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Hanfu, Hanbok, Kimono


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#1 Marinka

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 03:15 AM

Good day everyone!
Ive just come across a statement that despite Hanbok and Kimono and other South-East Asia countries national clothes have a few similarities from original Hanfu, all of them still have wide sleeves and right lapel (右衽)as borrowed from it.Is that so? And btw what other countries' clothes have been influenced by Chinese Hanfu?

#2 SNK_1408

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 11:21 PM

Good day everyone!
I’ve just come across a statement that despite Hanbok and Kimono and other South-East Asia countries national clothes have a few similarities from original Hanfu, all of them still have wide sleeves and right lapel (右衽)as borrowed from it.Is that so? And btw what other countries' clothes have been influenced by Chinese Hanfu?


May be Hanfu and Kimono is similar in terms of wide sleeves and lapel, but not Hanbok.
Certainly certain designs, fashions, accessories and textiles/fabrics are influenced.

I rather see Kimono does follows all the highlights from Hanfu but Hanbok remains looking different.

Hanfu
Posted Image

Kimono
Posted Image

Hanbok
Posted Image

Edited by SNK_1408, 19 November 2009 - 11:40 PM.

역사를 보면 결국 힘있는 자가 힘없는 자를 정복하고 약탈하는 것입니다.
역사를 왜곡하는 민족은 반드시 멸망한다.
Posted Image

#3 Lenn

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 12:31 AM

From what i know, Japanese Kimono based off Hanfu and localized, as well as old Vietnamese clothing/Court dresses (not aodai).

Hanfu is uncommon in Modern China (although that's changing at the moment), so far most of what you see online are made by commoners or produced cheaply&hastily in a factory like the one above.

And since i'm a bit bias towards Hanfu i will throw in a picture of Hanfu Quju (曲裾)xD excuse the hair cut>_<

Posted Image

#4 soniez

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 02:17 AM

From what i know, Japanese Kimono based off Hanfu and localized, as well as old Vietnamese clothing/Court dresses (not aodai).

Vietnamese Court clothes of the Nguyễn Dynasty were just a royal version of o di (called o Mệnh Phụ) and o di itself was based on the court clothes of previous dynasties.



Modern (20th - 21st century)
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Nguyen dynasty 19th-20th century
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(the following pictures are history-accurate, no exaggeration on the elegance of the clothes)

15th - 18th century
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13th-14th century (Ly/Tran dynasty)
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two things that help me distinguish Viet clothes from Chinese clothes are: 1)the sleeves, sleeves of Viet clothes aren't excessively wide like sleeves of Chinese clothes; 2) the slits; Viet clothes always have slits at waist, Chinese clothes usually have either no slit or a slit below the waist or a slit below the armpits (above the waist).

#5 sg_han

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 07:26 AM

May be Hanfu and Kimono is similar in terms of wide sleeves and lapel, but not Hanbok.
Certainly certain designs, fashions, accessories and textiles/fabrics are influenced.

I rather see Kimono does follows all the highlights from Hanfu but Hanbok remains looking different.

Hanfu
Posted Image

Kimono
Posted Image

Hanbok
Posted Image



That is because the jeogori has been shorten dramatically over the past century. The jeogori when Chosun was founded is much longer and is similar to that of the Hanfu/Kimono. Moreover the goreum wasn't this long in the early stage. it grew longer with time though it has once again been shortened in modern times.
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#6 Lenn

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 01:05 PM

Vietnamese Court clothes of the Nguyễn Dynasty were just a royal version of áo dài (called Áo Mệnh Phụ) and áo dài itself was based on the court clothes of previous dynasties.

two things that help me distinguish Viet clothes from Chinese clothes are: 1)the sleeves, sleeves of Viet clothes aren't excessively wide like sleeves of Chinese clothes; 2) the slits; Viet clothes always have slits at waist, Chinese clothes usually have either no slit or a slit below the waist or a slit below the armpits (above the waist).


you can't expect me to believe what you said by posting drama pictures right? got some old paintings?

Edited by Lenn, 22 November 2009 - 01:13 PM.


#7 soniez

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 05:20 PM

you can't expect me to believe what you said by posting drama pictures right? got some old paintings?

There is a documentary series in Vietnamese about Vietnamese dress through different periods and dynasties. The clothes and hairstyles presented in the drama and the documentary are the same. I'll try to find if they have this documentary series on the internet and show you.

As far as you ask for paintings, I can only find this for now. The dress is an 18th century court-dress, still look familiar to many Vietnamese.
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And here is the "peasant version" of the above dress (darker color)
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Another style with over-lapping lapels
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Not sure if this helps but this is a 3000-year-old statue of a Viet woman. The dress has non-overlapping lapels secured by a sack.
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Statue of princess Huyen Tran - a Tran dynasty woman. Her dress still has that similar non-overlapping lapels secured by a sack
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Statue of a woman in a temple build several centuries ago
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Water-puppet statues
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#8 SNK_1408

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 06:35 PM

That is because the jeogori has been shorten dramatically over the past century. The jeogori when Chosun was founded is much longer and is similar to that of the Hanfu/Kimono. Moreover the goreum wasn't this long in the early stage. it grew longer with time though it has once again been shortened in modern times.


irrelevant to talk about Jeogori/goreum when referring to wide sleeves and right side lapel.
There is Confucian dress code in Korea does follow similar design with Hanfu, but they were only worm during special occasion by aristocrats and nobles.

Also, please don't get confused with court dresses and commoner's clothing.

In terms of court dress, even Mongolian, Manchu, Japanese, Korean and Japanese follows Chinese court dress codes something like European Renaissance era dresses, all European kingdoms and empires had similar or identical style of clothing.
역사를 보면 결국 힘있는 자가 힘없는 자를 정복하고 약탈하는 것입니다.
역사를 왜곡하는 민족은 반드시 멸망한다.
Posted Image

#9 sg_han

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 12:24 AM

irrelevant to talk about Jeogori/goreum when referring to wide sleeves and right side lapel.
There is Confucian dress code in Korea does follow similar design with Hanfu, but they were only worm during special occasion by aristocrats and nobles.

Also, please don't get confused with court dresses and commoner's clothing.

In terms of court dress, even Mongolian, Manchu, Japanese, Korean and Japanese follows Chinese court dress codes something like European Renaissance era dresses, all European kingdoms and empires had similar or identical style of clothing.


:rolleyes: Oh state why it is irrelevant. And provide pictures of your supposed commoner clothing that is "NATIVE" to Korea.
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#10 SNK_1408

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 07:43 PM

:rolleyes: Oh state why it is irrelevant. And provide pictures of your supposed commoner clothing that is "NATIVE" to Korea.


You won't see Hanbok in anywhere in the world but in Korea.
Commoner's Hanbok doesn't have wide sleeves and right lapel.

Kimono, Hanbok, Hanfu - Now look at the difference.
Kimono have wide sleeves & narrowed skirt, Hanbok have narrowed sleeves & wide skirt
But Hanfu have wider sleeves and wide skirt

Kimono worn by Mao Asada
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Hanbok worn by Yuna Kim
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Hanfu
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Edited by SNK_1408, 23 November 2009 - 07:44 PM.

역사를 보면 결국 힘있는 자가 힘없는 자를 정복하고 약탈하는 것입니다.
역사를 왜곡하는 민족은 반드시 멸망한다.
Posted Image

#11 sg_han

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 09:19 AM

wow! so the koreans just came out with a new form of costume after the fall of goryeo? hanbok was not derived from hanfu?
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#12 Eidolon

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 03:10 PM

Commoner clothing in all three countries (China, Japan, Korea) differed from aristocratic clothing. Commoner clothing was usually short-sleeved, short-panted, and relatively coarse & simple. It's unclear where this style arose, but humans have been wearing clothes since the Neolithic period...

#13 Quokka

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 05:36 PM

But surely there is a difference between modern and older hanbok?

eg. 14th century mural from the tomb of Bak Ik
Posted ImagePosted Image
(Source)
Certainly, their sleeve-cuffs appear wider than on modern jeogori, and they also lack the curve on the underside of the sleeve.

In general, if you look at artwork from the 18th century on, the clothing of commoners seemed to retain the wider sleeves (because then they could be pulled back or rolled up when working?) while the ultra-fashionable began to wear much tighter sleeves.
Posted Image
by Cho Yeong-Seok, 1681-1761. (Source)
vs.

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by Danwon. (Source)

With that said, what fascinates me is the very different construction between the hanfu, kimono, and hanbok.
The kosode (when wearing kimono) largely seems to have stayed the same. Certainly, the widths of fabric used for making one has varied over time, but the basic construction largely remains the same.
I will admit, I've never seen any extant or reconstructed hanfu up close, but it seems to be constructed differently once again. The seams in photos of people wearing shenyi don't line up where I would expect them to.
Earlier jeogori (top of hanbok) vary yet again, with gores and overlapping panels, that changed over the centuries.

eg. 15th century jeogori (source)
Posted Image

I think it is fair to say, that even if originally hanfu, hanbok and kimono were derived from the one fashion, that they certainly have all changed it in different ways to make another style of dress.

#14 Lenn

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 03:08 PM

To soniez:
A bit messy, can't see clearly and most picture are still modern made (the ones in the drama resemble more of a loosely Tang Dynasty clothing or Ming Dynasty she-nv though @_@. Hope you can find the documentary Vid ;)

I think it is fair to say, that even if originally hanfu, hanbok and kimono were derived from the one fashion, that they certainly have all changed it in different ways to make another style of dress.


You have to know, there isn't a single representative of Hanfu unlike Hanbok or Kimono. Mainly because there are many different kind of Hanfu sets depending on Social Classes and Dynasties, you will see different Han clothings in each dynasty. You can go research it up but most likely you have to understand Chinese texts. Recommend www.ming-yiguan.com/ or Photo Albums at Baidu Han Clothing Album

Edited by Lenn, 29 December 2009 - 10:00 PM.


#15 Auxiliare

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 01:28 PM

wow! so the koreans just came out with a new form of costume after the fall of goryeo? hanbok was not derived from hanfu?

I wouldn't say that the Korean Hanbok wasn't derived from the Hanfu. Hanfu actually changed quite a bit depending on the dynasty. I don't have paintings but these are some examples of Hanfu that I found that look awfully alike Hanbok:

emSDILD.jpg

lWsYQOu.jpgROonYen.jpg0sL2RnY.jpg

KZrmK9Y.png

 

You have distinctive elements that are still there: the A-shaped skirt, short sleeves and 2 separate halves.
Now, I'm no expert in history, but the internet (wiki) did say that Hanfu actually started out with shorter sleeves before slowly evolving into longer sleeves. 
 

My personal opinion is that fashion changes over time, so there isn't one set of clothing that lasts though the dynasty without changing, just like how our modern day fashion changes drastically as well. So I wouldn't say blatantly that Hanbok is completely unrelated to Hanfu.

[once again, sorry for not having any paintings ; n ; ]

 

---------------------
I lied, I found some paintings :D

XgmOJD2.jpg

EpVP63W.jpgxHf1Hfq.jpg
 

These are from the Tang dynasty


Edited by Auxiliare, 17 February 2014 - 02:04 PM.

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