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Should all hong kong born people be considered cantonese?


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#1 TaishanLOVE

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 02:49 AM

Based on these reasons? should all hong kong born people be considered cantonese?

Language: 100% cantonese
Media: 100% cantonese
Education:100% cantonese
Society: 100% cantonese
Culture: HIGHLY cantonese influenced
Cuisine: HIGHLY cantonese influenced

Although majority of hong kong people are cantonese,not all are cantonese. However I find that those who are hakka,teachow,shanghainese ESPECIALLY taishanese who were born and raised in hong kong cantonese speaking society, identifies themselves as cantonese and almost never mentioned of their original roots.Some would say " I'm an hong kong cantonese with ancestry from shandong" other's will say " HEY,I'm born in hong kong and I speak cantonese,I don't even speak a word of shanghainese and never even visited shanghai in my entire life and have no intentions either".

One can argue,isn't that like saying chinese americans should be considered the same as americans? but the difference between us and them is that we are all han chinese to begin with.Chinese americans speak english but still speak their own language ,with varierity of chinese culture and language.But in hong kong, we only speak cantonese publicly (mandarin on very rare and few occasion) also our mentality,culture,cuisine is so much like other cantonese outside of hong kong.You can't even compare it to non-chinese who were born and raised in hong kong, because cantonese are also ethnically han chinese and this makes it extremely easier for other han chinese to assimilate and idendify into cantonese society.

Edited by TaishanLOVE, 09 May 2011 - 03:12 AM.


#2 bloodmerchant

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 12:52 PM

I have a few relatives that live in Hong Kong. They all identify themselves as Cantonese and have no pride in their ancestral heritage. And that's coming from someone who was unaware of his heritage for over half his life.
吳王夫差將伐齊,子胥曰:不可。夫齊之與吳也,習俗不同,言語不通,我得其地不能處,得其民不得使。夫吳之與越也,接土鄰境,壤交通屬,習俗同,言語通,我得其地能處之,得其民能使之。
─伍子胥 《知化》,《呂氏春秋》

#3 mariusj

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 01:11 PM

I always wonder why does one have to be proud of their heritage or ashamed of it when the only things they have commit was to be born into it.

#4 qrasy

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 08:51 PM

US and Hong Kong are different as, the majority in US would consider the local-born Chinese as "racially different".
(Of course, in Hong Kong's case it's rather "Gweilo" that will not be considered to be "of the same race" by the locals)

And frankly speaking, I never ran into this issue as the Chinese in Hong Kong would consider themselves as HongKong-er rather than Guangdong-er.
Of course, Hakka, Taishanese and Teochew are technically Guangdong-ers as well (as the regions that speak the language are geographically part of Guangdong).

Edited by qrasy, 09 May 2011 - 08:55 PM.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the liedeliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK

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#5 TaishanLOVE

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 01:43 AM

I have a few relatives that live in Hong Kong. They all identify themselves as Cantonese and have no pride in their ancestral heritage. And that's coming from someone who was unaware of his heritage for over half his life.



It isn't easy after having been born and growing up in cantonese society all your life with,especially if your ancestor have lived in few generations in hong kong.Growing up with cantonese education,media,cuisines even your habits and mentality will become accustomed with cantonese society,eventually your feelings for your roots will become little to dead.Some have never even mentioned of their roots,I have many taishanese friends in hong kong (taishanese makes up 30-40% of hong kong population) but they don't even have the slightest interest in their roots or visiting taishan, nor do they care about their dialect.But the fact is taishanese is already an sub-group of cantonese yue chinese dialect and culture.This makes it even more easier for us to identify as cantonese,we are basically taishanese cantonese or toisan cantonese.

My brother and sister don't give a d**** about taishan.My dad and mum will occasionally mentioned taishan but deep down they don't have any attachments.Only my grandma,grandpa and me speaks some taishanese but it's getting less and less,the truth is my grandparents don't really care much about taishan either,they were born in hong kong,but there parents came from taishan, so this is only attachment they have left with taishan.Anyway it's very easy to learn taishanese because of there similarity with cantonese.

#6 TaishanLOVE

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:56 PM

Anymore opinions :ATT5:

#7 Mochi

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 05:31 PM

Of course! Cantonese is only a dialect :)

#8 TaishanLOVE

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 07:51 PM

Of course! Cantonese is only a dialect :)


So? mandarin is only a dialect too :) but both of them are chinese language. Cantonese is also an chinese language but different to mandarin because it's tonal.

Edit: Because of hong kong movies and hollywood hong kong actors,cantonese enjoys international fame.

Edited by TaishanLOVE, 19 May 2011 - 07:57 PM.


#9 qrasy

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 10:18 PM

Growing up with cantonese education,media,cuisines even your habits and mentality will become accustomed with cantonese society,eventually your feelings for your roots will become little to dead.

And why would there be a motivation to mention "root"?
The place where they "feel home" is Hong Kong.

Some have never even mentioned of their roots

Among many people that I have met in Hong Kong, few has mentioned their "祖籍".
Pretty much it's that they just knew the name of the place, that's it.
They don't need to mention it in order to get friends.

But the fact is taishanese is already an sub-group of cantonese yue chinese dialect and culture.This makes it even more easier for us to identify as cantonese,we are basically taishanese cantonese or toisan cantonese.

It's not a type of Cantonese (in here I am using the most common meaning of the word "Cantonese").
Though it's closely related and is also classified within "Yue branch" of Sinitic.

So? mandarin is only a dialect too :) but both of them are chinese language. Cantonese is also an chinese language but different to mandarin because it's tonal.

Mandarin is tonal, and Cantonese is also tonal; but the system of tones are different.
Standard Mandarin is pretty artificial and it may not be "dialect" as you think.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the liedeliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK

One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas. - Neil deGrasse Tyson

#10 TaishanLOVE

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:30 AM

And why would there be a motivation to mention "root"?
The place where they "feel home" is Hong Kong.

Among many people that I have met in Hong Kong, few has mentioned their "祖籍".
Pretty much it's that they just knew the name of the place, that's it.
They don't need to mention it in order to get friends.


Maybe it's just my opinion but I find it really shameful that some people forget their roots.I identify myself as an hong konger but even so I still have some love for my roots.I've also met hong kongers who mentioned their roots although they don't take it seriously nor do they care anymore.

It's not a type of Cantonese (in here I am using the most common meaning of the word "Cantonese").
Though it's closely related and is also classified within "Yue branch" of Sinitic.

Mandarin is tonal, and Cantonese is also tonal; but the system of tones are different.
Standard Mandarin is pretty artificial and it may not be "dialect" as you think.


Well you just said it's closely related with yue branch, this means taishanese are also yue chinese and sister to cantonese people.Taishanese are also cantonese, we are only called taishanese because we came from taishan,we are in reality toishan cantonese.Saying taishanese is different to cantonese is like saying hakka mexian is different to other hakkas.

Apart from system of tones are different,cantonese generally has stronger tonal than mandarin, while mandarin has weaker and softer tonal than cantonese.

#11 qrasy

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 03:52 PM

Well you just said it's closely related with yue branch, this means taishanese are also yue chinese and sister to cantonese people.Taishanese are also cantonese, we are only called taishanese because we came from taishan,we are in reality toishan cantonese.Saying taishanese is different to cantonese is like saying hakka mexian is different to other hakkas.

Many people underestimate the difference between Taishanese and Cantonese.
It's really much different than Hailu Hakka vs Meixian Hakka, for example.

"People of Guangdong province" is, however, appropriate for them.
And "People of Guangdong province" includes Chaozhou and Hakka as well.

Chaozhou and Xiamen are significantly more intelligible than Taishan vs Cantonese.

 
http://zh.wikipedia..../wiki/四邑话
由於語音差距大,一般廣州人不經過適應不容易聽懂四邑方言,因此過去香港的四邑人一直保持與廣州人不同的族群認同。
The difference is very big, most Guangzhou people won't understand Siyi easily.
And it's not just what I read; I have heard the real thing, too, and indeed it sounds very different from Cantonese.

與其他族群一樣,說四邑話的家族於1970年代開始因族群觀念轉淡而改說廣州話。
Something that happened in the 70-es caused the loss of nationalism and switch over to Cantonese.
Of course, as they know little about the group they would "follow the book" and think that because it's also Yue branch then it's just like some variation of Cantonese. (which led to underestimation, which could ultimately lead to decline)

Actually I have met one person of Siyi ancestry who is "glad that his dialect is not very understandable" to HKers.

Apart from system of tones are different,cantonese generally has stronger tonal than mandarin, while mandarin has weaker and softer tonal than cantonese.

Still tonal. And, Cantonese has bigger proportion of flat tones.

Edited by qrasy, 20 May 2011 - 04:00 PM.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the liedeliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK

One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas. - Neil deGrasse Tyson

#12 TaishanLOVE

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 06:59 PM

Many people underestimate the difference between Taishanese and Cantonese.
It's really much different than Hailu Hakka vs Meixian Hakka, for example.

"People of Guangdong province" is, however, appropriate for them.
And "People of Guangdong province" includes Chaozhou and Hakka as well.

Chaozhou and Xiamen are significantly more intelligible than Taishan vs Cantonese.
http://zh.wikipedia..../wiki/四邑话
由於語音差距大,一般廣州人不經過適應不容易聽懂四邑方言,因此過去香港的四邑人一直保持與廣州人不同的族群認同。
The difference is very big, most Guangzhou people won't understand Siyi easily.
And it's not just what I read; I have heard the real thing, too, and indeed it sounds very different from Cantonese

與其他族群一樣,說四邑話的家族於1970年代開始因族群觀念轉淡而改說廣州話。
Something that happened in the 70-es caused the loss of nationalism and switch over to Cantonese.
Of course, as they know little about the group they would "follow the book" and think that because it's also Yue branch then it's just like some variation of Cantonese. (which led to underestimation, which could ultimately lead to decline)

Actually I have met one person of Siyi ancestry who is "glad that his dialect is not very understandable" to HKers.

Still tonal. And, Cantonese has bigger proportion of flat tones.


http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Taishanese


Most Siyi people in Guangdong regard their own tongue as merely differently accented Cantonese.My grandfather and grandma speak taishanese,even they think there isn't any other dialect that is much easier to understand than cantonese.I'm confident that I can understand at least about 60% of taishanese on average.

I think every dialect has difference,for example even mandarin mainland chinese speakers find it very difficult to understand taiwanese mandarin speakers,but regardless both are still classified as mandarin dialects.If you think there is an big difference between cantonese and taishanese,than the difference with other dialects should be thousands times greater.At least when I listen to my grandparents speaking taishanese I could understand from 60-70% of conversation,sometimes when it get's difficult about 40-70%.But this is something I could never do in any other chinese dialects that I've heard.And taishanese are not the only yue chinese dialect that is different from hong kong cantonese,
dongguan,guangzhou,fonshan cantonese dialect also have some differences from hong kong cantonese.Apart from the other yue chinese dialects I can also understand about 20% of hakka.

#13 TaishanLOVE

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 07:30 PM

Taishanese linguistically preserved many characteristics of Middle Chinese like cantonese but preseverd more than cantonese,especially compared to mandarin. This is why many tang poems still rhymes better in taishanese and cantonese.Another reason why taishanese is different from other cantonese dialects is most likely due to hakka influence( aswell cantonese influence on hakka).Anyway regardless I don't think anyone can argue that taishanese is more closer to cantonese than any other dialects.Our phonology,grammars,word bear so much resemblance compared to any other chinese dialect.

Apart from taishan, other cantonese dialects ain't exactly 100% intelligible either but I'll say guangzhou cantonese is 80% intelligible with hong kong cantonese.Foshan cantonese is 70% intelligible with hong kong cantonese, and toishan cantonese is 60% intelligible with hong kong cantonese.

#14 qrasy

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 08:29 PM

Most Siyi people in Guangdong regard their own tongue as merely differently accented Cantonese.

Has there been a survey or something?
And is it only those living in Hong Kong?

My grandfather and grandma speak taishanese,even they think there isn't any other dialect that is much easier to understand than cantonese.

Cantonese is language of the provincial capital. It is common for people in Guangdong province to actually learn to speak Cantonese; it's very different case if you compare things systematically (rather than "by ear alone").

And it's also common for people in Rongxian, even though Rongxian dialect is not understandable to Cantonese (except after training of finding similarities/differences).

I'm confident that I can understand at least about 60% of taishanese on average.

At least when I listen to my grandparents speaking taishanese I could understand from 60-70% of conversation,sometimes when it get's difficult about 40-70%.

There is a difference between average Cantonese and people who have listened for a real long time (e.g. a few hours of exposure, especially if the listeners got some explanations).

For usual people, it's around 30% after including lucky guesses. http://www.als.asn.a...s2000/szeto.pdf

I think every dialect has difference,for example even mandarin mainland chinese speakers find it very difficult to understand taiwanese mandarin speakers

In contrary, it is very easy for them to understand each other apart from some slangs.
And I have seen Mainland and Taiwanese Mandarin speakers getting together for the first time without any real problem.

You can still find things that are not understandable between them.
1. Taiwanese Hakka or Minnan is not understandable to Mainland Mandarin.
2. Real Beijinghua is different from Putonghua.
3. Simplified Chinese is often hard to understand for Taiwanese.

If you think there is an big difference between cantonese and taishanese,than the difference with other dialects should be thousands times greater.

Of course, I am not comparing with Wenzhouhua or Fuzhouhua.

And taishanese are not the only yue chinese dialect that is different from hong kong cantonese,
dongguan,guangzhou,fonshan cantonese dialect also have some differences from hong kong cantonese.

While Guangzhou one is nearly identical, >90% understandable.

Apart from the other yue chinese dialects I can also understand about 20% of hakka.

Then this is unlike average people.
There's a Minnan speaker that claim to understand 25% of Cantonese with very little study. Obviously ordinary Minnan speakers will have to systematically learn/compare to really get to such an extent.

Edited by qrasy, 20 May 2011 - 10:55 PM.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the liedeliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK

One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas. - Neil deGrasse Tyson

#15 qrasy

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 08:32 PM

Taishanese linguistically preserved many characteristics of Middle Chinese like cantonese but preseverd more than cantonese,especially compared to mandarin.

Depends on which aspect. Taishanese initials are often more distorted than Mandarin, for example 天=hen (t->h).

This is why many tang poems still rhymes better in taishanese and cantonese.

This is about rhyme splitting, not rhyme preservation.
For example, if Actual Middle Chinese in:in
Dialect A - in:en
Dialect B - an:an
Dialect B rhymes them better (sounds closer to original) even though Dialect A preserves the rhymes better (both words equally distorted).
There is the example of 新:人.

Another reason why taishanese is different from other cantonese dialects is most likely due to hakka influence( aswell cantonese influence on hakka).

There are numerous local innovation like the t->h, d dropped, not seen in Hakka.

Anyway regardless I don't think anyone can argue that taishanese is more closer to cantonese than any other dialects.Our phonology,grammars,word bear so much resemblance compared to any other chinese dialect.

There are even non-Guangfu Yue dialects that are more understandable than Taishanese, for example are some of the Yue dialects found in Guangxi (Beihai, Qinzhou, Yong-xun).

Apart from taishan, other cantonese dialects ain't exactly 100% intelligible either but I'll say guangzhou cantonese is 80% intelligible with hong kong cantonese.Foshan cantonese is 70% intelligible with hong kong cantonese, and toishan cantonese is 60% intelligible with hong kong cantonese.

Not for average people. I have not heard Foshan myself to judge anything.

There are neither phonetic nor grammatical difficulties for Hongkongers to understand Guangzhou; the core words are the same. Only slangs that sometimes appear and make people feel "lost" even though they understand the rest of the sentence (i.e. they feel that they understand little while in reality they understand almost all of the words).

Edited by qrasy, 20 May 2011 - 08:49 PM.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the liedeliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK

One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas. - Neil deGrasse Tyson




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