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Sanguo Zhi (SGZ) and Sanguo Yanyi (ROTK)


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#1 Sun Wukong

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 03:59 PM

This is a question that has always been bothering me for quite sometime. Can we really prove that COTK is a fact? it was written by Chen Shou and other ministers that served Jin. Couldn't there have been things that are true that might have been hidden from us?

For instance like Liu Bei's benovelence, could it have been a fact that he was a virtuous ruler who loved the people and was very charmistic, unlike the things that were described about him in COTK. Might there have been things that the Jin dynasty was hiding the true story to the three kingdoms?

Or might there have been things that Jin would hid about Zhuge Liang's cunning or Guan Yu's achievements and other things described in ROTK that might have been true. Who knows, maybe Luo Guanzhong might have just written some things true in the 3K period.


Thanks.
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#2 Yun

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 08:04 PM

For a more balanced picture of the Three Kingdoms period, we should thank Pei Songzhi of the Liu-Song dynasty for making an annotation of the Sanguo Zhi that included quotations from other sources that are no longer extant. These annotations do contradict the Sanguo Zhi in some instances, but not to the extent of showing that Chen Shou had really distorted anything.

Luo Guanzhong's novel was based on many folk tales and operas that had been extant from as early as the Tang and Song dynasties. Some of these were not included in the novel - for example, a story about Guan Yu wanting to execute Guan Ping for some misdeed, and stories about Guan Yu's lost son Guan Suo. But we know that the folk mythologisation of Guan Yu had begun in the Southern Dynasties, and the folk mythologisation of Zhuge Liang began in the late Southern Dynasties, Sui and Tang. This is probably not so much a reflection of the real character of Guan and Zhuge, but rather a result of regional cultures trying to create their own heroes.
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#3 Sun Wukong

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 06:40 PM

Thanks for the info.

If you don't mine Yun, perhaps you could tell me some of the history of the 3 kingdoms by Pei Songzhi. Just the important things. Thanks.
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#4 Axel Her

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 11:47 PM

I heard from someone, when I was on tour in China, that ROTK is friction .

It was based on some historical material and written (not necessarily accurately)into a throughly enjoyable reading.

The actual history recorded had aspect like Cao Cao was actually the good guy. However the chinese mindset or the ruler when the book was written,frown upon anyone who would overthrow the existing dynasty and establish a new one.

And was told Zhugeliang was an excellent Prime Minister and not as a military sage.

Can someone here enlighten me whether ROTK was indeed a friction book based on some historical characters ?

:)

#5 Sephodwyrm

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 02:33 AM

Master YUN would give you the best answers.

The best source for the history of that era would be Chen Shou's San Guo Zhi which was written in the North South dynasties era, which is itself several centuries after the Three Kingdoms.

Still, it is more accurate than Luo Guanzhong's ROTK, which was written a millenium afterwards.
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#6 Yun

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 06:49 AM

Axel, this thread should give you some insight:
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=4217

The Sanguo Zhi was written in the 280s, only soon after the Three Kingdoms period ended. Chen Shou, the author, actually lived under the Shu-Han regime in its last years. The annotation by Pei Songzhi, which incorporated sources other than the Sanguo Zhi (sources which are now lost in their original form), was done in the Southern Dynasties, in the 5th century.

The novel RTK is a work of historical fiction (note: it is not 'friction' - friction is something from physics) or historical romance, like Robin Hood or King Arthur. The backbone is a historical period, but the flesh is fictional. Luo Guanzhong did try and work in details from the Sanguo Zhi, distorting or modifying them to fit his themes and characterisation. For example, he changed the story of Hua Xiong to have him being slain in a duel by the invincible Guan Yu, when Hua actually was killed in a battle with Sun Jian's army and Guan Yu was never at the scene at all. Luo also used many folk legends and operas that were already very popular, for example an opera about the 'three brothers' Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei fighting Lu Bu - something which never happened in history.
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#7 Axel Her

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 08:04 AM

So ROTK was fiction (thanks for the English lesson as wel)
loosely based on historical events afterall.

And the Zhugeliang did not borrow the East Wind then , hahaha!

However I suspect most folks do not know this .
Wonder why was it not a mass circulated knowledge?

Like Jinyong's novel , everybody knew it was fiction.
So why ROTK had such misinformed notion?

To a point where Guan Yu being treated as a deity ?
Is this the same myth as the Monkey God ?

I need to sit down and think about this for a while.


Thank you Yun.


Master YUN would give you the best answers.

The best source for the history of that era would be Chen Shou's San Guo Zhi which was written in the North South dynasties era, which is itself several centuries after the Three Kingdoms.

Still, it is more accurate than Luo Guanzhong's ROTK, which was written a millenium afterwards.

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#8 Yun

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 08:40 AM

Axel, most people do not realise how fictionalised the RTK is because unlike Jin Yong's novels, almost all the characters are based on real historical people. Furthermore, most people do not know the truths from the myths because the Sanguo Zhi is in Classical Chinese and too difficult for the average Chinese to read. There are some books debunking the myths, but they are all in Chinese and not sold widely. Compare that to the huge popular culture phenomenon that is the Romance of the Three Kingdoms - novels (both in original language and simplified/condensed forms), comics, cartoons, computer games, television series, and soon, a movie.

My next project for my Masters dissertation is a military history of the Three Kingdoms in English, which will hopefully be published eventually and help to educate people about the historical facts.
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#9 stupidumboy

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 11:44 AM

How many Kinds of 'San Guo Ji' are read in China?
And which is the most widely read and famous?

In Korea, 『羅貫中本』is the most popular and famous .
I never heard other kinds in Korea,

I heard the story of "San Guo Ji" is different by the diffrent block books and authors who applied ideas and values based on the different situations in history.

Also some of the historical events that showed in the novel -are never found on the authentic history records...such like '桃園結義' or '赤碧鉛丸契 '

#10 Yun

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 11:59 AM

How many Kinds of 'San Guo Ji' are read in China?
And which is the most widely read and famous?

In Korea, 『羅貫中本』is the most popular and famous .
I never heard other kinds in Korea,

That is the Sanguo Yanyi.

Also some of the historical events that showed in the novel -are never found on the authentic history records...such like '桃園結義' or '赤碧鉛丸契 '


That's because they aren't historical events at all ;)

Could you tell me more about 赤碧鉛丸契? It sounds like it has something to do with the Battle of Chibi (although the 'bi' is written differently in Chinese versions).
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#11 stupidumboy

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 12:26 PM

Could you tell me more about 赤碧鉛丸契? It sounds like it has something to do with the Battle of Chibi (although the 'bi' is written differently in Chinese versions).

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Yes -during the battle of 赤碧(Chibi-Jeokbyuk), 龐統 advised Caocao(曹操) to connect each battleships with big nails and lay out the wooden board between the ships to prevent the seasickness of the soldiers by wavering.



Caocao(曹操) knew it was very unprotective to the fire attackings,but he never thought of the possibility of south-east wind to blow because it was the winter.

#12 青文景武剑

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 09:12 PM

all the major events are based on ture history, for example: battle of huangjing, guandu, chibi and so on. but character developemtn is more of a fiction.

Edited by 青文景武剑, 16 June 2005 - 09:13 PM.

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#13 Gweilo

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 09:37 PM

You may find this pdf file interesting, as it contains an essay on some distortions in ROTK.

Edited by Gweilo, 16 June 2005 - 09:48 PM.

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#14 Yun

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 10:40 PM

Thanks Gweilo! The relevant pages (for those who need to read it in a hurry) are pages 24-31, right at the end of the chapter.
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#15 青文景武剑

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 10:00 PM

....so long
锦上添花是哥们,
雪中送炭是朋友,
有福同享有难同当是兄弟,
心有灵犀一点通的是知己,
一生知己不多,
你就是我的知己。




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