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Chinese Origin in the Bible?


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#151 Old Man

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:45 PM

Hello guys. Actually I think that in real life, why would Adam and Eve be in Jewish or Chinese land or anywhere else? The oldest bones have been found in Africa so in my perspective, I think they were in Africa.

But perhaps the oldest bones in Africa cannot really prove anything. There may be even older bones waiting to be excavated in China or anywhere else.

Speaking scientifically, Adam and Eve is probably just a Christian myth that they believe in. Every religion has their different views. :)

I personally follow Buddhism and don't believe in this myth. If the oldest bones were to be found in China one day, me likes :D

Personally, I think there are only several countries which are possibly the place where Adam and Eve appeared. Here they are.

1. China (For it has 5000 years of rich history)
2. Africa (Again, oldest human bones found)
3. Egypt (Oldest civilization in history)
4. Arctic (It may be arctic in modern day, but perhaps long ago it was somewhere closer to the equator and warm, probably here are human bones here waiting to be excavated)

5. Antarctic (It may be Antarctic in modern day, but perhaps long ago it was somewhere closer to the equator and warmer, bones here waiting to be excavated)
6. North Korea (Communist state, alot of things yet to be uncovered)
7. Cuba (Communist state)
8. Russia (It's land is so big, I'm sure these bones are hiding somewhere. And there are rumors saying that a hole dug in Siberia emits loud cries from hell and flaming tongues lashing out)

These are just what I think.




To date, Africa still holds the oldest human fossils in the world.

You may have read the following articles before from the websites which I find them very interesting:
1 http://anthro.paloma...homo/homo_2.htm: Homo erectus
2 http://heritage-key....t-africa-theory : (110,000-year-old Chinese Fossil Poses Challenge to 'Out of Africa' Theory).
3 http://news.national...africa-science/: Oldest Modern Human Outside of Africa Found. Chinese fossil challenges traditional early-human time line, study says.


As for the oldest civilization of the world, here are two website forums which discuss this thread. You decide which civilization is the oldest or accept Mesopotamia as the oldest.

A http://archive.world..._topic2391.html : Oldest civilization in the world?

Raygun Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 21:13:

Just a question.

If we adopt the "Out of Africa" theory of the evolution of man, then shldn't the Africans be the oldest people, and potentially the oldest
civilization? I said potentially 'cause I haven't read anything about any African ancient cities, but who knows....

Cheers”


B What is the oldest civilization in the world?? - Yahoo! Answers
answers.yahoo.com › ... › Mythology & Folklore
10 answers - 16 Nov 2006

Top answer: Mesopotamia Iraq now search about that in yahoo or google and give me 10 points!

What is the oldest civilization in the world?‎ - 7 Sep 2007
Korea, the oldest civilization in the wolrd! It seems that the ...‎ - 22 Jul 2006
Which is the oldest world civilization?‎ - 17 Apr 2006
Is the Indus valley civilization the oldest civilization of the ...‎ - 16 Dec 2005

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#152 Old Man

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 01:47 AM

Since this thread is about the “Chinese Origin in the Bible”, it would be incomplete without mentioning of the Vatican’s Pope Clement XI Decree on Shangdi上帝, Confucian ceremonies and the Chinese ancestor worship敬祖. The Decree of Pope Clement XI (1715) described in website: http://www.fordham.e...hineserites.asp is as follows:-

Modern History Sourcebook:
The Chinese Rites Controversy, 1715

“…

From Decree of Pope Clement XI (1715)

The Jesuits claim Chinese terms could be used to designate the Christian God and that the Confucian ceremonies were merely civil rites that Christians could attend and that Chinese ancestor worship was compatible with Christianity was condemned by Pope Clement XI in 1715.
Pope Clement XI wishes to make the following facts permanently known to all the people in the world....
I. The West calls Deus [God] the creator of Heaven, Earth, and everything in the universe. Since the word Deus does not sound right in the Chinese language, the Westerners in China and Chinese converts to Catholicism have used the term "Heavenly Lord" (Tianzhu 天主) for many years. From now on such terms as "Heaven" ( Tian ) and "Shang­ti" (上帝 Lord of Above / Supreme Emperor) should not be used: Deus should be addressed as the Lord of Heaven, Earth, and everything in the universe. The tablet that bears the Chinese words "Reverence for Heaven" should not be allowed to hang inside a Catholic church and should be immediately taken down if already there.
II. The spring and autumn worship of Confucius 孔夫子, together with the worship of ancestors 敬祖, is not allowed among Catholic converts. It is not allowed even though the converts appear in the ritual as bystanders, because to be a bystander in this ritual is as pagan as to participate in it actively.
III. Chinese officials and successful candidates in the metropolitan, provincial, or prefectural examinations, if they have been converted to Roman Catholicism, are not allowed to worship in Confucian temples on the first and fifteenth days of each month. The same prohibition is applicable to all the Chinese Catholics who, as officials, have recently arrived at their posts or who, as students, have recently passed the metropolitan, provincial, or prefectural examinations.
IV. No Chinese Catholics are allowed to worship ancestors in their familial temples.
V. Whether at home, in the cemetery, or during the time of a funeral, a Chinese Catholic is not allowed to perform the ritual of ancestor worship. He is not allowed to do so even if he is in company with non­ Christians. Such a ritual is heathen in nature regardless of the circumstances.
Despite the above decisions, I have made it clear that other Chinese customs and traditions that can in no way be interpreted as heathen in nature should be allowed to continue among Chinese converts. The way the Chinese manage their households or govern their country should by no means be interfered with. As to exactly what customs should or should not be allowed to continue, the papal legate in China will make the necessary decisions. In the absence of the papal legate, the responsibility of making such decisions should rest with the head of the China mission and the Bishop of China. In short, customs and traditions that are not contradictory to Roman Catholicism will be allowed, while those that are clearly contradictory to it will not be tolerated under any circumstances.
From China in Transition, 1517­1911, Dan. J. Li, trans. (New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1969), pp. 22­24

From Decree of Kangxi (1721

The Kangxi emperor was not happy with Clement's decree, and banned Christian missions in China.
Reading this proclamation, I have concluded that the Westerners are petty indeed. It is impossible to reason with them because they do not understand larger issues as we understand them in China. There is not a single Westerner versed in Chinese works, and their remarks are often incredible and ridiculous. To judge from this proclamation, their religion is no different from other small, bigoted sects of Buddhism or Taoism. I have never seen a document which contains so much nonsense. From now on, Westerners should not be allowed to preach in China, to avoid further trouble.
From China in Transition, 1517­1911, Dan J. Li, trans. (New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1969), p. 22.” Unquote

The proclamation of the Pope’s decree resulted Kangxi 康熙 placing a ban on Christianity. His successor Yongzheng 雍正 intensified his father’s ban by ejecting all missionaries, closing down all churches and ordering Chinese Christians to renounce their beliefs or face death. The greatest oppression on Christianity, however, came from Yongzheng’s son Qian Long 乾隆. During Qian Long's 60 year reign, almost no Chinese dared to claim being a Christian in public. The ban lasted for about a century.

#153 Old Man

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 12:23 AM

Previously posted as #153 on 10 November 2011 - 06:31 AM

Tablets of Huangtian Shangdi (皇天上帝) and former eight emperors in The Temple of Heaven

According to Beijing Tour Guide website, http://www.chinatourguide.net/3_9.htm , Huangtian Shangdi 皇天上帝 tablet was flanked by the tablets of the first eight Qing Dynasty emperors from Nurhachi to Daoguang in the Temple of Heaven. Hence, the eight former Qing emperors in the tablets would be:

1. Nurhaci 努爾哈赤 (Tàizǔ 太祖), 1616-1636 (Last king of Jin 金国 nation)

2. Huang Taiji 皇太極 (Tàizōng 太宗), 1626-1643 (Founder of Qing Dynasty)

3. Shunzhi Emperor 順治, 1643-1661 (The first Qing emperor in China)

4. Kangxi Emperor 康熙, 1661-1722

5. Yongzheng Emperor 雍正, 1722-1735

6. Qianlong Emperor 乾隆, 1735-1796

7. Jiaqing Emperor 嘉慶, 1796-1820

8. Daoguang Emperor 道光, 1820-1850


Any traditional Chinese will know among the selected emperors’ ancestral godly tablets, there must be a central or main ancestral godly tablet (祖仙神位 “Zuxian Shen-Wei”) representing all the past ancestors of the emperor and that tablet in Qing Dynasty was 皇天上帝 Huangtian Shangdi tablet (interpreted as Heavenly King [Kings] by Beijing Tour Guide. This confirmed that the Temple of Heaven was built by the Ming as an Ancestor Temple to house the main ancestral (祖仙神位 “Zuxian Shen-Wei”) and their selected past emperors’ (先帝神位) tablets for worship. When the Ming was sacked, the Qing Emperor replaced Ming’s ancestral tablets with their own main ancestral tablet and gradually installed their selected emperors’ tablets alongside with the 祖仙神位 “Zuxian Shen-Wei” called 皇天上帝Huangtian Shangdi.

Nurhaci and Taiji were not the Qing Emperors of China but were so highly regarded by the Qing Emperor in China as their founding emperors of the Qing Dynasty that they earned their places in the Temple of Heaven. Nurhaci 努爾哈赤 was called Tàizǔ 太祖 and Huang Taiji 皇太極 as Tàizōng 太宗. Actually, the installation of emperors’ tablets was in accordance to seven (7) past emperor godly tablets of a dynasty in ancient times (refer to my previous post in ( http://www.chinahist...ai/page__st__75 #80) because Huang Taiji 皇太極 was the founder of the Qing Dynasty, thus resulting seven (7) past emperors of the Qing Dynasty. Huang Taiji’s father Nurhaci 努爾哈赤, the last king of the Jin 金国 nation laid the strong foundation for Huang Taiji 皇太極 to form the powerful Qing Dynasty that he was too important for the Qing Emperor’s family to ignore their beloved ancestor resulting eight (8) past emperors’ tablets in the Temple of Heaven.

Edited by Old Man, 28 May 2012 - 12:25 AM.


#154 Old Man

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 12:28 AM

Previously posted as #157 on 19 November 2011 - 06:53 AM

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/User/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image002.gif #155 shunyadragon, on 10 November 2011 - 02:16 PM, said:
“Confucianism is far from being theistic much less monotheistic. It is basically monist belief system based the hierarchy of generations. Actually it is misunderstanding from the western perspective that Chinese worship their ancestors. The do not, they honor them in a continuum of all generations living and non-living”. Unquote

According to Oxford’s dictionary: “Worship” involves “religious rites orceremonies, constituting a formal expression of reverence for a deity [spirit]” whereas “honour” show respect towards; "honor your parents!"

Please explain how the Chinese honour their ancestors in a continuum of all generations living and non-living and not worshipping them?

In any religion, there is always different interpretation of the religion; some will be skeptics while others believers.

Confucianism is no difference. Some regard Confucianism as a philosophy, while others as monotheism, polytheism or pantheism but to the traditional Chinese, they worship their ancestors.

Likewise, in Judeo-Christian belief, Jesus is worshipped by Christians but not worshipped by the Jews (as in Judaism) nor honoured him. However, Jesus is honoured as a prophet by Islam. Virgin Mary is worshipped by the Roman Catholics but honoured by the Protestants.

For atheists, all gods including the Bible god are imaginary.

Edited by Old Man, 28 May 2012 - 12:30 AM.


#155 Old Man

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 12:31 AM

Previously posted as #159 on 19 November 2011 - 11:42 PM

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/User/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image002.gif “mohistManiac, on 19 November 2011 - 05:46 PM, said:
The Jesuits debated this for about a century known as the Chinese Rites Controversy. The pope had all the religious power and made demands that the Chinese stop ancestor worship.

http://en.wikipedia....tes_controversy
Unquote


What sort of religious power that the pope had to make demands that the Chinese stop ancestor worship? The answer is none.

#156 Old Man

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:09 AM

Previously posted as #160 20 November 2011 - 12:07 AM


#156shunyadragon, on 10 November 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:
This the common misconception from the perspective of ancient world views that do not take the effort to understand science. Evolution is neither simply a theory nor fact. It is the best scientific understand of the history of life including humanity. The theories that over the years have been proposed to support evolution have never been falsified, or from the layman's perspective been found wrong.

The misinformation of simply labeling evolution as fact, is misleading from the layman's perspective. Yes, evolution is based on objective facts and theories and hypothesis that are capable of being falsified by scientific methods.

The existence or none existence of God is not related to the argument for or against science of evolution”.
Unquote


There are two Forums which had comprehensive discussions on the subject of the “Creation/Evolution Controversy”.
1. a) Talkorigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy: http://www.talkorigi...-evolution.html

B) Index to Creationist Claims: http://www.talkorigi...dexcc/list.html

2. Creation vs. Evolution: http://www.gtplanet....ead.php?t=51448


I think they are darn good. You be the judge on these threads.

#157 Old Man

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:19 AM

Previously posted as #162 on 22 November 2011 - 11:58 PM


#161 “mohistManiac, on 20 November 2011 - 05:04 AM, said:
How do you come to that conclusion?

The pope wouldn't make religious intolerance claims like those if his seat of power actually meant nothing to the religious hierarchy he represented. The papacy then claimed after 2 centuries of this ban on ancestor worship that it was okay to do it and be Christian at the same time”.
Unquote


That wasn’t you wrote in your previous post. What you wrote was “…The pope had all the religious power and made demands that the Chinese stop ancestor worship”.

What jurisdiction did the Pope had over China; a foreign nation and not even a Christian nation? When Pope Clement XI issued his decree in 1717, the Catholic Inquisition was still well and alive in Europe. Did the Pope have a hidden agenda to convert Kangxi, since he was friendly with the Jesuits and even wrote two Christian poems, into Christianity to start an Inquisition in China to forcefully convert all the Chinese people? We will never know the truth because there was no Wikileaks then. Luckily, the decree back-fired and Kangxi not only banned the Roman Catholics but all Christian practices in China.

Anyway, it was bad manner for the Pope to impose such a decree to a foreign nation and labelling the Chinese rites as pagan beliefs. Everyone knows what the Catholics did to pagans throughout the world during the Inquisition era. If Kangxi was converted to Christianity, hell would break loose to the Chinese people by the Roman Catholic inquisitors. The Inquisition in Europe officially ended in 1834 but still continued to the last notable action of the Roman Inquisition which occurred in 1858, in Bologna, when Inquisition agents legally removed a 6-year-old Jewish boy, Edgardo Mortara, from his family. He was then baptised and was raised by Pope Pius IX as a Catholic in Rome against his parent’s will.

After losing the Opium War, a series of treaties was forced upon the Qing Dynasty to give away land and ports to the European powers; Hong Kong to Britain in 1842, Macau to Portugal in 1849 and Outer Manchuria to Russia in 1858-1860.

In 1912, Qing Dynasty ended and China became the Republic of China under the Kuomingtang. Civil war began when KMT launched a military campaign against CCP (Communists) in 1927. The Japanese army invaded Manchuria and seized the province in 1931. The Nationalists did not contest this action militarily, then the Japanese invaded China proper from Manchurian bases in 1937.

In 1st September 1939, Second World War officially began.

In 8th Dec. 1939, Pope Pius XII rescinded or back-down Pope Clement XI’s decree (1717) to allow the Chinese Christians to participate in Confucian ceremonies and the Chinese ancestor worship 敬祖 when China was in the midst of a civil war, the Japanese invasion and WWII. Does annulment make Chinese rites and ancestor worship less pagan beliefs? Does it also provide comfort to Kangxi in his grave? Or, like Galileo’s heresy conviction, did the Roman Catholic Church have them wrong in the first place? The main change of heart by the RC church was to gain converts in China in the trouble times.

Ironically, some Christian denominations today regard Roman Catholicism as Pagan-Christianity.

#158 porkymon

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 01:38 PM

Hi, I'm not Chinese but mind blown from this video.






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