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Modern-day Koreans not entirely descended from Altaic-Tungusic tribes


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#31 Karakhan

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 02:12 PM

The original Ainoids were not negroid or looked like modern-day Australian aboriginals. They look like very hairy Uralics. Though I do believe that the original homeland of the Ainu was somewhere in the southern Asian regions south of the Ryukyu Islands.


its been posted in this forum multiple times already. Several peer review journals have shown that the Ainu are Mongoloid. The reason why they are associated with non Mongoloid groups is because of 1. they are from the Old Mongoloid group, not the newer recent ones in which most East Asians share a common descent with, and 2. The romantacism of European anthropologists who wanted to see a lost Caucasian or Israeli tribe in the Ainu because of their unique features. There is nothing Uralic, Australian, or South East Asian about them period. Language, culture, and genetics has shown this.
the closest affinity they have with any other ethnic groups are with other Okhotsk ethnicities and the Jomon.

#32 kagemusha

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:03 PM

its been posted in this forum multiple times already. Several peer review journals have shown that the Ainu are Mongoloid. The reason why they are associated with non Mongoloid groups is because of 1. they are from the Old Mongoloid group, not the newer recent ones in which most East Asians share a common descent with, and 2. The romantacism of European anthropologists who wanted to see a lost Caucasian or Israeli tribe in the Ainu because of their unique features. There is nothing Uralic, Australian, or South East Asian about them period. Language, culture, and genetics has shown this.
the closest affinity they have with any other ethnic groups are with other Okhotsk ethnicities and the Jomon.


Well, a Japanese research team also concluded that the Ainu genetic makeup is closest to the Quechua Indians of Bolivia. However, we know that there is no link between the Ainu and Quechua.

I guess what you're saying is that the Ainu possibly came from somewhere in the Kamchatka region of present-day Russia. However, scholars also have concluded that the pre-Yayoi tribes were largely of Australoid origin (for example the Kumaso and Hayato). So, in the early years of Japan's ancient history, there were three major types of groups: the Jomon tribes from south-east Asia, the Ainu from eastern Russia, and the Yayoi/Yamato from the Korean peninsula (ultimately from the Tungoids of Siberia).

#33 kagemusha

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 01:10 AM

The original purpose of this thread was to dispel the myths surrounding the origins of modern Koreans. First, against the Altaiphiles who believe that Koreans are a pure Altaic-Tungusic race practically no different from the Evenk (Tungus), Buryats (Mongols), and Yakuts (Turkics) in Siberia. Second, against the Sinophiles who believe that Koreans are predominantly a south-east Asian race no different from the Hmong-Miens or Tai-Kadais. Both are wrong since Koreans are a solid 50/50 mix, as a whole, between the northern mongoloid elements and the southern mongoloid elements (though there are variations within the peninsula among individuals of what percentage is of northern and southern genetic composition). The same goes for the Japanese, they are also neither entirely Tungusic or entirely Australoid.

#34 Karakhan

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 11:59 AM

^ indeed the topic has diverted quite far from the original question. I've cleaned up this thread so it stays on the topic of Korean descent.

#35 kagemusha

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 01:34 PM

Koreans definitely did not come from Austronesian/Austric/Austro-Asiatic populations. Genetic evidence suggests that Koreans have little to no Austronesian admixture. And there were immigrants from Vietnam during Joseon.

You do get variations in phenotype in Korea, but typical facial features exist for every ethnicity, and it's quite easy to tell the difference between a Korean, Chinese and Japanese.

Remember the populations that inhabited today's Shandong area were not Han Chinese, but Dongyi (who were considered to be "eastern barbarians" by the Chinese- which means the Chinese weren't part of this stock). Then that area was under China's rule. Han Chinese were actually admixed with people from Southeast Asia. That's why genetic studies show that Han Chinese are the most Austronesian, while Koreans are the least.

I read an article once that stated the Koreans belong to a so-called "Koreanic-Manchu" type, whereas Japanese are mixed 50/50 with the Koreanic-Manchu and Malay-Polynesian type. The Koreanic-Manchu type existed in Japan only among the upper class. And the Chinese belong to the Malay-Polynesian type mostly. It was a pretty old research article on anthropology of the Japanese conducted by American anthropologists.

Proto-Korean populations were majority from Siberia and Dongyi. And all Koreans have about the same genetic structure. And remember Altaic people are diverse too. Evenks are different to Yakuts, who are different to Koreans.


Well, Scholar, how do you explain the DNA graph above where it shows that modern Koreans have about half south-east Asian genetic stock? Is that graph lying or what? Btw, the graph also shows that modern Japanese have more Altaic genes than Koreans. Go figure that out too.

#36 Chanpuru

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 04:32 AM

Typical Okinawans
Posted Image


what makes you think he is Okinawan? The page belongs to Kirby Fukunaga. Fukunaga is a Japanese surname, not really an Okinawan one. Based on his page.. he's a guy from Hawaii who visited different areas of Japan including Okinawa. Although he could be mixed. A comprehensive list of Okinawan surnames can be found here http://ja.wikipedia....縄県の名字

Secondly the furthest north Austronesian speakers could've went was to the southern Ryukyus (Yaeyama region). As I've said countless times, pottery similar to the style used in Taiwan and the Philippines were only found on the southern most islands, but not the northern half. This is because of a large sea gap between Miyako and Okinawa Islands that could not be crossed until technological improvements far later in history.

Edited by Chanpuru, 31 January 2011 - 04:36 AM.


#37 Chanpuru

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 04:59 AM

Again the reason why Japanese usually don't look like the Northern Asian type is because the Jomon are anthropologically classed as Australoids.


since when were Jomon classified as Australoid?

Its amazing how some who are the least knowledgeable about the Ainu or Ryukyuans, seem to some how know their history.

Please read this article on Jomon cranial sizes incomparison with others in Asia:
http://onlinelibrary...970203/abstract

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Sample group of pre-historic cranials sampled for this article

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Fig. 3. The splits graph for the distance based on the R-matrix of 20 nonmetric cranial traits recorded for 18 prehistoric population samples from around the world.

its also important to acknowledge that on mainland Asia, migrations from SE.Asia went all the way north to Siberia as this article states.

#38 Chanpuru

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 05:21 AM

and another one on the Ainu to keep clearing up some misconception about them being Australoid simply because of a few old pictures (when there are plenty of recent pictures in color).

http://www.ingentaco...000002/art00004

Analysis of HLA genes and haplotypes in Ainu (from Hokkaido, northern Japan) supports the premise that they descent from Upper Paleolithic populations of East Asia

Authors: Bannai, M.1; Ohashi, J.2; Harihara, S.3; Takahashi, Y.1; Juji, T.4; Omoto, K.5; Tokunaga, K.2

Source: Tissue Antigens, Volume 55, Number 2, 1 February 2000 , pp. 128-139(12)

Genetic distances between Ainu and other populations
Population Groupa Genetic distanceb
Ryukyuan As 0.149
Japanese As 0.200
Chinese Koreans As 0.271
Toba Am 0.271
South Koreans As 0.291
Man As 0.324
Taiwan Bunun As 0.326
Mongolians As 0.328
Buyi As 0.346
Wichi Am 0.349
Singapore Chinese As 0.356
Buryat As 0.357
Han As 0.363
Thai Dai Dam As 0.376
Kazakh As 0.412
Thai Dai Lue As 0.428
Asian Indians As 0.430
Bari Am 0.431
Kaingang Am 0.442
Tlingit Am 0.450
Romanians Eu 0.466
French Eu 0.472
Italians Eu 0.477
Spanish Gypsies Eu 0.483
Germans Eu 0.485
Danes Eu 0.501
Spanish Eu 0.516
Sardinians Eu 0.542
Guarani Am 0.570
North American Africans Af 0.576
Australian aboriginal Wailbri Oc 0.580
Papua New Guinea Oc 0.582
Senegalese Af 0.636
Khoi Af 0.646
South Africans Af 0.649
San Af 0.746
a As: Asian, Am: Native American, Eu: European, Af: African, Oc: Oceanian
b Genetic distance (DA distance) from Ainu
Table 3

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Fig. 2. Correspondence analysis showing relationships between
Ainu and other ethnic groups. The analysis is based on the frequency
of HLA-A and -B alleles at the serology level and that of HLA-DRB1 alleles
at the sequence level because sequence level data for HLA-A and B could be
obtained from only a few populations. Ainu and the following 36 populations
were compared: 1) Ryukyuan, 2) Japanese, 3) Asian Indians, 4) Taiwan
Bunun, 5) Thai Dai Dam, 6) Thai Dai Lue, 7) Buyi in South China, 8)
Singapore Chinese, 9) Kazakh, 10) Han, 11) Man, 12) South Koreans, 13)
Mongolians, 14) Chinese Koreans, 15) Buryat, 16) Tlingit in Alaska, 17)
Toba in Argentina, 18) Wichi in Argentina, 19) Guarani in Brazil, 20) Kaingang
in Brazil, 21) Bari living on the border between Colombia and Venezuela,
22) Non-Austronesian Highlanders in Papua New Guinea, 23) Australian
aboriginal Wailbri, 24) Danes, 25) French, 26) Germans, 27) Italians,
28) Romanians, 29) Sardinians, 30) Spanish, 31) Spanish Gypsies, 32) Senegalese,
33) South Africans, 34) San, 35) Khoi, and 36) North American
Africans. The HLA-A and -B frequencies at the serology level among Ainu,
Toba, and Wichi were obtained from the sequence level frequencies. Contributions
of the first and second dimensions are 17.2% and 13.9%, respectively
(31.1% total)


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for those too lazy to read: Ainu are quite genetically far from samples in Papua New Guinea or Australia, so you can give up on the Australoid links. They are Mongoloid, but representing a type that is rare. They occupy a middle position between East Asian Mongoloids and N.American Mongoloids

#39 Chanpuru

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 12:42 PM

Posted Image




What Jomon phenotype? Do you understand what the meaning of the word is and why your claims are obviously not backed by any academic sources? Phenotype = any observable characteristic or trait of an organism. The Jomon's have long died out. The only thing that remains of them are their skeletons and I've already posted the cranial measurements which placed them far from Australian or early SE Asian samples. See earlier post. The Ainu, which are assumed to be most direct descendants of the Jomon are Mongoloid. I've not posted one but several articles from peer reviewed journals that prove this. The reason why people still keep claiming the Ainu are Australoid (and now even Melanesian) is because they have a limited definition of what Mongoloids are. Modern day Koreans, Manchus, Chinese, much of the Japanese and even Ryukyuans are comprised of Neo-Mongoloids.. a group of Mongoloids that came out of Siberia, and pushed Paleo-Mongoloids (Older Mongoloids) northward and eastward.

the next problem is your chart, which is totally meaningless with out explaining what the colors mean. you don't even site the source for this material.

secondly, no one ever made the claim Japanese are "island Koreans". if you took time to read the articles I posted above, not only do they prove your claims wrong, they also don't make claims that Japanese are the same as Koreans.

and here's yet another article that proves my point is right.

Genetic Link Between Asians and Native
Americans: Evidence From HLA Genes
and Haplotypes

Katsushi Tokunaga, Jun Ohashi, Makoto Bannai,
and Takeo Juji
ABSTRACT: We have been studying polymorphisms of
HLA class I and II genes in East Asians including Buryat
in Siberia, Mongolian, Han Chinese, Man Chinese, Korean
Chinese, South Korean, and Taiwan indigenous populations
in collaboration with many Asian scientists. Regional
populations in Japan, Hondo-Japanese, Ryukyuan,
and Ainu, were also studied. HLA-A, -B, and -DRB1
gene frequencies were subjected to the correspondence
analysis and calculation of DA distances. The correspondence
analysis demonstrated several major clusters of human
populations in the world. “Mongoloid” populations
were highly diversified, in which several clusters such as
Northeast Asians, Southeast Asians, Oceanians, and Native
Americans were observed. Interestingly, an indigenous
population in North Japan, Ainu, was placed relatively
close to Native Americans in the correspondence
analysis. Distribution of particular HLA-A, -B, -DRB1
alleles and haplotypes was also analyzed in relation to
migration and dispersal routes of ancestral populations. A
number of alleles and haplotypes showed characteristic
patterns of regional distribution. For example, B39-HR5-
DQ7 (B*3901-DRB1*1406-DQB1*0301) was shared by
Ainu and Native Americans. A24-Cw8-B48 was commonly
observed in Taiwan indigenous populations, Maori
in New Zealand, Orochon in Northeast China, Inuit, and
Tlingit. These findings further support the genetic link
between East Asians and Native Americans. We have
proposed that various ancestral populations in East Asia,
marked by different HLA haplotypes, had migrated and
dispersed through multiple routes. Moreover, relatively
small genetic distances and the sharing of several HLA
haplotypes between Ainu and Native Americans suggest
that these populations are descendants of some Upper
Paleolithic populations of East Asia. Human Immunology
62, 1001–1008 (2001). © American Society for Histocompatibility
and Immunogenetics, 2001. Published by
Elsevier Science Inc.
INTRODUCTION
The major role of human leukocyte antigen (HLA) molecules
is the presentation of a variety of self and nonself
antigen peptides to T lymphocytes. The HLA system is
coded by a large cluster of genes situated on the short
arm of human chromosome 6, 6p21.3. One of their
outstanding characteristics is that the genes show very
high degrees of polymorphism. Large numbers of alleles
have been admitted by the WHO Nomenclature Committee
for Factors of the HLA System [1]. Totals of 209,
414, and 273 different alleles have been officially named
by December 2000 for HLA-A, HLA-B, and HLADRB1
genes, respectively. Every year, a number of newly
identified alleles are added to the nomenclature list.
Thus, the DNA typing at the sequence level should give
us much more information than the conventional typing.
Moreover, the HLA genes constitute particular combinations
of alleles (HLA haplotypes). The HLA haplotypes
show even higher degrees of polymorphisms. The most
valuable feature of HLA genes in the field of anthropology
or human population genetics is their remarkable
ethnic differences in the distribution of HLA alleles and
haplotypes. We have previously discussed the bases of
their usefulness for studying genetic backgrounds and
relationships of human populations [2– 4]. Briefly, (1)
each HLA locus shows a high degree of polymorphism,
(2) particular HLA haplotypes show strong linkage disequilibria
and such haplotypes may have single origins
and survived for thousands of years, (3) ethnic differences
From the Department of Human Genetics, Graduate School of Medicine,
University of Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan (K.T., J.O.); Japanese Red Cross Tokyo
Metropolitan Blood Center, Tokyo, Japan (M.B.); Japanese Red Cross
Central Blood Center, Tokyo, Japan (T.J.).
Address reprint requests to: Katsushi Tokunaga, Ph.D, Department of
Human Genetics, Graduate School of Medicine, The University of Tokyo,
Hongo 7-3-1, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo 113-0033, Japan; Phone: 181-3-5841-
3692; Fax: 181-3-5802-2907; E-Mail: tokunaga@m.u-tokyo.ac.jp.
Received May 16, 2001; accepted June 15, 2001.
Human Immunology 62, 1001–1008 (2001)
© American Society for Histocompatibility and Immunogenetics, 2001 0198-8859/01/$–see front matter
Published by Elsevier Science Inc. S0198-8859(01)00301-9
in the frequencies of HLA alleles and haplotypes are
much more extensive than those of other functional
genes, and finally, 4) the HLA region covers approximately
3.6 megabases, thus HLA haplotypes represent
the polymorphic feature of more than one in thousand of
the total human genome. In the present study, we examined
the genetic affinities among Asian and Native
American populations by means of genetic distances and
a multivariate analysis. Genetic link between East Asians
and Amerindians is supported by the sharing of particular
HLA alleles and haplotypes. In this context, a special
attention to the Ainu, the indigenous population in
North Japan, should be paid. Also presented is a preliminary
attempt to estimate the ages of major haplotypes in
each population.
MATERIALS AND METHODS
Populations and Genetic Affinities
Genetic affinities among different populations were estimated
by two different methods. First, a phylogenetic
tree analysis was performed using the neighbor-joining
method [5] based on the modified Cavalli-Sforza distance
(DA) [6]. Second, the correspondence analysis [7] was
carried out. For the analyses, we used the serology-level
frequencies for HLA-A and HLA-B and sequence-level
frequencies for HLA-DRB1, because the sequence-level
data for HLA-A and HLA-B were available only in a few
populations up to now. We have been studying HLA
polymorphisms in East Asians including Buryat in Siberia
[8], Mongolian [9], Han Chinese [10], Man Chinese
[10], Korean Chinese [10], South Korean [10], and
Taiwan indigenous populations [11] in collaboration
with many Asian scientists. Regional populations in
Japan, Hondo-Japanese in major islands [10, 12],
Ryukyuan in South Japan [13], and Ainu in North Japan
[4, 14], were also studied. For the other populations, we
referred to previous reports. HLA data of Senegalese,
South Africans, San, Khoi, North American Africans,
Danes, French, Germans, Italians, Romanians, Sardinians,
Spanish, Spanish Gypsies, Asian Indians, Non-Austronesian
Highlanders in Papua New Guinea, Buyi in
South China, Singapore Chinese, and Tlingit in Alaska
were obtained from the summary report at the 11th
International Histocompatibility Workshop (IHW)
[15]. The data of Kazakh in West China were obtained
from our joint report presented at the 12th IHW [10].
The data of Bubi in island of Bioko (Equatorial Guinea)
[16], Zulu in South Africa [17], Moroccan and Ashkenazi
Jews [18], Greeks [19], Croatians [20], Orcadians
[21], Australian aboriginal Wailbri [22], Bunun in Taiwan
[23], Dai Dam [24] and Dai Lue [25] in Thai, urban
Thais [26], Taiwanese [27], Khoton and Khalkh Mongolians
[28], Nivkhi in Sakhalin (Far Eastern Russia)
[29], two Guaicuruan-speaking Argentinian tribes, Toba
and Wichi [30, 31], three Brazilian tribes, Kaingang,
Guarani, and Terena [32–34], Bari Amerindians living on
the border between Venezuela and Colombia [35, 36], and
Seris in Mexico [37] were obtained from previous reports.
Estimation of Haplotype Age
In an attempt to estimate the ages of major haplotypes
found in each population, the following simple mathematical
model is considered. We assume two linked loci,
A and B, each with a number of alleles in a population,
being in the Hardy-Weinberg’s equilibrium. The recombination
fraction between the two loci is denoted by
delta and no mutation is assumed. It is assumed that one
of major haplotypes carries allele a at locus A and allele
b at locus B. The haplotype frequency at time t (measured
in generations) is denoted by hab(t), and the allele frequencies
of a and b are denoted by pa and pb, respectively.
The other alleles are represented by a# at locus A and b#
at
locus B, and the allele frequencies of a# and b#
are 1 2 pa
and 1 2 pb, respectively. When time t is measured backward
in time (i.e., the present is t 5 0), the following
deterministic equations are hold :
hab (t) 5 (1 2 u )hab (t 1 1) 1 upa pb,
ha#b (t) 5 (1 2 u )ha#b (t 1 1) 1 upa(1 2 pa) pb,
hab (t) 5 (1 2 u )hab (t 1 1) 1 upa(1 2 pb),
and
ha#b (t) 5 (1 2 u )ha#b (t 1 1) 1 u (1 2 pa)(1 2 pb).
(1)
These equations can be solved as
hab (t) 5 (hab (0) 1 pa pb)(1 2 u )2t 2 pa pb ,
ha#b (t) 5 (ha#b (0)1(12pa) pb)(12u )2t2(1 2 pa) pb,
hab (t) 5 (hab (0) 1 pa(1 2 pb))(1 2 u )2t
2 pa(1 2 pb),
and
ha#b (t) 5 (ha#b (0) 1 (1 2 pa)(1 2 pb))(1 2 u )2t
2 (1 2 pa)(1 2 pb). (2)
Therefore, when hab(0), ha#b(0), hab# (0), ha#b#
(0), and delta
are known, we can calculate the previous haplotype frequencies
by using the above equations. Although hab(t),
ha#b(t), hab#(t), ha#b#
(t), must be positive values for any t, one
of these will be negative at T when t is increased from 0
by 1. In this paper, the minimum of T 2 1 is regarded
as the possible maximum age of the haplotype carrying a
and b in the population.
1002 K. Tokunaga et al.
RESULTS AND DISCUSSION
Ainu, Indigenous Population in North Japan
Ainu are considered to be descendants of preagricultural
indigenous populations who had resided in Japan since
more than ten thousand years ago (“Jomonese”). Whereas
Hondo-Japanese, who constitute the major population of
contemporary Japan, are descendants mainly of post-
Neolithic migrants from East Asian continent in the
“Yayoi” and “Kofun” periods around 300 B.C. to 600
D.C. [38–40]. Allele and haplotype data supported the
premise. Several allele commonly found in Hondo-Japanese,
including A*3303, B*4403, B*5201, B*5401,
B*0702, DRB1*1502, DRB1*1302, and DRB1*0101
were infrequent in Ainu [4, 14]. These alleles constitute
four major haplotypes in Hondo-Japanese, A*2402-
B*5201-DRB1*1502, A*3303-B*4403-DRB1*1302,
A*2402-B*5401-DRB1*0405, and A*2402-B*0702-
DRB1*0101, respectively [12]. We have suggested that
the ancestral populations marked by the serologically
equivalent haplotypes, B52-DR2(DR15), B44-DR13,
and B7-DR1, may have moved through the Korean
Peninsula into central areas of Japan in the Yayoi and
Kofun Eras, whereas those marked by the B54-DR4
haplotype may have moved through the southern islands
of Japan [3, 41]. We have been studying polymorphisms
of HLA class I and II genes in East Asian populations in
collaboration with many Asian scientists [8 –11]. Regional
populations in Japan, including Hondo-Japanese
[10, 12] and Ryukyuan [13], have also been studied.
When we look at the phylogenetic tree based on these
population data, the Ainu were most far from the other
East Asian populations [13]. Comparing the genetic
distances from the other East Asian populations,
Ryukyuan, Hondo-Japanese, and Nivkhi are relatively
near to the Ainu as shown in Table 1. The Nivkhi are a
native population in Sakhalin, Far Eastern Russia [29].
The Ryukyuans of Okinawa (southwestern islands of
Japan), as well as the Ainu, are considered to be relatively
pure descendants of the preagricultural indigenous people
(Jomonese), although there may be a recent gene flow
from South China marked by the haplotype A*24-B*54-
DRB1*0405 [13]. It is noteworthy that even Hondo-
Japanese is relatively close to such indigenous populations
than the majority of populations in Northeast Asia
such as Chinese populations (Fig. 1).
Genetic Affinities Between East Asians and
Native Americans
The correspondence analysis showed several major groups
such as Africans, Europeans, Northeast and Southeast
Asians, Oceanians, and Amerindians (Fig. 1). Among
them, Mongoloid“ populations were highly diversified
and even separated into several clusters. In the previous
study, we had performed the correspondence analysis
based on 37 populations [4]. In this study, two more
Africans, five more Caucasians, three more East Asians,
and two more Native Americans were added to the
analysis. For two East Asians, previous data were replaced
by new data. All such additional populations went into
the corresponding groups, showing the high reliability of
the analysis and reasonable genetic relationships among
various populations. Moreover, in the East Asian cluster,
Northeast populations and Southeast populations were
more clearly distinguished as separate clusters, when
compared with the previous analysis. Among these major
clusters, Northeast Asians showed the nearest relationship
to Native Americans (Fig. 1). First-dimension scores
distinguished Europeans and Africans from South and
Central Native Americans and Northeast Asians. On the
other hand, second-dimension scores distinguished clusters
of Southeast Asians and Oceanians. In the Northeast
Asian cluster, Ainu, Nivkhi, Ryukyuans, and even
Hondo-Japanese showed relatively low scores for first
dimension. Tlingit is the only Native North Americans
TABLE 1. Genetic distances between Ainu and
other populations
Population Group* Genetic distance (DA)
Ryukyuan (Japan) As 0,149
Hondo Japanese As 0,200
Nivkhi (Sakhalin, Russia) As 0,242
Chinese Koreans As 0,271
Toba (Argentina) Am 0,271
South Koreans As 0,291
Man (NE China) As 0,324
Bunun (Taiwan
indigenous)
As 0,326
Mongolians As 0,328
Buyi (S China) As 0,346
Wichi (Argentina) Am 0,349
Singapore Chinese As 0,356
Han (NE China) As 0,363
Thai Dai Dam As 0,376
Kazakh (W China) As 0,412
Thai Dai Lue As 0,428
Asian Indians As 0,430
Bari (Venezuela/Colombia) Am 0,431
Kaingang (S Brazil) Am 0,442
Tlingit (Alaska) Am 0,450
Romanians Eu 0,466
Germans Eu 0,485
Sardinians Eu 0,542
Senegalese Af 0,636
Khoi Af 0,646
San Af 0,746

Posted Image

* As: Asian, Am: Native American, Eu: European, Af: African.
Genetic Link Between Asians and Native Americans 1003
whose HLA-class I and class II data have been reported.
Comparing with the South or Central Native Americans,
Tlingit is nearer to the Ainu and situated between South
Americans and Northeast Asians, especially Far North
Asian continental populations such as Kazakh and Mongolians
(Fig. 1). It is noteworthy that the Tlingit belong
to a postulated second wave of Asian migrants (the
Na-Dene), whereas South Americans are considered as
first migrants (Amerindians) [42].
Shared Alleles and Haplotypes Between Asians
and Native Americans
Distribution of particular HLA-A, -B, and -DRB1 alleles
and haplotypes was also analyzed in relation to migration
and dispersal routes of ancestral populations. A number
of alleles showed characteristic patterns of regional distribution
(Table 2). For example, DRB1*1406 was ob-
FIGURE 1 Genetic relationships among different populations
were measured by correspondence analysis. Ainu,
Ryukyuan, Hondo-Japanese, Nivkhi, Tlingit, Bari, Toba, Terena,
Wichi, Guarani, Seris, Kaingang, and the following 37
populations were compared: 1) San, 2) Khoi, 3) South Africans,
4) Bubi, 5) Zulu, 6) Senegalese, 7) North American Africans,
8) Danes, 9) French, 10) Germans, 11) Italians, 12) Romanians,
13) Sardinians, 14) Spanish, 15) Ashkenazi Jews, 16)
Moroccan Jews, 17) Greeks, 18) Croatians, 19) Orcadians, 20)
Spanish Gypsies, 21) Khoton Mongolians, 22) Khalkh Mongolians,
23) Asian Indians, 24) Mongolians, 25) Kazakh, 26)
Han, 27) South Koreans, 28) Man Chinese, 29) Thais, 30)
Singapore Chinese, 31) Taiwanese, 32) Buyi, 33) Thai Dai
Dam, 34) Thai Die Lue, 35) Bunun, 36) Non-Austronesian
Highlanders in Papua New Guinea, and 37) Wailbri. Contributions
of the first and second dimensions are 17.5% and
13.6%, respectively.
TABLE 2 Common HLA alleles in Native Americans and their distribution in other populations
Australia Taiwan S. China N. China Hondo Mongolian N. Japan Sakhalin S. Japan Alaska Argentina Brazil Mexico
African European Wailbri Bunun Thai Buyi Han Japanese Ainu Nivkhi Ryukyu Tlingit Toba Wichi Kaingang Terena Seri
A24 ,4.7 6.1–18.1 33,6 55,6 20,2 16,7 12,3 37,4 25,8 24,0 50,9 35,3 26,8 10,1 21,6 6,3 17,5 8,8
A31 0.5–5.0 ,3.9 3,2 2,5 0,7 2,6 10,3 5,3 12,0 4,7 8,3 3,6 25,0 38,6 71,6 18,3 16,6
B35 0.5–13.1 3.4–20.6 4,6 1,4 9,1 7,6 5,0 11,0 10,4 19,4 12,7 16,0 34,8 36,7 26,8 41,0
B39 0.9–4.5 ,4.0 2,4 14,2 2,1 3,6 2,6 2,8 0,7 16,0 5,7 3,8 9,9 12,0 19,2 19,8
B48 ,1.0 ,0.7 11,6 1,1 5,3 1,5 5,9 7,0 11,3 4,4 4,5 24,1 10,9 8,1 16,4 1,0
DRB1*1602 ,2.7 ,1.8 7,7 2,9 14,8 3,4 1,7 0,5 0,3 2,3 11,7 27,1
DRB1*1402 ,0.6 ,0.6 2,9 0,3 0,5 6,6 52,4 10,6 26,4 17,8 13,6
DRB1*0802 ,5.0 ,0.9 0,8 6,6 5,0 10,0 2,8 7,9 0,9 22,3 18,3 51,4 20,3 36,3
DRB1*1406 ,0.2 0,8 2,3 17,0 5,7 2,3 23,7 17,1 11,0
1004 K. Tokunaga et al.
served at high allele frequencies in some Native Americans
(Toba; 23.7%, Wichi; 17.1%, and Terena; 11.0%)
[15, 30, 34]. This allele has not been found in Southern
Chinese, Europeans, or Africans, and has been infrequently
observed in Koreans. Interestingly enough, this
allele is common in the indigenous Northeast Asian
populations, Ainu (17.0%) and Nivkhi (5.7%) and is
also observed in Ryukyuans (2.3%) and Japanese (2.3%)
[10, 13, 14, 29]. As we reported previously,
DRB1*1406 may constitute a haplotype, B*3901-
DRB1*1406-DQB1*0301, in Ainu [4]. A serologically
equivalent haplotype, B39-HR5-DQ7, was reported to
be shared by some Native Americans [43]. A similar
distribution has been observed for DRB1*1402. It has
been commonly observed in Native Americans and
Nivkhi [15, 29, 30, 34, 37]. Some other characteristic
alleles in Native Americans has been observed wider in
East Asia (Table 2). DRB1*0802 was very common
allele in Native Americans [30, 32–34, 37]. This allele
was also observed at frequencies of 5–10% in Japanese
populations (Ainu, Ryukyuans, and Hondo-Japanese)
and Northeast Asians (Khalha Mongolians and Kazakh)
[9, 10, 13, 14] but has been reported to be rare in
Southern Chinese or Europeans [15]. For the HLA-class
I haplotype, A31-B51, has been commonly observed in
both Native Americans (Native Brazilian and North
American Indian) and East Asians (Ainu and Orochon)
[4, 15]. The haplotype, A24-Cw8-B48 was commonly
observed in Taiwan indigenous populations, as well as
Maori in New Zealand, Orochon in Northeast China,
Inuit, and Tlingit [11]. Interestingly, this widely distributed
haplotype may carry a MICA-MICB null haplotype
[44, 45]. These data further support the genetic
link between East Asians and Native Americans. A rare
allele, DRB1*1106, is notable. The allele had been
found in one Korean and two Singapore Chinese [46, 47]
and then has been found to be common in neighboring
indigenous populations, Ainu [14] and Nivkhi [29], at
allele frequencies of 5.0% and 9.4%, respectively.
DRB1*1106 may be carried by the haplotype, B*3901-
DRB1*1106-DQB1*0301, in Ainu [4]. The equivalent
serological association, B39-DR11-DQ7, was observed
in Singapore Chinese and even in Brazilians [15]. These
findings suggest that DRB1*1106 might be an old allele
inherited from Upper Paleolithic populations in East
Asia. There is no doubt that natural selection has operated
to maintain the wide variety of HLA alleles. However,
there is a controversy if natural selection strongly
biased the distribution of HLA alleles and haplotypes in
modern human populations. The majority of the population
studies so far performed by means of HLA polymorphisms
including our own studies have essentially
agreed with the studies using other ”neutral“ genetic
markers. Thus, the influence of natural selection on the
regional distribution of HLA alleles and haplotypes may
be smaller than that of isolation, migration and admixture
of ancestral populations.
Attempt to Estimate Haplotype Ages
We performed an attempt to estimate the ages of HLA
haplotypes based on a deterministic model. Figure 2
shows the estimated ages of major haplotypes in South
Korean and three Japanese populations. It is obvious that
Hondo-Japanese share several major haplotypes, including
B61(B*4006)-DR9(DRB1*0901), B44(B*4403)-DR13
(DRB1*1302) and B62(B*1501)-DR4(DRB1*0406),
with Koreans, and such haplotypes are relatively young (at
most ca.3000 years). Ryukyuan have also a few such young
haplotypes, but they have some old haplotypes, too
. On the
other hand, Ainu have the oldest haplotype (B*1501-
DRB1*1401), and a shared haplotype between Ainu and
Native Americans mentioned above
(B*3901-
DRB1*1406-DQB1*0301) was the third oldest one in
Ainu. Moreover, none of the major haplotypes in Ainu are
frequent in the other Japanese and Korean populations.
These results again support the hypothesis that Ainu are
relatively pure descendants of preagricultural indigenous
populations, whereas Hondo-Japanese are descendants
mainly of post-Neolithic migrants from East Asian continent.
Ryukyuan had shared similar ancestral populations
with Ainu in the prehistoric age but they have recently
received significant gene flow from the continent
[4, 13,
14]. Although we estimated the ages in a deterministic
manner, random genetic drift is known to affect haplotype
frequencies. In fact, sizes of many human ancestral populations
are considered to be small and have been isolated
from each other to certain degrees. In such subdivided
population structures, linkage disequilibrium is likely to
become stronger and certain haplotypes may be maintained
for longer time than expected in a deterministic
manner [48]. Thus, we consider that the relative length of
the estimated ages rather than the estimated figures may
be more reliable in the present study
Posted Image
FIGURE 2 Estimated ages of major haplotypes. The recombination
fraction between HLA-B and -DR was set to 0.005.
One generation corresponds to 20 years. For Hondo-Japanese,
HLA-B-DR haplotypes, B54-DR15, B44-DR13, B7-DR1,
B54-DR4, B61-DR9, B35-DR4, B62-DR4, and B46-DR8,
were analyzed. For South Korean, B44-DR13, B62-DR4, B44-
DR7, B13-DR7, B54-DR4, B61-DR9, B58-DR13, and B35-
DR4 were analyzed. For Ryukyuan, B54-DR4, B35-DR15,
B59-DR4, B61-DR9, and B61-DR4 were analyzed. For Ainu,
B62-DR14, B62-DR12, B62-DR8, B39-DRHR5(DR14),
B35-DR14, B39-DR11, B51-DR9, B48-DR4, and B40-
DR12 were analyzed. Only haplotypes shared by more than
two populations are indicated: B61-DR9 (f), B54-DR4 (Œ),
B44-DR13 (d), B62-DR4 (h), and B35-DR4 (‚).
Genetic Link Between Asians and Native Americans 1005
populations, whereas Hondo-Japanese are descendants
mainly of post-Neolithic migrants from East Asian continent.
Ryukyuan had shared similar ancestral populations
with Ainu in the prehistoric age but they have recently
received significant gene flow from the continent
[4, 13,
14]. Although we estimated the ages in a deterministic
manner, random genetic drift is known to affect haplotype
frequencies. In fact, sizes of many human ancestral populations
are considered to be small and have been isolated
from each other to certain degrees. In such subdivided
population structures, linkage disequilibrium is likely to
become stronger and certain haplotypes may be maintained
for longer time than expected in a deterministic
manner [48]. Thus, we consider that the relative length of
the estimated ages rather than the estimated figures may
be more reliable in the present study.
CONCLUSION
Native Americans show stronger genetic affinities to
Northeast Asians than the other major populations in the
world. The genetic link between Native Americans and
East Asians are supported by the distribution patterns of
characteristic HLA alleles and haplotypes. Ainu, the
indigenous population in North Japan, is a key population:
their HLA profiles are intermediate between Amerindians
and the majority of Northeast Asians and they
are considered to be relatively pure descendants of Upper
Paleolithic people in East Asia.

Edited by Chanpuru, 31 January 2011 - 12:51 PM.


#40 Karakhan

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 06:08 PM

Posted Image

How many times do I have to lecture you on this topic? Japanese have MORE Austronesian genetic admixture than the Koreans. This Austronesian admixture certainly did NOT come from Northeast Asia. It definitely came from Austronesians- which includes the Malays, Indonesians and Papua New Guinea. They even have Papuan and Melanesian admixture, which probably came from the same source.

And this Autronesian genetic admixture did not come from Native Americans. Native Americans are Mongoloid. Jomon are NOT Mongoloid like Native Americans. The Jomon phenotype is simple:
Posted Image
Posted Image


From the study you linked:



That must mean Taiwanese Aboriginies, Orochon and Inuit are related right? This study was done in 2001. Most studies that I linked in this thread are done in 2008, 2009, 2010, which used 100,000+ SNPs... many more than the ones used in the study you linked.

And to say Ainu are somehow between East Asians and Northern Native Americans is VERY far fetched. The only populations that would fit that criteria are Paleo-Siberians: Koryaks, Chukchi and Inuits.
Posted Image

A study on cranial measurements
Characterization of Biological Diversity Through Analysis of Discrete Cranial Traits
Tsunehiko Hanihara,1* Hajime Ishida,2 and Yukio Dodo3, 2003

Posted Image

Hokkaido Ainu is labelled as "2"
Sakhalin Ainu is labelled as "3"

Ainu cluster more closely to Subsaharan Africans than towards the Native Americans. In the first graph, they are between Southeast Asians and Native Americans... suggesting Ainu are probably closer to Polynesians. Jomon people are very diverse, so Ainus are genetically different to the Okinawans.


Chosunscholar, thank you for these graphs and charts, however again, you did not post your sources.
As stated previously, in the past, members who have posted random graphs and charts with out citing the original source, as well as leaving out the original captions.. have more than often taken these graphs out of context. In fact, this very same graph that has been abused lately
Posted Image
has been taken way out of context despite the fact that I had even provided the original journal article for everyone to read. It is quite clear that instead of discussing more about the article itself, certain members (or perhaps the same person with multiple accounts), is far more concerned with the issue why certain colors appear the way they are, especially with the Japanese and Korean sample groups, as it may rub them the wrong way. Of course, the very fact that in its methodology, the authors of that graph used linguistic families to explain how it categorized Altaic, Austronesian, etc groups, has been ignored, as members here are interpreting every category as representative of genetic background instead. You mention Austronesian, Australoid, Melanesian, etc but are you aware of what they actually mean? Austronesian refers to a language family, not a racial/ethnic one.

Secondly, although your graphs are from journal articles, its quite clear that you did not read these articles either and are relying on a blog that is re-interpreting the article. It would be better again, to cite the source of the blog and the article instead as presenting it as your own. What I've been doing when I post is that I'll find the article, post the journal it originally came from, a link to where one could find it (if possible), the abstract/info, methodology (if possible), and conclusion. If there are pics to be posted, the figure (most importantly) and caption needs to be posted. Other wise, people can interpret them in their own way and take them out of context.. like what has been occuring these past days. The method Chanpuru has been posting is a better example of what you should be doing, as the journal article supports their arguements, and its source made available for anyone to find on their own, and captions placed under pictures so that they will not be taken out of its original context. The reason why we prefer journal articles over blogs is because most journal articles are peer reviewed, meaning, they have to go through the examination of other people who are experts in their fields before being published.

Chanpuru:
Thank you for posting these articles, they are the way things should be done when presenting data, and helps strengthen ones position. However not to nitpick, but it would be best to NOT post the entire article, due to concerns over copyright issues, unless the article has been made public domain. As I stated earlier, just leave the source and link to the article, and perhaps something brief from it.. such as an abstract/info, methodology, and concluding paragraphs. Pictures need a caption so we know what the author is trying to explain, instead of what the member is trying to interpret from it.

Finally, the last Korean-origin related thread was closed because of this issue. People were posting random graphs out of nowhere, not citing proper sources, and making broad claims that could not be backed up. I don't want to close another thread because of this. For this reason I will add this rule for this section (especially since its very applicable to anthropology), and will start enforcing this rule. While the posts here triggered this decision, it is something that needs to be done anwyays as it improves discussion.

#41 Pattie

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 06:09 PM

Everyone take a deep breath and remember that you're adults.
Watch your tone, no one is lecturing anyone, we're here to discuss, not browbeat.

Stick to the topic and mind your manners.

Also, more thorough citations on charts and graphs! If you can't quote chapter and verse, don't use it! PM me with any comments, questions or complaints.
Cheers,
 

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#42 ChosunScholar

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 07:13 PM

Posted Image
Posted Image

was from

http://www.sciencema...9/1541.abstract


Posted Image

was from

http://dienekes.blog...tion-first.html

The graphs speak for themselves. It is very clear Japanese have some Austronesian admixture, and this includes Melanesian. Austronesian and Australoid go hand in hand. The majority of Austronesian speakers are from Indonesia, Malaysia, Phillipines, Taiwan and Micronesia.

Edited by ChosunScholar, 01 February 2011 - 07:14 PM.


#43 Chanpuru

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 12:31 AM

Chosunscholar,

Posted Image

you do realize that the drawing of the man in the suit is not Jomon right? No Jomons existed by the time Asians wore western clothing. They were already long gone.
secondly to show that you don't know what you're talking about.. Jomon is not an Altaic or Japonic language, in fact we don't even know what it is. Why? because I told you, they did not leave a language behind. We have theories of what they spoke but no concrete proof. Ainu language is not Japonic nor Altaic. Its a well known Language Isolate. There are many languages that are considered isolates. Nivkhi, which is spoken near by the Ainu areas, is also an isolate. the Japonic language families which consist of 8 languages, could be considered Altaic by some, and non-Altaic by others. Same with Korean.

However I realize that it doesn't matter if I posted 3, or 100 articles that prove your claims wrong, you already have a bias, and as the moderators pointed out, you twist, and we can see it with the very article you just posted!

you use this picture to back up your claims
Posted Image
yet you don't even understand what the picture means.
I looked at the source you left:
A study on cranial measurements
Characterization of Biological Diversity Through Analysis of Discrete Cranial Traits
Tsunehiko Hanihara,1* Hajime Ishida,2 and Yukio Dodo3, 2003

and found it available here
http://wysinger.home...ete_cranial.pdf

its interesting that you selectively chose those graphs, which is simply a two dimensional scattergram based on the types of samples they collected..
but avoid posting the results of this data collection on page 8 which can be seen here:
Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

the results from your very own source, places Hokkaido and Sakhalin Ainu as close to ancient Baikal inhabitants and Amur basin people under the East Asian category, while placing far from the Australian samples. Perhaps you need to read what you're trying to post instead of distorting graphs to suit your agenda.

#44 Karakhan

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 03:28 PM

Chosunscholar,

Posted Image

you do realize that the drawing of the man in the suit is not Jomon right? No Jomons existed by the time Asians wore western clothing. They were already long gone.
secondly to show that you don't know what you're talking about.. Jomon is not an Altaic or Japonic language, in fact we don't even know what it is. Why? because I told you, they did not leave a language behind. We have theories of what they spoke but no concrete proof. Ainu language is not Japonic nor Altaic. Its a well known Language Isolate. There are many languages that are considered isolates. Nivkhi, which is spoken near by the Ainu areas, is also an isolate. the Japonic language families which consist of 8 languages, could be considered Altaic by some, and non-Altaic by others. Same with Korean.

However I realize that it doesn't matter if I posted 3, or 100 articles that prove your claims wrong, you already have a bias, and as the moderators pointed out, you twist, and we can see it with the very article you just posted!

you use this picture to back up your claims
Posted Image
yet you don't even understand what the picture means.
I looked at the source you left:
A study on cranial measurements
Characterization of Biological Diversity Through Analysis of Discrete Cranial Traits
Tsunehiko Hanihara,1* Hajime Ishida,2 and Yukio Dodo3, 2003

and found it available here
http://wysinger.home...ete_cranial.pdf

its interesting that you selectively chose those graphs, which is simply a two dimensional scattergram based on the types of samples they collected..
but avoid posting the results of this data collection on page 8 which can be seen here:
Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

the results from your very own source, places Hokkaido and Sakhalin Ainu as close to ancient Baikal inhabitants and Amur basin people under the East Asian category, while placing far from the Australian samples. Perhaps you need to read what you're trying to post instead of distorting graphs to suit your agenda.


Thanks, as I suspected.. again we have another instance of data being taken out of its original context. In anycase, I'm closing this thread as it again shifted from a question on the origins of Korean descent, to the origins of the Japanese. And again, the same suspects who contributed to the closure of the last thread, are present in this thread under new usernames. They have been taken care of. if some one still is interesetd in creating a third one, feel free to do so. However please keep in mind the new rules for the section that can be found here:
http://www.chinahist...ts-subsections/




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