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Duke of Sung?


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#1 Ghost_of_Han

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Posted 30 July 2004 - 06:32 PM

I was reading the a old pinyin book again and is said somthing like "We are not Dukes of Sung", and I looked around hoplessly, and all I could find was that he ended up losing when he let his enemy prepare? Does anyone know the Time Period of this, and a detailed account possibly?

#2 General_Zhaoyun

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Posted 30 July 2004 - 08:28 PM

Does he mean Song dynasty?
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#3 Ghost_of_Han

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Posted 30 July 2004 - 08:30 PM

I don't think so, I'll reserch it my self, but thats why I hate old pinyin. I think its old war fare?

#4 Yun

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Posted 30 July 2004 - 09:49 PM

GoH, read Ho Yen-hsi's commentary in Chapter IX number 5 of the Art of War. Here it is for the benefit of the others:

During the Spring and Autumn period the Duke [Xiang] of Song 宋襄公 came to [the river] Hong 泓 to engage the Chu army. The Song army had deployed before the Chu troops had completed crossing the river. The Minister of War said: 'The enemy is many, we are but few. I request permission to attack before he has completed his crossing.' The Duke of Song replied: 'You cannot [because it would be dishonourable].'

When the Chu army had completed the river crossing but had not yet drawn up its formations, the Minister again asked permission to attack and the Duke replied: 'Not yet. When they have drawn up their army we will attack.'

The Song army was defeated, the Duke wounded in the thigh, and the officers of the Van [i.e. front guard] annihilated.

Samuel B. Griffith's footnote: The source of Mao Zedong's remark: 'We are not like the Duke of Song.' (i.e. 'We don't play nice when we fight.')

This is one of the funniest incidents in Chinese warfare, and is always brought up by Chinese to illustrate the point that all means fair and foul are justified in war.
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#5 RollingWave

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Posted 31 July 2004 - 01:01 AM

This is the idiom known as Song Xiang Zhi Ren 宋襄之仁 (the generosity of Duke Xiang of Song) it is generally used as a mockery of being kind when you're not supposed to be.
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#6 Sephodwyrm

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 06:21 PM

Well, the duke of Song was very generous to his men and his personal bodyguards actually fought to the last man. This poor sod died in the end from the wounds received from that battle. But during this period he also received the exile duke son Chong Er and gave him much assistance.
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#7 thirdgumi

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 09:21 AM

Just a note. The state of Song was the remaining of Shang dynasty, and duke Xiang of Song wanted to be the next state to get hegemonia after the state of Qi. Since the state of Song was the previous Shang, so, the other states may not be very happy to see Song get hegemonia. So, my guess is, duke Xiang of Song probably wanted to win the war in a convincing way - being honorable in any circunstances. Of course, he gambled and he lost.
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#8 Wei Chong

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 09:25 AM

hi,
I think I want to shair with you all the storry of Duke Xiang of Song
when Duke Huan of Qi, the first hejomon, was still alive, he- sent the Crown Prince, Zhao, to Duke Xiang of Song.
after his death, his ministers, however, put Wu Kui on the throne. Duke Xiang of Song then sent his armies to attack Qi. they killed Jiang Wu Kui, and inthrone Jiang Zhao, and was known as Duke Xiao of Qi. Duke Xiang of Song thought to himself, 'I will become the new hejomon.So he organized a meeting. At that time, Song is still weak.. So he invited the States of Cai, Cao, Teng, and Zeng.
Cai and Cao came pungtually. But the Duke of Teng came late. Duke Xiang of Song arrested him. the Duke of Zeng ddid not want to come. The Song armies threaten him, so he had no choice but to rush to the meeting. so he was late!
Duke Xiang of Song then killed him. the States of Cai and Cao were unhappy what Duke Xiang did. after theDukes had left, his ministers told him to join the State of Chu, whoes Rulers had declaired themselves as King. They said to him, "we can make use of the power of Chu to became hejomon." Duke Xiang agreed. So he organized a meeting with Qi and Chu. After that, he invited all the States to form an Alliance. but I will continue the storry tomorrow

#9 Wei Chong

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 05:20 AM

But the States of Qi and Lu did not come to the meeting. Duke Xiang of Song, however start it without the States of Qi and Lu. Later the King of Chu captured Duke Xiang of Song. and forse him to from an Alliance with Chu. Duke Xiang of Song was released after he had agreed. Duke Xiang was angered because he was made fun by the King of Chu. So he led his armies to attack the State of Zheng, who was Chu's neighbouring State. Duke Wen of Zheng called Chu for help. King Cheng of Chu then sent out his armies to help the State of Zheng. However, the armies of Song rich first. When the armies of Chu started to cross the River, Duke Xiang's advisers told him, "My Lord, attack!" but he replied, "its not the right time now"..
When the Chu armies had finish crossing the river, his advisers shouted, "My Lord, attack! its the right time now!"
His advisers said this because the armies of Chu were still drying their clothes.
"No, no!" he answered. When the armies of Chu hadfinish drying their clothes, Duke Xiang of Song said to his armies,
"attack! attack!" But the Chu armies were stronger the the Song armies. So Song was defeated, and lost its last chance to become the Hejomon.
Thanks for reading. please correct the Spelling mistake. thanks so much




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