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Genealogies of Chinese Dynasties


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#1 Guest_agullodaniel80_*

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 07:34 AM

I´ve been looking in the net for a good genealogy of the imperial chinese dynasties, but further from the Qing Dynasty (Manchu) I found nothing. I would really apreciate if some one coud help me to find a complete genealogy of the Ming Dynasty and of the descendants of Genghis Khan.

#2 tianzhuwoye

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 08:25 AM

Do you mean like a list of rulers? I don't think it's what you're looking for, but wikipedia has an enormous bear of a thing going on at
http://en.wikipedia....hinese_monarchs

Otherwise, you might be out of luck- When you say genealogy of the Ming, do you mean their 'ancestors?' The founder of the Ming State was a commoner and generally believed to be an orphan. Whatever records that exist regarding his family are probably going to be questionable at best. Or do you mean something more like a 'where are they now' kind of a thing? Wow, if Genghis Khan kicked like 780 years ago, how many generations is that? That's a whole lot of information to record and it'd probably be a good idea to assume that any results that somebody trying to trace his descendants comes up with should be used for entertainment purposes only. But it's a good point that people who can legitimately claim to be direct descendents of Genghis Khan gotta be out there somewhere.

Could you clarify the question? What specific information are you looking for? Thanks!
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#3 wlee15

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 02:12 AM

I believe that find a full family tree of the dynasties, ie. the other princes and their children.

#4 tianzhuwoye

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 03:45 AM

Hahaha, good point! duh....

Okay, so I'm starting to look around and off google i found the following link: http://www.chinesene...cials/5107.html

The link doesn't work and I was wondering if it's down or just blocked here (pretty possible since it appears to be written in traditional characters). Does this link work for anybody else?

The quote from google under this link is: "最大的儒伊合流大概得算是明朝。朱元璋就是个回民。据说他的族谱现在保存在美国。朱元璋的嗜杀就有伊斯兰教特征..." Whoever wrote this apparently feels that the Ming state was host to the most significant 'merging' between 'Confucianism' and Islam. They then go on to say "Zhu Yuanzhang was in fact a Muslim. His family tree is said to be kept in the United States. Zhu Yuanzhang's thirst for blood is characteristic of Islam..." then it's cut off and I can't get at the link from here.

Would anybody who has access to the rest of this mind telling me what the f is going on here?
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#5 Yun

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 09:29 AM

Ridiculous theory - in fact, Zhu Yuanzhang placed proscriptions on the practice of Islam because of the close involvement of Arab, Persian and Central Asian Muslims in the Yuan government. This was a major reason for the departure of Arab merchants from the Chinese ports after the Yuan.

Geneaologies of the various imperial houses, including all imperial princes and their descendants, would be very difficult to compile. The info's all there in text form in the histories, but drawing family trees is extremely tedious. I know - I've tried drawing one for the Sima house of the Western and Eastern Jin, and it's almost unreadable to anyone except myself. Branches going all over the page to try and find space.

But one day, when I publish my books, they will have neatly-printed family trees of all the important ruling and aristocratic families in the Age of Fragmentation!
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#6 tianzhuwoye

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 10:03 AM

Ridiculous theory - in fact, Zhu Yuanzhang placed proscriptions on the practice of Islam because of the close involvement of Arab, Persian and Central Asian Muslims in the Yuan government. This was a major reason for the departure of Arab merchants from the Chinese ports after the Yuan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


This makes a lot more sense than the couple lines I could see through google. Did you get to see the rest of the link? I'm super curious about what kind of position statements that bizarre were trying to support.

Getting down the family trees of of a period as, well, fragmented, as the Age of Fragmentation has got to be a task right up there with the biggest of the big pains in the booty, but you seem like the kind of guy who'd be able to pull it off. Good luck with it!
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#7 Guest_agullodaniel80_*

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 08:39 AM

Do you mean like a list of rulers? I don't think it's what you're looking for, but wikipedia has an enormous bear of a thing going on at
http://en.wikipedia....hinese_monarchs

Otherwise, you might be out of luck- When you say genealogy of the Ming, do you mean their 'ancestors?' The founder of the Ming State was a commoner and generally believed to be an orphan. Whatever records that exist regarding his family are probably going to be questionable at best. Or do you mean something more like a 'where are they now' kind of a thing? Wow, if Genghis Khan kicked like 780 years ago, how many generations is that? That's a whole lot of information to record and it'd probably be a good idea to assume that any results that somebody trying to trace his descendants comes up with should be used for entertainment purposes only. But it's a good point that people who can legitimately claim to be direct descendents of Genghis Khan gotta be out there somewhere.

Could you clarify the question? What specific information are you looking for? Thanks!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Actually, I´m looking for a complete family tree of both dynasties. It´s funny, but a found the family tree of the ancestors of Ghengis but not of his descendants. I´m working on a genealogical data base that includes lot of family trees, and not just from european ruling families, but from places like Madagascar, Ethiopia or Tonga. Luckily, I could find a good family tree of the Qing Dynasty (Manchu) in a site called "The Royal Ark", but it´s hard to believe that there´s no investigation of the genealogy of the one most remarkable chinese dynasties as the Ming was. What I´m looking for a completed family tree of the descendants of the first Ming emperor, or at list of those decendants that ruled China. Anyway, thank you for the link.

#8 Grand Genealogist

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Posted 01 May 2005 - 02:55 AM

I am interested in tracing several royal and noble families. I am particularly interested in the marriage of Tang and Han imperial princesses to foreign rulers or princes, and in the ancestry of the last kings of Wei, who were ancestral to the Imperial Han dynasty.

I am also looking for information on the ancestry of the Sui & Tang dynasties, and the Dugu clan, as well as the House of Tsui.
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#9 Yun

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 10:33 PM

Grand Genealogist has brought to my attention a very useful Japanese site that has genealogies of some Chinese dynasties in Chinese:

http://chozinn.hp.in...able/index.html

However, he needs help translating these genealogies for a Yahoo group on Oriental Royalty that he has: http://groups.yahoo....riental_Royalty

Grand Gen, are you T. Stanford M.S.P. Mommaerts-Browne, who produced the geneaology diagrams on your site? This is because we are currently debating on CHF the authenticity of the claim that Tang Gaozong had one of Yadzegird's daughters as a concubine, and this link is indicated on both the Tang and Sassanid genealogies made by Mommaerts-Browne. I would need to know whether this is based solely on the online article by Frank Wong, the credibility of which is now in serious doubt.

My specialty is the Age of Fragmentation, and I intend to write books in the future on this period. Geneaologies of the Tuoba, Dugu, Cui (Tsui), and Yang house of Sui will be included as appendices of these books. However, I have not yet compiled this information into a format that can be reproduced here.

I am also not sure about your statement that Dugu Xin's wife was from the Cui of Qinghe, or that these Cui were descended from the Warring States kings of Zhao. Could you elaborate on your sources for this? I have found no record about Dugu Xin's wife's family from his Zhou Shu biography, or Empress Dugu's biography.

BTW, Empress Dugu, wife of Yang Jian , had the Buddhist-inspired name of Dugu Qieluo. 'Wenxian' was only the posthumous title she was given - not her real name.
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#10 Grand Genealogist

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 01:07 AM

Grand Genealogist has brought to my attention a very useful Japanese site that has genealogies of some Chinese dynasties in Chinese:

http://chozinn.hp.in...able/index.html

However, he needs help translating these genealogies for a Yahoo group on Oriental Royalty that he has: http://groups.yahoo....riental_Royalty

Grand Gen, are you T. Stanford M.S.P. Mommaerts-Browne, who produced the geneaology diagrams on your site?


Oui, c'est moi.

This is because we are currently debating on CHF the authenticity of the claim that Tang Gaozong had one of Yadzegird's daughters as a concubine, and this link is indicated on both the Tang and Sassanid genealogies made by Mommaerts-Browne. I would need to know whether this is based solely on the online article by Frank Wong, the credibility of which is now in serious doubt.

Yes, I have been following same; and was planning on amending that error. The, aforementioned, charts are intended as spurs to further discussion and debate, and intended to be amended with such.

My specialty is the Age of Fragmentation, and I intend to write books in the future on this period. Geneaologies of the Tuoba, Dugu, Cui (Tsui), and Yang house of Sui will be included as appendices of these books. However, I have not yet compiled this information into a format that can be reproduced here.


Patience, I am told, is a virtue. But a hard one!

I am also not sure about your statement that Dugu Xin's wife was from the Cui of Qinghe, or that these Cui were descended from the Warring States kings of Zhao. Could you elaborate on your sources for this? I have found no record about Dugu Xin's wife's family from his Zhou Shu biography, or Empress Dugu's biography.


Vide supra. If this is, (malheurresment), wrong, it shall be removed.
Thanks for your response, Yun.

Edited by Grand Genealogist, 15 June 2005 - 06:35 PM.

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#11 Yue Fei

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 03:37 AM

Or do you mean something more like a 'where are they now' kind of a thing? Wow, if Genghis Khan kicked like 780 years ago, how many generations is that? That's a whole lot of information to record and it'd probably be a good idea to assume that any results that somebody trying to trace his descendants comes up with should be used for entertainment purposes only. But it's a good point that people who can legitimately claim to be direct descendents of Genghis Khan gotta be out there somewhere.

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For that matter, any descent of any monarchs would be difficult to trace, taking into account the size of their harem.

A Mongolian friend once told me the most common "surname"/family name in Mongolia is Khan! I wouldn't be surprise if they were all descended from the imperial Yuan or in some way related.

#12 lobster

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 09:49 PM

For that matter, any descent of any monarchs would be difficult to trace, taking into account the size of their harem.

A Mongolian friend once told me the most common "surname"/family name in Mongolia is Khan! I wouldn't be surprise if they were all descended from the imperial Yuan or in some way related.

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Ha! Would that be the same reason why the surname Wang 王 is most populous in Han chinese? ehhehe :P

#13 Yue Fei

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 01:52 AM

Maybe... ;)

#14 tuanoo1

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 10:35 PM

I wonder whether anyone would want to go back much earlier to investigate where were ancestors of the Chinese race or the race who later became Chinese came from. I was told these very people who later became the great people of Chinese were migrants from Mesopotamia. Can this be correct?

#15 Grand Genealogist

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 01:53 AM

I wonder whether anyone would want to go back much earlier to investigate where were ancestors of the Chinese race or the race who later became Chinese came from. I was told these very people who later became the great people of China were migrants from Mesopotamia. Can this be correct?

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Not my forté, but it is doubtful. This thesis was concocted to augment the credit for achievements of the White raceS. It is extremely bigotted, and comes from the same school of thought as 'The White-Man's Burden'.
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The good is oft interréd with their bones’
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