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Pictures of Japanese Wartime Atrocities


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#46 Liang Jieming

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 09:44 PM

Do you think Africa is Western?Maybe not in culture but at a map?So when you say the West and Westerners do you mean Africa too?

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Africa is complicated. It's a hodge-podge of civilisations thanks to Western colonialism in the 1800s-1900s and Islamic spread into the traditional African native cultures. Not sure if there is sufficient native African culture left to form a coherent "African Civilisation". African cultures are also so diverse that they can't be lumped into one all encompassing cultural label. Many Africans are now either Muslim, Catholic or some other Christian denomination and every other combination of religious dilution with the local shamanistic practices (like in South America). This was greatly aggrevated when Europeans started carving out spheres of influence amongst themselves, setting Africans against each other like the Tutsis and Hutus of Rwanda. They were the same people until the Dutch decided to define the taller, sharper features local people as Tutsis and gave them local power to run the government in a typical divide and conquer colonial practice.

African failure to define itself early as a strong culture coupled with it's proximity to the missionary Islamic and Christian cultural centres retarded any possible emergence of a similar "continent-wide" culture in Africa like Hinduism or Confucianism in India and East Asia respectively.

#47 USC

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Posted 13 May 2005 - 12:02 PM

Well, ask those NPR reporters, aren't they supposed to be both accurate and politically correct? They keep using "west," "westerners", and refer to the rest of world as "the third world countries". Never heard them mention second world.

Any way, to be born Chinese is a sin to some people in the U.S. Maybe I should start calling myself Zhejiangese or whatever, but not Chinese. I wonder what I have done or my ancestors have done that contribute to such negative perception. Sometimes, I understand why Hongkong, Taiwan people would rather not be addressed as Chinese. Well, I never really encounter blantant remarks about me as Chinese in daily life, but from the media and internet, there is plenty to swallow.  I am doing my part trying to instill in my firm a positive view about China and Chinese as whole.

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Thanx Kenneth for your understanding!!

Goujian,
You're right....it's almost like a sin being born Chinese or Jews especially in USA/Canada, and perhaps the American or Canadian are typically being whitewashed during the early 50's that Chinese are Jews of the Orient, and associated with communism that will eat u up of something.
i see less bashing against the Japanese, and may be they're richer, well dressed
business like, .....and fond of media manipulation ( I may be warned by Gubook again) that they're the actual victim of WW2.
it's only when you're outside of China, that you feel your patriotism grow!!

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#48 temujin77

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 09:30 PM

Any way, to be born Chinese is a sin to some people in the U.S. Maybe I should start calling myself Zhejiangese or whatever, but not Chinese.

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That comment is rather ignorant.

1. I am Chinese, I was born in Taiwan, the Republic of China.
2. I lived in three distinct locations in the US each with very different views on foreigners:
* Virginia, in the South that is traditionally white-dominant until the 1960s
* Illinois, in the mid-west, traditionally working-class
* New Jersey, metro area of New York City and very diverse and liberal
3. I consider myself someone who wishes to become someone regarded by others as an intellectual, and Chinese culture and position is the US society is something I pay particular attention and thoughts to.

With the three facts listed above, I will have to say that I have hardly met anyone who honestly-to-god say that to be born Chinese is a sin. Even the white supremecists only wrongfully believe that whites are superior to others, and the others are of a "lower breed" so to speak; I really don't truly believe that non-whites are actually sinners.

Ok, going back on topic.

The Rape of Nanjing was in my mind among the most terrible events in that period. And you know what, among what I consider the most terrible in that era, almost all of them involve the IJA. What indoctrinated the Japanese army lower ranks to commit such atrocities sure beats me, IJN seemed to be mostly free of such accusations (less opportunities to commit such atrocities, perhaps?). I really want to say that we cannot generalize. Not all Japanese soldiers in WW2 were evil. Just to name one fact, when the Japanese entered Singapore, one famed and unfortunate event was that the Japanese troops entered the Alexandra Hospital, and killed over 300 doctors, nurses, and patients, most by bayonets. When General Yamashita, the commander of the whole expedictionary army in British Malaya heard about the incident, he had the Japanese soldiers responsible for the attack executed at the hospital. Not all Japanese were evil, but I sure have to agree that there sure were plenty of evil ones.

Quite a few posts ago someone mentioned that Japan should never be allowed to be on the UN Security Council. My response to that is GROW UP! Japan is not ruled by Tojo anymore. Hirohito is not on the throne anymore. Japan is a democratic nation, a strong ally of democracy in Asia, a world leader politically and economically. Japan's self-defense fleet is again one of the largest navies in the world. The Japanese military cooperates with US forces, just off the top of my head, in Okinawa (with USMC) and Yokosuka (with USN) to protect the stability of the western Pacific region. It is ok to voice opinion that you do not wish Japan to hold a seat on the UN Security Council. But if you say that Japan should not be allowed due to horrible mistakes that their previous generation committed, then you're just being purely ignorant and really need to re-educate yourself a bit more.

I leave you with some food for thought: Do you feel ashamed that the Han Chinese had, throughout history, oppressed the Vietnamese people in the south and the nomadic tribes in the north and northwest? How would you respond if I come to you today and say China should give up its seat on the UN Security Council because of the CCP's continuous human rights violations (if not "atrocities") against the Tibetan people?

#49 Sephodwyrm

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 09:51 PM

I am sure that most people here believe that Japan is not allowed is not due to their mistakes of their previous generations, but how they are treating this mistake.

Your comments are irrelevant thus. I am also a Chinese born in the ROC and I personally felt that the way the Japanese government treat that part of their history does not give enough persuasion for me to allow them in the UNSC. In fact, I think what they're doing is enough persuasion to dissuade them from the UNSC.

Talking of which, if you can show photos of CCP atrocities of the Northwest or Tibet, I'll probably be a bit more convinced. If you come to me and tell me to kick China out of the UNSC, I would say that it is irrelevant and impossible because the position of China in the UNSC is paramount and critical in the interest of East Asian security.

The Rape of Nanjing was in my mind among the most terrible events in that period. And you know what, among what I consider the most terrible in that era, almost all of them involve the IJA. What indoctrinated the Japanese army lower ranks to commit such atrocities sure beats me, IJN seemed to be mostly free of such accusations (less opportunities to commit such atrocities, perhaps?). I really want to say that we cannot generalize. Not all Japanese soldiers in WW2 were evil. Just to name one fact, when the Japanese entered Singapore, one famed and unfortunate event was that the Japanese troops entered the Alexandra Hospital, and killed over 300 doctors, nurses, and patients, most by bayonets. When General Yamashita, the commander of the whole expedictionary army in British Malaya heard about the incident, he had the Japanese soldiers responsible for the attack executed at the hospital. Not all Japanese were evil, but I sure have to agree that there sure were plenty of evil ones.

The rape of Nanking is one of the numerous events of Japanese atrocities. The road to Nanjing was a road of pillage and burning, killing and raping. And yes Japan in WWII was a nation gone mad, with the sane thinking that they're the insane ones. The purpose of 731 is to give Japan the armanent to defeat the US, using Chinese, Koreans and Russian men as guinea pigs to weaponize bacteria to beat US to submission and a belief of racial superiority. I really do not want to generalize, since there were also reports of Japanese soldiers surrendering to the PLA and fighting for them. But guess what happened when Singapore was under Japanese rule? An estimated 5000-15000 Chinese males were gunned down along Changi Beach. The British and Anzac POWs were sent to build the Death Railway or worked to death in POW camps. As a measure of justice, Yamashita himself was hanged for war crimes.

Quite a few posts ago someone mentioned that Japan should never be allowed to be on the UN Security Council. My response to that is GROW UP! Japan is not ruled by Tojo anymore. Hirohito is not on the throne anymore. Japan is a democratic nation, a strong ally of democracy in Asia, a world leader politically and economically. Japan's self-defense fleet is again one of the largest navies in the world. The Japanese military cooperates with US forces, just off the top of my head, in Okinawa (with USMC) and Yokosuka (with USN) to protect the stability of the western Pacific region. It is ok to voice opinion that you do not wish Japan to hold a seat on the UN Security Council. But if you say that Japan should not be allowed due to horrible mistakes that their previous generation committed, then you're just being purely ignorant and really need to re-educate yourself a bit more.

My response to you is grow up. Japan is not under Tojo, Hirohito is not on the throne. But there are still a significant and politically influential group of Japanese that still worship them as their ideals. Japan is a democratic country, but is callous to the feelings of Koreans, Chinese, Malays throughout East and South East Asia. The fact that it is a democracy gives me an idea of how educated the Japanese people are generally about the sufferings they have caused in WWII, otherwise the actions of Koizumi in intruding upon ROC sovereignty and visiting the war shrine would have been stopped by the Japanese public. It is even more dangerous that democratic Japan is allowing such actions.

I leave you with some food for thought: Do you feel ashamed that the Han Chinese had, throughout history, oppressed the Vietnamese people in the south and the nomadic tribes in the north and northwest? How would you respond if I come to you today and say China should give up its seat on the UN Security Council because of the CCP's continuous human rights violations (if not "atrocities") against the Tibetan people?

I'll leave you with a thought myself. Give evidence that the Han Chinese have performed similar atrocities and cultural destruction of equal scale, and show me pictures of the oppression of the Northwest and Tibet, since I have only seen what the Tibetan "monks and liberal fighters" have done to captive PLA soldiers (skinning them and gouging out their eyes). I know China is pursuing a Drive to the West program to enrich these areas and spends a significant amount of money on cultural preservation. As for China's position on UNSC, it is a right and not a privilege, since China represents 1/5 of the people on this Earth.
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#50 temujin77

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Posted 16 May 2005 - 12:41 PM

Thanks for sharing your comments, Sephodwyrm.

Talking of which, if you can show photos of CCP atrocities of the Northwest or Tibet, I'll probably be a bit more convinced

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If I do, I'll be sure to share! Please do let me know if you find evidence either for or against such argument. After all, we're all here to learn.

As for China's position on UNSC, it is a right and not a privilege, since China represents 1/5 of the people on this Earth.

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Hm, our opinions seem to differ a bit. While I concur that China's presence at the UNSC is very important, I still view it more a privilege than right. Hard for me to explain, though it is likely the case that each of our fundamental beliefs in UN participation differ.

In any case, we digress.

Japanese atrocities were horrible and unacceptable, there's no argument against that and I don't believe any of us are actually on that side of the fence. Nevertheless, the fact that a society has committed mistakes one or two generations ago does not warrant the current generation to be punished. The fact that Japan as a society overall still has Tojo sympathizers matters little; every society has its bad apples and it is sometimes human nature to worship the powerful despite whether the powerful was good or evil. While we as Chinese people celebrate the successful conquests of _____ Dynasty (too many examples) southward even until today, Vietnamese history was full of examples of Chinese oppression (perhaps not "atrocities" though I may be wrong, but definitely "oppression") that some textbooks still outline today. Us as Chinese people are not being punished for past conquests, why should one apply similar sanctions against the Japanese?

The Japanese committed terrible acts during the war, and justice was served. Tojo was hanged and the Japanese government structure ripped apart and a western-ish one installed by MacArthur. The score was already settled, so is it fair for me to say "let the by gones be by gones and start off with a blank slate"?

#51 lobster

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Posted 16 May 2005 - 12:58 PM

The Japanese committed terrible acts during the war, and justice was served.  Tojo was hanged and the Japanese government structure ripped apart and a western-ish one installed by MacArthur.  The score was already settled, so is it fair for me to say "let the by gones be by gones and start off with a blank slate"?

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Same thing happened to Germany. Why do they have to go a step further? Why do they need to outlaw Nazi, educate their people properly of the truth and of their atrocities? Why does every German Chansellor have to bow before Holocaust the monument every year? Why do Jews worldwide keep educating their youths and monitoring the Neo-Nazis?

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Posted 16 May 2005 - 01:21 PM

so Japanese atrocities during WWII are just some oppressions comparable to what dynasty Chinese has done to Vietnam? Then imperial Britian and other Eurpean nations probably did worse to the colonies, why is Nazi Germany singled out? Shouldn't Germany cry that you British genocided native Americans, you should apologize to native Americans before we would apologize for those Nazis, the bad apples of Germany several generations ago?

I understand it is a very good argument to use from Japan's point that China has oppressed other countries so Japan's atrocities should be addressed only after China has faced its own history. I want to know what China in its 5000 year history has done to any other people that is comparable to what Japan did during the last century when humanity has evolved into more developed civilization. Please refer to those pictures.
BTW, there is statute of limitation at law, so Vietnam may not seek redress for whatever oppression Vietnam have sufferred a thousand years ago.

I also agree that a democratic Japan would elect a government that worship a shrine that hold war criminals is more dangerous than otherwise. So does democracy actually allow freedom of information and truth will prevail? Or is Japan really a democracy in the same sense as it should be according to the basic principles of this term?

#53 Kenneth

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Posted 16 May 2005 - 07:22 PM

temujin77,
although I appreciate most of your sentiments, including the rebuttal to the 'being Chinese is percieved as sin' nonsense........I disagree that justice was served in WW2.
If you are such a student of the period you must have realised many culpable war criminals were never prosecuted, not because of lack of evidence, but only a self-serving cold war vision by the US.
In many cases junior officers were hung for crimes of superiors, and pointing to the very visible Tojo is not the full story. The human viviesectionists working in Japanese hospitals, and the names of beastial forced labour overseers & murderers of civilians (both Asian & white) being honoured is not justice.

Without an admition that the terrible events that happened, and just a little repentance, there is no requirement to forgive.
The blinding of Japanese youth to their countries conduct is both an insult to the concept of 'history' and to those that lived it/suffered it.
I do agree that Japanese are not alone in historical wrongs, and China does have examples of mass murder in its long history also, but we are talking about living memory in this thread and the standards for what is acceptable have changed since in the last 300 years.
There is a 20th century notion of an act of war can become a crime against humanity, and I arent a smelly hippy, but I agree & justice has NOT been done by any standards.

Thanks for you views however, they are expressed in more depth than many here.
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#54 Guest_Goujian_*

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Posted 17 May 2005 - 10:55 AM

When i said to be born Chinese is sin I mean other people have very negative views about Chinese. I am proud of being Chinese and am not trying to separate myself from those drowned illegal immigrants, those penny earning "slave" labor. I share and sympathize with their hardship and I realize their image refect my image because people of today still tend to generalize based on race, gender, nationality...

Go visit Yahoo, you will know what most posts said about Chinese. I mean I would not imagine people could have those views, neither have I ever read such views on any other countries. I had never imagined my neighbors and friends here would actually think of me this way.

You would say Yahoo is just a trolling place, but I assume that most people who visit Yahoo to to have interest in international news are pretty educated and intelligent. Those people have such views about Chinese? Could you let me know what other majors news forums in other countries have so many racist remarks and "red comm**" remarks about Chinese or any other nationalities?

People would not speak their minds in public here due to various reasons, but I do trust that the dark and real attitudes surface online.

#55 Pingpong

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Posted 17 May 2005 - 01:44 PM

I am very much in favor of war conpensation. It means taxing those filthy rich corporations! hehe

#56 Lao Lu

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 08:02 AM

I am fairly new to CHF, so I haven't browsed through everything that is going on here yet, but in view of the recent events in China I have payed some attention to the japan related threads on this forum and what did I see: one thread closed for spreading hate, another with a warning to not continue spreading anti-semitism and I guess I haven't seen all of it yet.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in here for a round of CHF-bashing, I enjoy the debate going on, though I am not interested to engage in questions the sort of whether the Japanese have committed more atrocities than the Germans and I don't need pictures again to prove the point that it has been very bad indeed. I will be the last to deny it, but can we now focus on how to avoid it happens again please or on how to stop where it is happening ? Forgive me to say this, China, but if I had the power I would be abruptly turning away the attention of the world and world media from your lamenting the things of the past and switch it to Africa (Congo for one example) where exactly the same atrocities are going on as we speak, committed amongst others by children coerced to kill their relatives, their parents and all in the name of what ?? So for all those youths who think they have a point or are making a statement by throwing some bottles through Japanese shop windows or breaking eggs on the walls of the japanese embassy, I would say ... take a hard look around you and enjoy the fact that such kind of atrocity is not happening to you, right now, and that for you it is not more than a topic from the past that you have the liberty to discuss on how to integrate it in your country's history.

My post is not about forgetting and maybe not even about forgiving, as for those who had to live through those cruel times this may be one step too far. But let's face these facts:
1. Has Japan apologized in the past on it's behaving in WWII ? Yes, it has, on over 20 occasions by statespeople up to the Prime Minister, so let's forget about that "hiding their past"; it is there, in the open, for those who want to know about it. I admit that the yearly visit of government officials to the shrine for the war heroes is a sensitive issue that is debatable, though I would disagree with anyone stating that these visits are meant to compliment the deceased soldiers on the atrocoities they have committed. I am not familiar with Japanese traditions and with what is in effect going on during the ceremony at the shrine, but couldn't it be that by way of the ceremony the Japanese government is showing remorse towards it's deceased for the errors they have forced them to commit ? I'll be glad to learn more on this by people who have more information. I will definitely show no respect for any hardliner that wants to kick my butt for just raising this assumption.

2. Is there any imminent danger today that Japan may do the same again in the foreseeable future ? For those who have proof that they might, I say "out with it" so we may all start to believe that there is reasonable ground to mistrust each and every word of the Japanese. That there is again a military build-up in the country, I believe everybody is well aware of, but let's ask ourselves the question: if your (giant) neighbour is rapidly expanding it's military capabilities, if your neighbour is threatening with war against it's "renegade province" in the region, possibly entrailing the entire region in a military conflict of any kind, if North-Korea is testing it's latest "toys" and trying to show it still has muscle, is it then such a surprising reaction that Japan is trying to take some measures to protect itself ?

3. I believe getting them in the UNSC might not be such a bad thing, because then at least they have this supernational forum where they have to discuss with the Chinese on issues that go beyond the concern of just their nation and any discussion is better than no discussion at all ... or smashing some windows, for that sake.

#57 Klamath

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 08:23 AM

My post is not about forgetting and maybe not even about forgiving, as for those who had to live through those cruel times this may be one step too far. But let's face these facts:
1. Has Japan apologized in the past on it's behaving in WWII ? Yes, it has, on over 20 occasions by statespeople up to the Prime Minister, so let's forget about that "hiding their past"; it is there, in the open, for those who want to know about it. I admit that the yearly visit of government officials to the shrine for the war heroes is a sensitive issue that is debatable, though I would disagree with anyone stating that these visits are meant to compliment the deceased soldiers on the atrocoities they have committed. I am not familiar with Japanese traditions and with what is in effect going on during the ceremony at the shrine, but couldn't it be that by way of the ceremony the Japanese government is showing remorse towards it's deceased for the errors they have forced them to commit ? I'll be glad to learn more on this by people who have more information. I will definitely show no respect for any hardliner that wants to kick my butt for just raising this assumption.

2. Is there any imminent danger today that Japan may do the same again in the foreseeable future ? For those who have proof that they might, I say "out with it" so we may all start to believe that there is reasonable ground to mistrust each and every word of the Japanese. That there is again a military build-up in the country, I believe everybody is well aware of, but let's ask ourselves the question: if your (giant) neighbour is rapidly expanding it's military capabilities, if your neighbour is threatening with war against it's "renegade province" in the region, possibly entrailing the entire region in a military conflict of any kind, if North-Korea is testing it's latest "toys" and trying to show it still has muscle, is it then such a surprising reaction that Japan is trying to take some measures to protect itself ?

3. I believe getting them in the UNSC might not be such a bad thing, because then at least they have this supernational forum where they have to discuss with the Chinese on issues that go beyond the concern of just their nation and any discussion is better than no discussion at all ... or smashing some windows, for that sake.

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My answers here:
1. Japan did apologize to China, one apology, it slashed China's face, two more apologies, they slashed twice, and give another apology, and so on. How could chinese trust them?

2. You bash North-Korea, why would you do this? For the news and reports told you that they are gangster? That Japan is trying to take some measures to protect itself is merely an excuse,it is always distorting history and bringing unstable outside irritates to the penisulla as in history they were quite good at that. If North-Korea is really a "gangster", it was a gangster that been pushed to be crazy by Japan-Us.
Japanese didn't learn to be used to the rising of China, Why? Being afraid of revenge?

3. A fantacy. UN can't solve any problems between super powers as it had always been. If it could, there would not have Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq wars.
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#58 USC

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 10:48 AM

Klamath
I think you're right. Mr Kim only what to revenge the Japanese for what they did
to their country.....why Mr Kim never kidnap the Chinese in the past?? I think
the SKorean never make any noise with what Mr Kim did except his missle testing.
just to scare the Japanese. but i think the missle testing is counter productive!!
ie the Japanese also wanting to "re-arm" themselves. :blink: :blink:

Mr Kim is a cry baby as his country is left barren and no food.....nobody helps
except China???

#59 USC

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 11:06 AM

Lao Lu,
You sound exactly like Koizumi, the govt is here to show remorse to the deceased
that forced on you during the war.
actually nobody(country) is against the worship of deceased soliders who fought for their respective country, but on the other hand, the shrine did host 14 class-A war criminals who masterminded the massacres and invasions. CONFIRMED AND HANGED!!
you then asking the PM to worship them?? you must be joking or brainless

you're just like asking the German to erect a statue for Hitler and the PM pay homage, kneel everyyear to Hitler....another example somebody killed your father.....you become orphan being adopted by the killer's family when u r small, when you grow up...you come to know, but you still kneel and pray to the killer.....isn't that sound ridiculous??

I think it's time the Yasukuni shrine removed the 14 war criminals, then everyone
in there will be RIP haaha :lol: :lol:

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#60 adoo

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 01:05 PM

This is a history forum. Not a springboard for politcal debate.

if only you practice what you preach




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