Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Claims of link between Koi fish and Confucious


  • Please log in to reply
7 replies to this topic

#1 snowybeagle

snowybeagle

    Sentinel of the Southern Star (鎮南星)

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 5,198 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History

Posted 18 April 2005 - 05:33 AM

Posted Image
I posted this in this folder rather than the pre-Qin folder because I doubt the authencity of the claim.

There is a vast shopping mall named Suntec City in Singapore. In one of the corners of the basement area, there is a Koi pond, which I suppose is being maintained by the adjacent store selling aquarium-related products.

The Koi fish is a species of the Carp, and is known as the Li (鲤) in Chinese.

In one of the larger boards next to the pond, it was claimed that the Koi originated from Persia, and was a gift by a Persian king to Confucious for the birth of his first son. I was extremely doubtful because I did not think even by his death was Confucious so famous and esteemed that a foreign king from thousands of miles away would send him a gift on the birth of the first son of Confucious.

But I thought better than seeking clarification from the store-owner. :no:

Then I found some websites reporting the same thing.

http://enkoi.com/koi/
http://www.sakks.co.... care part1.htm

Here is an excerpt:
Early records of Koi (Commonly known as Carp) date back some 2,500 years and actually originate from Eastern Asia in the Black, Azov, Caspian and Aral Seas - and from China, where the earliest written record of these fish is found. With the birth of the first son of the great Chinese philosopher Confucius (551-479?BC), he was presented with a Koi by King Shoko of Ro. Confucius named his son after this fish, as it was considered a symbol of strength; allegedly it was the only fish able to swim up the falls of the Yellow River In 533BC

Koi were introduced to Japan with the invading Chinese, and the first account of them being kept in Japan, apparently by the Emperor dates back to AD 200

In the 17th Century the rice farmers of Yamakoshigo, a village in the Niigata prefecture on the North Western coast of mainland Japan, introduced these carp into their irrigation ponds to supplement their diet of rice. Farmers found some carp with red markings and over time these were developed into the modern Nishikigoi. This led to the Niigata region becoming established as the centre of the Koi growing industry.


I want to seek if anyone can explain the origins of some of the claims.

Claim Number One : Confucious named his son after the Koi fish.

Confucious did have a son by the name of Kong Li (孔鲤).
http://www.gdjh.tcc....cai/01/t2-4.htm
http://www.kong.org.cn/index.htm

According to both
http://zh.wikipedia....org/wiki/孔鲤
http://www.hi.chinan...r/news/161.html
the boy was named after a carp fish presented to Confucious by Lord Zhao of Lu (鲁昭公).

Claim Number Two: The carp was from King Shoko of Ro

This implied that the carp was introduced to China from Persia.
I have no means of verifying this, though it was not impossible.
However, I could find no references on any King Shoko, nor what country Ro was supposed to be.


Claim Number Three: The carp was introduced to Japan during a Chinese invasion

One website claimed it was during the Mongol invasion
http://www.koiacres....oi-history.html but the same website claimed it was the Mongols who brought the fish to China during their invasion of China.

http://champkoi.com/koi/
also made a claim that the koi was introduced to Japan during Chinese invasion, and a first account of the fish being kept by an emperor of Japan dating back to AD 200.

I suppose there could have been an emperor in Japan in AD 200 but IIRC, written records in Japan only started from 6th century to the 8th century.

I wonder which Chinese dynasty had actually invaded Japan (other than the Yuan which was about 1,000 years after the purported koi being kept by an emperor in Japan).
Posted Image

Edited by snowybeagle, 18 April 2005 - 09:00 AM.


#2 tianzhuwoye

tianzhuwoye

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 334 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Heilongjiang University, Harbin
  • Interests:Northeastern history and historical linguistics, early Qing, Parhae, Koguryeo, Jin Empire, Tungusic languages, the Liao Empire, warring states, An Lushan, "ethnicity" and "race" as non-issues. Also beer, karaoke and fighting nationalism everywhere.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Tungusic history, Northeastern history

Posted 18 April 2005 - 07:39 AM

I have no historical truths to contribute here, but wanted to say that this is right up there with the greatest posts of all time. How well done is this?

King Shoko of Ro does sound like a seriously old skool romanization of 'King Zhaogong of Lu,' though, but it's probably just a take on the Japanese reading of his title.

Again, really nice work!
Posted Image

#3 snowybeagle

snowybeagle

    Sentinel of the Southern Star (鎮南星)

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 5,198 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History

Posted 18 April 2005 - 09:04 AM

King Shoko of Ro does sound like a seriously old skool romanization of 'King Zhaogong of Lu,' though, but it's probably just a take on the Japanese reading of his title.


You could well be right. I realised the same thing after submitting the post that Lu Zhao Gong could somehow be garbled into Ro ShoKo, in which case it was a misunderstanding that led to some people thinking it was a ruler foreign to China. There are also websites in Japanese which gave these names, but I don't read Japanese :(.

#4 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 18 April 2005 - 10:03 AM

Lu Zhaogong in the Japanese pronunciation is indeed Ro Shoko. I have no idea where the Persian king thing came from.

As for the koi being brought to Japan by an invading Chinese army, that's nonsense. It was obviously brought through trade or diplomatic exchange. As for accounts of a Japanese emperor in AD 200, the first Chinese record of Japan is from the Wei dynasty, after 220. And at that time, Yamato was supposedly ruled by a priestess-queen named Himiko.

The problem with commercial websites that try to talk about some history is that they usually repeat some groundless myths, which will then be repeated on some other website.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#5 AhMan

AhMan

    Grand Mentor (Taishi 太师)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 495 posts

Posted 18 April 2005 - 11:22 AM

nonsense! how could people write such crappy things? I wonder if Persia king even knew about the existance of a kingdom called China at that time.
한국아가씨아주섹시오

#6 Guest_spam_*

Guest_spam_*
  • Guest

Posted 26 July 2005 - 05:04 PM

my friend told me about this, i still have to thhink more about it

#7 DaMo

DaMo

    Prime Minister (Situ/Chengxiang 司徒/丞相)

  • Super Moderator
  • 1,755 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dubai
  • Interests:History, Philosophy, Law, Political Science, InfoTech
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Asian History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Prehistory, Early Imperial, Samguk

Posted 26 July 2005 - 06:19 PM

nonsense! how could people write such crappy things?

View Post

Or carpy things! :haha: :rolleyes: :P
"If an archeologist calls something a finial, he usually he has no idea what it is"
"We Vandals get blamed for stuff that was actually done by some errant Lombard or Visigoth"
"Nationalism is much about forgetting as it is about remembering"

China historical vacation 2011 photos and videos: http://www.chinahist...na-trip-photos/

#8 mamali

mamali

    Citizen (Shumin 庶民)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 2 posts

Posted 20 July 2006 - 06:22 PM

nonsense! how could people write such crappy things? I wonder if Persia king even knew about the existance of a kingdom called China at that time.


It was at that particular period that the word China (qin) was invented by the Persians. ~ (400-500 BC)So please get your facts straight.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users