Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Features of Ancient Chinese Upper Class


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 Hansaram

Hansaram

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 335 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:East Asian History, European History, Ancient Civilizations
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Korean
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Asian History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:05 PM

It's always been on my mind what ancient Chinese upper class looked like. I wonder if there is a way to approximate this using various different sources, then find pictures of modern people who closely fit the profile. Any ideas?


Edited by Hansaram, 23 April 2013 - 09:05 PM.


#2 mohistManiac

mohistManiac

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 3,576 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Mythology
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:33 AM

You need facial reconstruction.  For that you can go into archaeology.  That's how they found King Tut as a boy and professional reconstructors used biological science to show what he looked like.  There is only one source for this, the grave.


I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.

#3 Hansaram

Hansaram

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 335 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:East Asian History, European History, Ancient Civilizations
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Korean
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Asian History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:45 PM

If we only relied on archeology, we would be forced to rely on a small number of samples, which could mislead us.

 

That's not the only way. You could count the occurrence of specific features in known upper class descended people. Form a tally of features to approximate the look of ancient Chinese nobility.

 

We could look at past standards of beauty. Or Portraits.



#4 mohistManiac

mohistManiac

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 3,576 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Mythology
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:27 PM

How in the world is that misleading?  You are looking directly at a royal when you dig one out of the grave.  A skeletal frame precisely.  Not a facsimile.  Of course I did speak too soon when I said that it is the only source.  But it is the only source for facial reconstruction that I know of that can be accurate.  It accounts for disease peculiarities hair loss etc.  One could look at some portraits done when they were alive.  It depends on how ancient you want to go and whether there are enough portraits.  Lady Dai for example of Mawangdui burial site did not have a chance to get her portrait.  Her reconstructed face however is more than enough.  Of course even this can be airbrushed to perfection as well.  The autopsy showed Lady Dai was fed on too rich a diet and most probably died of cardiovascular disease.  Her actual corpse reflects this since it was preserved so well everything was still intact but I dare not show it here.

 

768px-Xin_Zhui_1.JPG


Edited by mohistManiac, 24 April 2013 - 02:58 PM.

I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.

#5 Hansaram

Hansaram

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 335 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:East Asian History, European History, Ancient Civilizations
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Korean
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Asian History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:32 PM

If our methodology relies on a large number of available samples, it mitigates the impact of hoaxes. If we rely solely on a couple of skeletons or mummies, it's easier for people with agendas to distort our conclusions with false evidence.


Edited by Hansaram, 24 April 2013 - 05:52 PM.


#6 mohistManiac

mohistManiac

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 3,576 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Mythology
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:54 PM

I'm not sure I follow.  Royalty that comes from the ground is obviously the few that have been risen to society's top.  If you don't rely on those couple of skeletons and mummies, what will you rely on for the supposition of royalty?  The subjective artwork of people that resulted from mass consumption of the royalty?  There was none.  There were no magazines of the period people were generally supposed to shy away from royalty and kow tow.  You don't make sense Hansaram.

 

The reconstruction of a face is as close as one can get.  Granted the person reconstructing the face could make the face somewhat more pleasing than would be necessary under the most strict guidelines of reconstruction but the basic skeleton is what one works off of.  Making someone look more robust and fat when they were skinny and bones in life and making someone look thin and gracile when they were fat to the extreme.  These are what come to my mind but I can't see them to be hoaxes.  A hoax would be if you were to pull up a peasant skeleton and use that as a stand in and refuse to tell the public you were using a stand in.


Edited by mohistManiac, 24 April 2013 - 06:24 PM.

I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.

#7 Hansaram

Hansaram

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 335 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:East Asian History, European History, Ancient Civilizations
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Korean
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Asian History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:37 PM

I'm not sure I follow.  Royalty that comes from the ground is obviously the few that have been risen to society's top.  If you don't rely on those couple of skeletons and mummies, what will you rely on for the supposition of royalty?  The subjective artwork of people that resulted from mass consumption of the royalty?  There was none.  There were no magazines of the period people were generally supposed to shy away from royalty and kow tow.  You don't make sense Hansaram.

 

The reconstruction of a face is as close as one can get.  Granted the person reconstructing the face could make the face somewhat more pleasing than would be necessary under the most strict guidelines of reconstruction but the basic skeleton is what one works off of.  Making someone look more robust and fat when they were skinny and bones in life and making someone look thin and gracile when they were fat to the extreme.  These are what come to my mind but I can't see them to be hoaxes.  A hoax would be if you were to pull up a peasant skeleton and use that as a stand in and refuse to tell the public you were using a stand in.

Sorry if I'm not making sense. I'll try harder to make sense to you, but you're going to tell me why I'm not making sense. I don't get why its so hard for you to understand what I'm saying. Am I making grammar errors? Is my logic the problem? Communication? Lack of knowledge? Do you think I am making up nonsense? Is it my reading comprehension?

 

What don't you understand about a hoax distorting conclusions?

 

Honestly, I think your jealousy against me is going too far.


Edited by Hansaram, 24 April 2013 - 07:02 PM.


#8 mohistManiac

mohistManiac

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 3,576 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Mythology
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:03 PM

Sorry if I'm not making sense. I'll try harder to make sense to you, but you're going to tell me why I'm not making sense. I don't get why its so hard for you to understand what I'm saying. Am I making grammar errors? Is my logic the problem? Communication? Lack of knowledge? Do you think I am making up nonsense? Is it my reading comprehension?

 

What don't you understand about a hoax distorting conclusions?

 

Honestly, I think your jealousy against me is going too far.

 

Honestly i am jealous Hansaram.  Please forgive me.  I'll make it up to you.  Would you like for me to say I totally understand everything that you say from now on?  Would you like that?  Will that make you feel better?  But I really am jealous Hansaram, you should enlighten the poor Chinese here a bit.  I really don't know what I'd do if you hadn't revealed all your superior theories.  Oh I feel as though we would never get enough of hero Hansaram's excellent theories.  He does such a service to mankind, doesn't he?


I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.

#9 YummYakitori

YummYakitori

    Prime Minister (Situ/Chengxiang 司徒/丞相)

  • Supreme Scholar (Jinshi)
  • 1,637 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Languages spoken:English, Mandarin, Hokkien, Teochew, Korean, Japanese, Mongolian (a bit)
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Han Chinese 漢族
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Asian History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Korean History 朝鮮歷史 조선역사

Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:10 AM

 
Honestly i am jealous Hansaram.  Please forgive me.  I'll make it up to you.  Would you like for me to say I totally understand everything that you say from now on?  Would you like that?  Will that make you feel better?  But I really am jealous Hansaram, you should enlighten the poor Chinese here a bit.  I really don't know what I'd do if you hadn't revealed all your superior theories.  Oh I feel as though we would never get enough of hero Hansaram's excellent theories.  He does such a service to mankind, doesn't he?

Hansaram, honestly stop claiming other people are jealous of you when obviously you don't have anything for people to envy about. Not only he can't understand what you are saying but neither can I.

Use simple English. We're not here to bombard one another with big words from the English language
Буурэг дэрсэнд уурэглэсэн бужин туулай нь ч амгалан Булээн нууранд нь ганганалдсан хотон шувууд нь ч амгалан Буувэй санаа нь ивлэсэн Бусгуй сэптгэл нь ч амгалан хонхон дуутай бойтгийг нь Цэцэг унсэх нь энхрийхэн хöгöн горхины урсгалд нь Цэнгэг хараахай зуггуйхэн Хиртэшгуй ариухан дагшинд нь Монголын узэсгэлэн яруухан

#10 YummYakitori

YummYakitori

    Prime Minister (Situ/Chengxiang 司徒/丞相)

  • Supreme Scholar (Jinshi)
  • 1,637 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Languages spoken:English, Mandarin, Hokkien, Teochew, Korean, Japanese, Mongolian (a bit)
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Han Chinese 漢族
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Asian History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Korean History 朝鮮歷史 조선역사

Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:25 AM

How in the world is that misleading?  You are looking directly at a royal when you dig one out of the grave.  A skeletal frame precisely.  Not a facsimile.  Of course I did speak too soon when I said that it is the only source.  But it is the only source for facial reconstruction that I know of that can be accurate.  It accounts for disease peculiarities hair loss etc.  One could look at some portraits done when they were alive.  It depends on how ancient you want to go and whether there are enough portraits.  Lady Dai for example of Mawangdui burial site did not have a chance to get her portrait.  Her reconstructed face however is more than enough.  Of course even this can be airbrushed to perfection as well.  The autopsy showed Lady Dai was fed on too rich a diet and most probably died of cardiovascular disease.  Her actual corpse reflects this since it was preserved so well everything was still intact but I dare not show it here.
 
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Xin_Zhui_1.JPG/768px-Xin_Zhui_1.JPG[/img]
Her actual corpse can't display her original face shape because she was somewhat fat at the time she died so her face looks broader to me. I remember they said they found watermelon seeds in Lady Dai's digestive system?

Lady Xin of Dais tomb was special, very special. It was richer than that of King Tuts tomb in Egypt. The contents of the tomb had not been pillaged by grave robbers remaining in pristine condition. The alchemist of 200 B.C. China had preserved Lady Xins body in a solution of formaldehyde and mercury which prevented bacterial and fungal growth on and in her corpse. Her body was so well preserved that scientist performed an autopsy on her to discover that she died at age 56 from a heart attack. Her body shows that she suffered from arthritis, arteriosclerosis, gall stones, and worms. She ate a diet rich in animal meat and pastry (After all she was the wife of high ranking official.) Apparently as her disease progressed she began seeking ways to help improve her health. Taijiquan became a daily exercise ritual to help relief her arthritis pain and restore her health. For Lady Xin it was too late. During a meal a watermelon seed became stuck in her bile duct and the painful condition caused her to have a heart attack.

And her corpse looks disgusting :P I just looked it up

Edited by YummYakitori, 25 April 2013 - 08:28 AM.

Буурэг дэрсэнд уурэглэсэн бужин туулай нь ч амгалан Булээн нууранд нь ганганалдсан хотон шувууд нь ч амгалан Буувэй санаа нь ивлэсэн Бусгуй сэптгэл нь ч амгалан хонхон дуутай бойтгийг нь Цэцэг унсэх нь энхрийхэн хöгöн горхины урсгалд нь Цэнгэг хараахай зуггуйхэн Хиртэшгуй ариухан дагшинд нь Монголын узэсгэлэн яруухан

#11 Hansaram

Hansaram

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 335 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:East Asian History, European History, Ancient Civilizations
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Korean
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Asian History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:30 AM

Hansaram, honestly stop claiming other people are jealous of you when obviously you don't have anything for people to envy about. Not only he can't understand what you are saying but neither can I.

Use simple English. We're not here to bombard one another with big words from the English language

That's excessively harsh for someone who isn't jealous. Also, you're 13 years old right? Aren't you being a bit insolent. :)

 

Remember we're in the anthropology section. That's a big word. Aren't you going to complain that the forum used a big word? Or better yet, why don't you use Google and expand your vocabulary rather than complain.


Edited by Hansaram, 25 April 2013 - 11:38 AM.


#12 Hansaram

Hansaram

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 335 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:East Asian History, European History, Ancient Civilizations
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Korean
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Asian History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:35 AM

Honestly i am jealous Hansaram.  Please forgive me.  I'll make it up to you.  Would you like for me to say I totally understand everything that you say from now on?  Would you like that?  Will that make you feel better?  But I really am jealous Hansaram, you should enlighten the poor Chinese here a bit.  I really don't know what I'd do if you hadn't revealed all your superior theories.  Oh I feel as though we would never get enough of hero Hansaram's excellent theories.  He does such a service to mankind, doesn't he?

Stop the distractions and explain what part of my post doesn't make sense to you. lol


Edited by Hansaram, 25 April 2013 - 11:40 AM.


#13 mohistManiac

mohistManiac

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 3,576 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Mythology
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 25 April 2013 - 12:08 PM

Stop the distractions and explain what part of my post doesn't make sense to you. lol

 

No Hansaram I am jealous of you.  You said it so you must be right.  Also I would like to hear your theories because they make the most sense.  You should write a book.


I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.

#14 YummYakitori

YummYakitori

    Prime Minister (Situ/Chengxiang 司徒/丞相)

  • Supreme Scholar (Jinshi)
  • 1,637 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Languages spoken:English, Mandarin, Hokkien, Teochew, Korean, Japanese, Mongolian (a bit)
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Han Chinese 漢族
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Asian History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Korean History 朝鮮歷史 조선역사

Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:49 PM

That's excessively harsh for someone who isn't jealous. Also, you're 13 years old right? Aren't you being a bit insolent. :)
 
Remember we're in the anthropology section. That's a big word. Aren't you going to complain that the forum used a big word? Or better yet, why don't you use Google and expand your vocabulary rather than complain.


I'm 14, that just proves how blind you are anyway. And how is that harsh. I didn't use any sort of vulgarity.

Anthropology is an acceptably "big" word. The words you use are excessively big like mitigation, stop acting like you aced all your tests in English
Буурэг дэрсэнд уурэглэсэн бужин туулай нь ч амгалан Булээн нууранд нь ганганалдсан хотон шувууд нь ч амгалан Буувэй санаа нь ивлэсэн Бусгуй сэптгэл нь ч амгалан хонхон дуутай бойтгийг нь Цэцэг унсэх нь энхрийхэн хöгöн горхины урсгалд нь Цэнгэг хараахай зуггуйхэн Хиртэшгуй ариухан дагшинд нь Монголын узэсгэлэн яруухан

#15 mohistManiac

mohistManiac

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 3,576 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Mythology
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:10 AM

I think its telling when people burn with admonishing anger to answre back.  In this case when I'm told that I'm jealous because I don't preplan for the discovery of hoaxes it's basically like telling archaeologists working in China to discontinue sharing their discoveries, any discovery at all.  Somehow it means they are jealous people that had the nerve to discover something that hadn't been found elsewhere.  When northerners discovered Anyang bronze and Qin terracotta it must have meant they were jealous of the south.  When southerners discovered Liangzhu jade and Mawangdui lacquerware it means they were jealous of the north.  :blink:


I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users