BCE. The preceding Shang Dynasty is said by many to have been founded by Dongyi nobles, while the still earlier Xia Dynasty were obviously the original rulers of the Huaxia. The Zhou themselves came from the far west of China, and may have arisen from the Rong people, who had Altaic and Tocharian blood. When Shandong was conquered, many Dongyi fled across the "clear water" (what the Hmong call the sea in their legends) to Korea, where they provided an Austric substrate to that otherwise Altaic language. Shortly thereafter, some mixed Tungusic-Austrics from southernmost Korea, who today are called the Yayoi, invaded the Japanese archipelago. They united themselves with the Austronesian Kumaso, the Austroasiatic Yezo (Jomon), and the paleo-Caucasian Ainu to form the present-day Japanese nationality. We can therefore see that Austric has also had a profound influence on other language families; they are the reason why Korean and Japanese are not fully Altaic languages, and why Chinese is so different from Tibetan. The language families spread far to the east and west until they became the dominant languages of Southeast Asia and the Pacific islands.

Edited by aocitizen, 23 January 2011 - 06:00 AM.


#13 mohistManiac

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 08:38 AM

The Hmong or Miao or Yao were already existing as part of the earlier Austro/Tai/Asiatic family so how can Dongyi that fled due to invasion by the Zhou go on to become the Hmong people unless they were going to absorb the native Yangtze basin peoples? By any chance are you talking about the theory that Hmong clothing and art bears lots of resemblance to Shang dynasty art and patterns and therefore because the Shang in many cases have been characterized to be almost certainly Dongyi (same or approximate regions) that somehow the Hmong must have descended from the Shang and Dongyi?
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#14 SkllZ

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 08:39 AM

In recent years, a definite relationship has been found between Tai-Kradai and Austronesian. Apparently the two were once one language, spoken in Fukien. Then some of the speakers migrated to Taiwan, where they mixed with Papuans. These became the Austronesians, while those who remained on the mainland became the Tai-Kradai. Similarly, Austroasiatic is more distantly related to these two; when Hmong-Mien is included as a separate branch, all of these comprise the Austric superfamily. Interestingly, the Ainu language of Japan is now also thought of as an Austric language. I think the Austric language family probably had an ancient point of origin near Lake Baikal. In a wave of migrations, the Austric peoples became the main populations of eastern and southeast Asia, before the arrival of the Sino-Tibetans from the southwest.The Austric languages penetrated all the way to India, where Munda is still spoken. Hmong-Mien was the first branch to diverge in the north. Tai-Kradai, Austronesian, and Austroasiatic diverged away from each other in southern China. Today speakers of these languages are mostly found in Southeast Asia. The two branches of Sino-Tibetan, Tibeto-Burman and Sinitic, are significantly different from each other. Sinitic must have arisen in Yunnan, when Tibeto-Burman and Austroasiatic peoples amalgamated to form the nucleus of the Old Chinese people, the Huaxia. The only other Sinitic language, Bai, is still found in Yunnan. Before 2000 BCE, the Huaxia made a monumental migration north to the Huang He river valley, where they conquered and blended with the indigenous Dongyi people. Some Dongyi fled south to escape the invaders and became the Hmong-Mien. Other Dongyi remained independent in Shandong until they were finally conquered by the Zhou Dynasty around 500 BCE. The preceding Shang Dynasty is said by many to have been founded by Dongyi nobles, while the still earlier Xia Dynasty were obviously the original rulers of the Huaxia. The Zhou themselves came from the far west of China, and may have arisen from the Rong people, who had Altaic and Tocharian blood. When Shandong was conquered, many Dongyi fled across the "clear water" (what the Hmong call the sea in their legends) to Korea, where they provided an Austric substrate to that otherwise Altaic language. Shortly thereafter, some mixed Tungusic-Austrics from southernmost Korea, who today are called the Yayoi, invaded the Japanese archipelago. They united themselves with the Austronesian Kumaso, the Austroasiatic Yezo (Jomon), and the paleo-Caucasian Ainu to form the present-day Japanese nationality. We can therefore see that Austric has also had a profound influence on other language families; they are the reason why Korean and Japanese are not fully Altaic languages, and why Chinese is so different from Tibetan. The language families spread far to the east and west until they became the dominant languages of Southeast Asia and the Pacific islands.


So you mean when the ancient people migrated to new land and mixed with another groups, the two languages influenced each others and formed a new language?


hmm...

土 -- thāʔ (Guangzhou Cantonese -- tou, Teochew -- tou, Singapore Hokkien -- tor)
水 -- tujʔ (Guangzhou Cantonese -- soi, Teochew -- zui, Singapore Hokkien -- zui)
姊 -- ćǝjʔ (Guangzhou Cantonese -- ???, Teochew -- zeh, Singapore Hokkien -- ji)
石 -- diak (Guangzhou Cantonese -- sek, Teochew -- ziout, Singapore Hokkien -- ziou)

Those are Old Chinese reconstruction. As we know, no Chinese dialect preserves Old Chinese well.


I know this is old but it's interesting. I don't know why Chinese dialects couldn't preserves the old Chinese but other countries can in some extend. For example in Sino-Vietnamese. 土 is thổ, 水 is thủy , 姊 is chị, 石 is đ.
I'm not sure about Sino-Korean or Sino-Japanese.

#15 xng

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 10:55 AM

The two branches of Sino-Tibetan, Tibeto-Burman and Sinitic, are significantly different from each other. Sinitic must have arisen in Yunnan, when Tibeto-Burman and Austroasiatic peoples amalgamated to form the nucleus of the Old Chinese people, the Huaxia. The only other Sinitic language, Bai, is still found in Yunnan. Before 2000 BCE, the Huaxia made a monumental migration north to the Huang He river valley, where they conquered and blended with the indigenous Dongyi people.


This is pure speculation.

The sinitic and tibeto-burman people originated from Kunlun mountain in Qinghai and NOT yunnan.

http://www.chinacult...ntent_34924.htm

If they originated from yunnan, wouldn't the mekong river or yangtze river make for the earliest sinitic civilisation as they are the nearest to yunnan ?

Instead it was the yellow river which is closest to the Kunlun mountain. The sinitic branch migrated east while the tibetan branch migrated south to tibet. Qinghai is still very close to the earliest civilisation of the Han chinese which is near the yellow river which I believe is modern day shaanxi province.

Migration to burma is only a recent event.

Edited by xng, 23 January 2011 - 11:02 AM.





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