I do read classics, but mostly western. I'm trying to finish a PDF of a long lost early zhou classic of the fall of the shang before christmas (yes you all will get it, the actual text I'm basing this on is public domain).
I'm as a result just focused obviously on Shang-Zhou relations. I only have a background in primary sources I find relating to the data in the text. Qin isn't mentioned obviously (text is quoted by Aristotle, so before Qin Dynasty), but it claims King Wu after his defeats (he and Jaing Ziya got their butts kicked over three years repeatedly prior to breaking into Emperor Zhou's brother-in-laws camp during a drunken victory celebration that was obviously premature, resulting in two defeats on the horrific retreat back to yinxu).
The text claims King Wu was able to get reinforcements to Lord Shang to join him in exchange for freedom.... I'm stumped in trying to figure out exactly who this is as I've seen outside of Shang and Zhou lands a few areas in China urbanized and therefor capable.
I know that sounds like nonsense, as it doesn't match up with the Confucian modified history of King Wu winning so easily, but luckily other contemporary civilizations kept records, and Emperor Zhou was too good of a story not to tell. I'll make it available very soon,and it will be open up to debate here..... I just need it to be researched a bit more, as I'm a perfectionist when it comes to final products.
I'm just fact checking here, in a painful rush. I want thus out before the new years, as I have other stuff involving Roman Philosophy I feel is more important to deal with. I'm proud of the discovery, but it's beyond my comfort zone.... I can quote sun tzu by heart, know the seven military classics, a little Mencius and Confucius, Mozi, Hundred Unorthodox Strategies, but I don't have the morphology of Chinese territories correlating with various historians in my head yet.... much less philosophical movements arising from it, like I do western world. So you can say "read the classics" but know I read western ones as my specialty, and got one chinese one no living chinese scholar realized has sat around in the west for thousands of years.
So.... I'd deeply appreciate knowing just which primary source (the original book written in antiquity) that the claim the Qin made this in, as I'm only aware of Zhou being understudies of the Shang, and not another royal branch. I'd like to confirm.
I'll do research on them from the info you gave me to see if they match up to what is mentiond in the lost annal. The translation went through several hands from chinese to greek, they get alot in agreement with emperor zhou, very good collaborated details.... but they just slapped any ol name for location, as they thought it happened in the west. So my main guess work is locations, as someone living in ancient greece obviously couldn't make sense of the geography that the various battles took place in.
It's also hard to date this too, it's definately Zhou era this was written in, but it has alot of painfully embarrassing details about how very close King Wu came to giving up. The modern texts I find in Chinese just claim the alliance forded a river, lined up the chariots, and king wu just said "maybe later" and three years later won a single battle, Muye. I know better now, but not that much better.... trying to find locations are hard.
I know from documentries a southern people near Zhou lands lived, the made metal trees with birds in them, and the Zhou Dynasty launched a attack on them three years after Shang fell. I thought maybe it could be them (Shu I think they were called) or the Qin lands....
And you mentioned San-Miao.... I was reading in a online translation of Shu Shang (I think) of a Lord of Miao who was invaded by a coalition during the Shang Dynasty. They dried to subdue him for 30 years, and failed.... then plucked a chicken of it's feathers, and started dancing with them between two staircases. This got Lord Miao to give up and surrender..... it's the only placename you mentioned I recognize from the books, and only because of how absurd the ritual was and what it sought. It makes me wonder why the United Nations didn't pluck chicken feathers and dance in the general assembly to end wars too.
I also know Rong means barbarian, Jiang Ziya was attacked by them after his return to Qi (my text says by boat, with the stolen gold and silver from the funeral pyre, but chinese sources say he walked).
I don't really get what made a Rong a Rong though..... wouldn't Zhou and these proto-Qin be Rong too?
Edited by Onasander, 14 December 2014 - 09:48 PM.