Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Ming Princesses


  • Please log in to reply
32 replies to this topic

#1 RouLiuRen

RouLiuRen

    Provincial Governor (Cishi 刺史)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 48 posts
  • Location:New Mexico

Posted 25 April 2005 - 06:31 AM

Since most dynasties can't help but have a few daughters in the family line, does anyone know of a ming princess? :haha:
I know this isn't real, but can't we just pretend for a little while longer..

#2 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 25 April 2005 - 06:33 AM

Check out the story of this famous and tragic princess, the daughter of the last Ming emperor: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=1717
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#3 RouLiuRen

RouLiuRen

    Provincial Governor (Cishi 刺史)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 48 posts
  • Location:New Mexico

Posted 25 April 2005 - 06:44 AM

Thanks for that, but I meant is there other princesses or anything from the family? Any lessor know one but just as popular ones, don't ask me how that would work though :D
I know this isn't real, but can't we just pretend for a little while longer..

#4 Yue Fei

Yue Fei

    Commissioner (Shi Chijie 使持节)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 76 posts

Posted 05 June 2005 - 12:15 PM

Thanks for that, but I meant is there other princesses or anything from the family? Any lessor know one but just as popular ones, don't ask me how that would work though  :D

View Post


Have you heard of Princess Hang (or Han spelling) Li Po?

This princess was married to a Malaysian Sultan.
It's found in school history textbooks, used in Malaysia and Singapore.

#5 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 05 June 2005 - 12:34 PM

Unfortunately, there is no record of Hang Li Po (also known as Hang Liu) in Ming documents, and she is known only from Malacca folklore. It remains controversial whether she actually existed, but that hasn't stopped Malaysia from using her as a poster girl for Malay-Chinese harmony:
Hang Li Po - The Musical, now showing in Kuala Lumpur
http://www.kakiseni....tre/NTU2NQ.html

Some discussion of Hang Li Po from another forum:

http://www.asiawind....2&i=1560&t=1555

And one really far-out theory:

http://www.asiawind....2&i=4863&t=1555
(I'm reminded of Frank Wong and the Sassanians <_< )
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#6 Yue Fei

Yue Fei

    Commissioner (Shi Chijie 使持节)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 76 posts

Posted 13 June 2005 - 11:27 PM

Unfortunately, there is no record of Hang Li Po (also known as Hang Liu) in Ming documents, and she is known only from Malacca folklore. It remains controversial whether she actually existed, but that hasn't stopped Malaysia from using her as a poster girl for Malay-Chinese harmony:

View Post


Were there many Ming documentations of princesses?

#7 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 14 June 2005 - 08:46 PM

What is Frank Wong and the Sassanians?


Frank Wong/Wang was an internet writer who created a hoax article with a story that the daughter of the Sassanian Persian emperor Yazdegerd III had married Tang Gaozong (i.e. the husband of Wu Zetian). Quite a number of people believed him, including a Singaporean who joined this forum and promoted the story actively. I had a debate in which I demolished the credibility of Frank Wong and the article, but the member who had supported the theory got very hostile and had to be banned.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#8 Yue Fei

Yue Fei

    Commissioner (Shi Chijie 使持节)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 76 posts

Posted 15 June 2005 - 03:31 AM

increasing the chances that some would escape and fanqingfuming!!!

View Post


That idea did not arise till after the demise of the Ming dynasty. No that would not be a factor when they decide whether to record or omit certain things.

Anyhow, I'm not too sure about Han Li Poh apart from textbooks that were used for Cambridge exams.

#9 jiangji

jiangji

    Chief State Secretary (Shangshu Ling 尚书令)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 902 posts

Posted 16 June 2005 - 09:50 PM

Have you heard of Princess Hang (or Han spelling) Li Po?

This princess was married to a Malaysian Sultan.
It's found in school history textbooks, used in Malaysia and Singapore.

View Post



Yes, Malaysia history textbook claim Princess Hang Li po is real. However, if it is true, I would like to know why the Ming Emperor want to send his daughter to marry Malaysia sultan.
Detach from emotions and desires; get rid of any fixations.

#10 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 16 June 2005 - 11:37 PM

However, if it is true, I would like to know why the Ming Emperor want to send his daughter to marry Malaysia sultan.


That would be because Malacca was vital in the early Ming as a transshipment entrepot for spices from India. In fact, Ming China cultivated the rise of Malacca to replace the Arab network of direct spice shipping to the China coast that had collapsed during the fall of the Yuan dynasty.

What does 'Hang' mean in Malay? I have the impression that it is a title, for example in Hang Tuah and Hang Jebat. That's why I find the name 'Hang Li Po' to be very suspicious. 'Li Po' seems to be an old transliteration of the name of Tang poet Li Bai, and it's possible that the Malaccans just invented a name for their princess using a Chinese name that was familiar to them.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#11 Miborovsky

Miborovsky

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 353 posts
  • Location:Olympia, WA

Posted 17 June 2005 - 01:11 AM

That idea did not arise till after the demise of the Ming dynasty. No that would not be a factor when they decide whether to record or omit certain things.

Anyhow, I'm not too sure about Han Li Poh apart from textbooks that were used for Cambridge exams.

View Post


Surely there were farsighted individuals who realized the need for contingency plans... of course they can't say it out loud, thus the lack of records.
All characters and events in the above post -- even those based on real people -- are entirely fictional, and as such, should not be taken seriously, except in a fictional way. All facts are fabricated... poorly. This post contains extreme neo-contraantidisestablishmentarian political ideas and due to its contents it should not be viewed by anyone. The author is not responsible for any emotional stress, physical harm, international tensions or global thermonuclear war that may result from viewing this post.

#12 jiangji

jiangji

    Chief State Secretary (Shangshu Ling 尚书令)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 902 posts

Posted 17 June 2005 - 09:32 AM

That would be because Malacca was vital in the early Ming as a transshipment entrepot for spices from India. In fact, Ming China cultivated the rise of Malacca to replace the Arab network of direct spice shipping to the China coast that had collapsed during the fall of the Yuan dynasty.

What does 'Hang' mean in Malay? I have the impression that it is a title, for example in Hang Tuah and Hang Jebat. That's why I find the name 'Hang Li Po' to be very suspicious. 'Li Po' seems to be an old transliteration of the name of Tang poet Li Bai, and it's possible that the Malaccans just invented a name for their princess using a Chinese name that was familiar to them.

View Post



I don't know what its meaning, never heard about "Hang" being an title. :(
Detach from emotions and desires; get rid of any fixations.

#13 Yue Fei

Yue Fei

    Commissioner (Shi Chijie 使持节)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 76 posts

Posted 22 June 2005 - 11:18 PM

Yes, Malaysia history textbook claim Princess Hang Li po is real. However, if it is true, I would like to know why the Ming Emperor want to send his daughter to marry Malaysia sultan.

View Post


Speaking of inter-marriages, it was during Han dynasty, princesses were given to the northen tribes for marriage. Poilitical marriage to forestall their attack. Up till Qing dynasties it was in practice but I think in some of the dynasties in between it was used; including Ming.

As for political marriages with the Malayan Sultan, I believe it was mentioned Yun.

#14 Yue Fei

Yue Fei

    Commissioner (Shi Chijie 使持节)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 76 posts

Posted 22 June 2005 - 11:23 PM

Surely there were farsighted individuals who realized the need for contingency plans... of course they can't say it out loud, thus the lack of records.

View Post


Or, being a patriachal dynasty and society, importance in recording female names was not a high priority.

#15 Norey

Norey

    County Magistrate (Xianling 县令)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 7 posts

Posted 16 August 2005 - 09:36 AM

Check out the story of this famous and tragic princess, the daughter of the last Ming emperor: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=1717

View Post


My Grandfather's father's father - 18 generations dated to the Princess who married him. He was a scholar favored by the Ming Emperor who I am still researching about..but traditions among our clan groups remaind strong that the Princess come from the Ming Dynasty. Ou boys are all very handsome and our girls are PRETTY faced. Join us if you married one of our descendants!

Please got to read about this further in My Story about my Grandfather at


http://sgwiki.com/Th...he_Story_Part_6

Norey Oh 胡. ;) still visiting here as newbie
My Webpage

Welcome to visit at website on Singapore affairs!




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users