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What happened to the Imperial Jade Seal?


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Poll: When was the real Imperial Jade Seal lost? (18 member(s) have cast votes)

When was the real Imperial Jade Seal lost?

  1. When Qin Shihuang threw it into Lake Dongting (3 votes [16.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.67%

  2. When Dong Zhuo fled Luoyang and burned the imperial palace (2 votes [11.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  3. When Fu Jian hid it at the end of the Former Qin (4 votes [22.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.22%

  4. When Northern Zhou destroyed the Southern Dynasties seal after conquering Northern Qi (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. When Li Congke of the Later Tang took it with him into the flames (2 votes [11.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  6. When the Jurchen took it north after the fall of Kaifeng (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. When the Yuan dynasty fell and the Mongols took it with them as they fled back north (7 votes [38.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.89%

  8. Others (please specify) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#31 Zorigo

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 01:02 PM

I found this article from website.
http://www.mongolia8...nt/view/157/43/

No author name was there. Quality of translation into english is so bad. But anyone who has little knowledge of history can filter right from wrong

Nephrite- is that Jade?

Hasbuu seal of Chinggis Khan
1. Hasbuu seal of Chinggis Khan
Seal of state inheritance of China is called ‘Chuan Guo Yu Xi’ in Chinese. It means ‘Nephrite seal of state inheritance’ and ‘Treasure of state inheritance’. This seal was owned by King Qin Shi Huang (the first king of Qin country) who first made a decree to build Great Chinese Wall. 8 Chinese characters “Shou Ming Yu Tian Ji Shu’ Yong Chang” were carved on this seal. Mongolian historian Darma guush of 17th century translated such 8 characters “Endless relay-station to lead to heaven” into Mongolian.

2. State concept/meaning of the seal

In history of China, the seal had been inherited from kings of Empire of China to its new kings. According to Chinese history and sutras, this seal vanished/ was lost during the empire of Su’ng dynasty, but, its reality is not clear. I suggest that it may be attributable to Yuan dynasty which had occupied Su’ng dynasty. i.e., Chinese historians may express their opinions not to accept Mongolian Kings to be Kings of China, but it is a just hypothesis.

3. Nephrite seal was owned by king of Yuan dynasty.

According to history of Yuan dynasty, Nephrite seal was found in house of Mukhulai 8 days later after King Khublai’s death in 1294. Since that time, Kings of Yuan dynasty had owned such seal from generation to generation. Chinese scientists disclaim that the seal was real; however, the seal was necessary for Kings of Mongolia to occupy China /to be King of China.

4. Khas tamga /Nephrite seal/ was owned by king of Northern Yuan dynasty.

History of northern Yuan dynasty date from 1368, when king Togoontumur escaped from soldiers of uprising ‘Red Scarf” to Bars city, to 1634, when king Ligden died (Buir is located in the neighborhood of Khishigten Khushuu, present Inner Mongolia. Mongolian scientist Perenlei considered it in the neighborhood of Kherlen). Such a point of view existed among Mongolian, Inner Mongolian, and European scientists; however, Chinese scientists still keep their position on Mongolia and Mongolian history of Ming dynasty, because Yuan dynasty ruined in 1368. Since then, Mongolia had been under the governance of Ming dynasty. Let’s back to main topic! Togoontumur king took Khas tamga to Bars city. There has been no news after the hold of the seal by Ligden Khaan.

5. Why was Khas seal named as Khasbuu seal of Chinggis Khan?

17th century historical sources have first recorded about the Khasbuu seal of Chinggis Khaan. 17*-18th century historical sources have an interesting story about Chinggis Khan’s possession of Khasbuu tamga. To tell briefly: After Chinggis’s birth, a bird came and sang “Chinggis, Chinggis” The seal was born out of the tree the bird sat. Togoontumur Khan’s poem of repentance mentioned about the seal to be a Khasbuu seal of Great Khan. It means Mongolians clearly named “Chinese Throne Khas Seal” to be Khasbuu Seal of Chinggis Khan. Mr. Ishbaljir, a great scientist of Higher Mongolia of 18th century has clearly explained about the seal: it was not accidentally named Khasbuu seal of Chinggis Khan. We may understand it from word Khasbuu, which derived from two words Khas /Khash/ and Buu. Khas is a direct translation of Chinese word “Yu”. Buu is derived from Chinese word “Bao” that means Jewelry. “Yu Bao” means a simplified expression meaning seal of Kings. However, the Kings of empires and countries like China held a seal “Yu”; however, the kings of countries like Korea that were under the supervision and jurisdiction of other countries held a seal “Bao”, which had been given by Chinese Kings.

6. Khasbuu seal of Chinggis Khan and relationship between Ming and Northern Yuan

Ming country collected army in Northern Yuan in order to obtain the seal. Bars khot and Kharkhorum were destroyed on this reason, too. However, the seal was not obtained by Ming. As Ming could not afford to obtain the seal through military forces, it has distributed a rumor that they had found the seal in the neighborhood of Great Wall of China, and stopped to make effort to seek for the seal; but, it has still been taking various measures to obtain the seal. It is true that they have been expecting to obtain the seal until the reign of Yesun Khaan. We may conclude that Ming was a country without state seal, i.e., it did not fit Chinese state traditions.

7. Khasbuu seal of Chinggis Khan and relationship between Southern and Northern Mongolia

In 1378, Togoontumur khan passed away. The descendant Togostumur Khaan used to avoid of Ming warriors; but, he was killed by Yesundur of Arag Buke origin. At the moment, Khasbuu seal was also transferred from Khublai origin to Arag Buke family. It caused a war between Eastern Mongolia (Duchin Tumen Mongolia) and western Mongolia (Durvun Tumen Oirad). Both of these Mongolians tried to defeat each other through misuse of Ming force. If the seal is in the western Mongolia, eastern Mongolia sends a messenger to Ming to offer to defeat western Mongolia jointly and to transfer the seal after the victory. But, western Mongolia sends a messenger to Ming and says “Do defeat eastern Mongolia first, because they are going to rob the seal on the way to you”. They have cheated in such ways. Among the struggles and wars between eastern and western Mongolia, the major part was the struggle for the seal. Eastern Mongolia did not consider Arag Buke descendants to be descendants of Chinggis, they were considered Oirats.

8. The Khasbuu seal and Boghd king of Manchu dynasty.

After the death of Ligden, the Saint, his son Ejee Hongor resigned to North Altan dynasty in 1635. He gave the Khasbuu seal to Nurhaach’s son, Huang Tai Zi. South Mongolian noblemen capitulated to Huang Tai Zi and awarded him as “Boghd King”.

The North Altan dynasty had changed its name as Ching. However, the seal, given to Huang Tai zi, was not real Khasbuu seal. That’s why, there were only four Chinese scripts on the seal “Zhi Gao Zhi Bao”. So Mongolians (i guess it is Manjus) were cheated by false seal to resign (?) to Ching dynasty. The story lasted until 1911s, but nothing is forgotten among Mongolians.......................................


I think AUTHOR is inner Mongolian

Edited by Zorigo, 27 December 2006 - 01:22 PM.


#32 Yun

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 01:26 PM

That seems to be an attempt to 'prove' the story that I mentioned in an earlier post:

I just read that the imperial jade seal was passed down among the Mongols after the fall of the Yuan, and was seized by Huangtaiji after the Manchus defeated the Chahar Mongols in 1634. Can anyone verify this?


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#33 Zorigo

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 01:35 PM

Additional notes

Jade Seal was obtained by Mongols of Yuan Empire. They kept it in order to govern China.

Kublai caused great division among Mongols by establishing Yuan Dyansty. True Nomad Mongols rallied around Arigbuha, then Haidu. Nomads were lost several battles.

Is that real Jade seal stamp? looks like chinese charachters
Posted Image

Can someone post image of stamp of Imperial Jade seal from ancient chinese sourse? Without solid fact images, argument is just a another story

Edited by Zorigo, 27 December 2006 - 01:52 PM.


#34 Novus

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 12:37 AM

The Imperial Seal of China

The Heirloom Seal of the Realm (Traditional Chinese: 傳國璽; Simplified Chinese: 传国玺), is a jade seal carved out of the He Shi Bi, a historically famous piece of jade.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Creation

In 221 BC, the Seal was created when Qin Shihuang destroyed the remaining Warring States and united China under the Qin Dynasty. The He Shi Bi was a famous piece of jade stone which previously belonged to the Zhao state. Passing into the hands of the new Emperor of China, he ordered it made into his Imperial seal. The words “受命于天,既寿永昌” (roughly translated as "The Mandate is received from Heaven, May He have Longevity and Prosperity") were written by Prime Minister Li Si, and carved onto the seal by Sun Shou.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Propagation

At the death of the second Emperor of Qin, his successor Zi Yin profferred the seal to the new emperor of the Han Dynasty,whereafter it was known as the "Han Heirloom Seal of the Realm". At the end of the Western Han Dynasty in 9 AD, Wang Mang, the new ruler, forced the Han emperess dowager to hand over the Seal. The emperess dowager, in anger, threw the Seal on the ground, chipping one corner. Later Wang Mang ordered the corner to be restored with gold.
This seal passed on even as dynasties rose and fell. It was seen as a legitimising device, signalling the Mandate of Heaven. During turbulent periods, such as the Three Kingdoms period, the seal became the object of rivalry and armed conflict. Regimes which possessed the seal declared themselves, and are often regarded historically, as legitimate. At the end of the restored Han Dynasty in the 3rd Century AD, Sun Jian found the Imperial Seal on the body of a court servant who had committed suicide by diving into a well. His son Sun Ce gave the Seal to Yuan Shu in return for 3000 soldiers, which he used to found the Kingdom of Wu. When Yuan Shu was defeated, the Seal came into the hands of Cao Cao, whose son Cao Pi proclaimed the Wei Dynasty as the legitimate successor state to Han and the other rival dynasties Shu-Han and Wu to be illegitimate.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Loss

The Seal was passed through the Wei Dynasty, Jin Dynasty, Sixteen Kingdoms period, Sui Dynasty and Tang Dynasty, but was lost to history in the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period.

Three theories exist as to how it was lost:

1. At the end of the Tang Dynasty, when the last Emperor died by self-immolation.

2. In 946 CE when the Emperor Taizu of Liao captured the last Emperor of the Jin state.

3. The Seal came into the hands of the Yuan emperors. When the Ming armies captured the Yuan capital in 1369, it captured just one out of the eleven personal Seals of the Yuan emperors. The Heirloom Seal was not found. In 1370, Ming armies invaded Mongolia and captured some treasures brought there by the retreating Yuan emperor. However, the Heirloom Seal was again not among these.

In any case, the Seal was known to be lost by the beginning of the Ming Dynasty. Both the Ming and the Qing dynasties did not have the Heirloom Seal. This partly explains the Qing Emperors' obsession with creating numerous imperial seals, in order to reduce the significance of the Heirloom Seal.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recent Developments

In recent years, several seals have been claimed to be the lost Heirloom Seal. However, none of these claims have been confirmed by experts. In at least one case, the seal concerned was found to be a personal seal of an Emperor, rather than the Heirloom Imperial Seal.

#35 宝泉提举司

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 01:13 PM

Dear Friends,
I need to know, if possible, about the followed imperial seals.
In Wang Guo Wei`s epilogue to the “Meng Da Bei Lu” I have read that in the 14-th year of Jia Ding (1221AD), Mongols presented 2 emperor seals ( Huang Di Gong Yin Tian Ming Zhi Bao) to the Song court.

Russian Orientalist Munkuev based on other contemporary sources had commented this fact as follows: during the Jing Kang period (1126AD), jurchens captured 14 emperor seals. The seals presented by the Mongols was 2 seals from those 14, captured by jurchens. One of them was made in the 3-rd year of Yuan Fu (1100AD), while another one was made in the 1-st year of Jing Kang (1126AD).

As I recollect, in the first half of the XIII century there was about 18 emperor seals known to exist. I need to know as much as possible about these seals, including their names and inscriptions. I will be very thankful to anyone who will shed a bit of light on these questions.
水落石出

#36 Li Wei Feng

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 02:13 PM

I've heard a version that mentioned the seal was lost when the last emperor of Southern Song was chased by the Mongols to the south and a loyal aide of the Emperor brought with him the Seal and the kid emperor and they both jumped to the sea thus losing the Seal. It was also mentioned that the Seal would be somewhere in the bottom of the South China Sea now. Not sure about the accuracy of this version.

#37 Yun

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 01:02 PM

I've heard a version that mentioned the seal was lost when the last emperor of Southern Song was chased by the Mongols to the south and a loyal aide of the Emperor brought with him the Seal and the kid emperor and they both jumped to the sea thus losing the Seal. It was also mentioned that the Seal would be somewhere in the bottom of the South China Sea now. Not sure about the accuracy of this version.


There was probably an imperial seal somewhere on the ship, and it would then have ended up in the Bay of Guangzhou - although silting in the Pearl River Delta has now shrunk the Bay so much that any such seal would be buried underground in the vicinity of the city of Xinhui, and not in the South China Sea. But there is no possibility that it was even the imperial seal of Southern Song, since that seal was handed over to Khubilai Khan when the Song imperial court surrendered to him at Hangzhou in 1276. Nor was the imperial seal of Southern Song the same seal as that of Northern Song, since the Jurchen got that one in 1127. The imperial seal of Northern Song was not the imperial seal of Tang, since Li Congke supposedly burned that one when he killed himself. Lastly, the imperial seal of Tang may not even be the original imperial seal of Han, if it was already lost or destroyed sometime between Han and Tang.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#38 Slow Rambler

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:26 AM

Hello

The link provided is broken.

Could someone check the link,provide an up to date link or point me to a site that looks in detail at the many theories?

I am researching the Heirloom Seal of the Realm and that is not an easy task :rolleyes:

Thank you

Keith

(Here follows the original forum posting)


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I found this article from website.
http://www.mongolia8...nt/view/157/43/
Keith

#39 Guest_Liu Bang_*

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 07:38 PM

The Imperial Seal of China

The Heirloom Seal of the Realm (Traditional Chinese: 傳國璽; Simplified Chinese: 传国玺), is a jade seal carved out of the He Shi Bi, a historically famous piece of jade.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Creation

In 221 BC, the Seal was created when Qin Shihuang destroyed the remaining Warring States and united China under the Qin Dynasty. The He Shi Bi was a famous piece of jade stone which previously belonged to the Zhao state. Passing into the hands of the new Emperor of China, he ordered it made into his Imperial seal. The words “受命于天,既寿永昌” (roughly translated as "The Mandate is received from Heaven, May He have Longevity and Prosperity") were written by Prime Minister Li Si, and carved onto the seal by Sun Shou.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Propagation

At the death of the second Emperor of Qin, his successor Zi Yin profferred the seal to the new emperor of the Han Dynasty,whereafter it was known as the "Han Heirloom Seal of the Realm". At the end of the Western Han Dynasty in 9 AD, Wang Mang, the new ruler, forced the Han emperess dowager to hand over the Seal. The emperess dowager, in anger, threw the Seal on the ground, chipping one corner. Later Wang Mang ordered the corner to be restored with gold.
This seal passed on even as dynasties rose and fell. It was seen as a legitimising device, signalling the Mandate of Heaven. During turbulent periods, such as the Three Kingdoms period, the seal became the object of rivalry and armed conflict. Regimes which possessed the seal declared themselves, and are often regarded historically, as legitimate. At the end of the restored Han Dynasty in the 3rd Century AD, Sun Jian found the Imperial Seal on the body of a court servant who had committed suicide by diving into a well. His son Sun Ce gave the Seal to Yuan Shu in return for 3000 soldiers, which he used to found the Kingdom of Wu. When Yuan Shu was defeated, the Seal came into the hands of Cao Cao, whose son Cao Pi proclaimed the Wei Dynasty as the legitimate successor state to Han and the other rival dynasties Shu-Han and Wu to be illegitimate.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Loss

The Seal was passed through the Wei Dynasty, Jin Dynasty, Sixteen Kingdoms period, Sui Dynasty and Tang Dynasty, but was lost to history in the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period.

Three theories exist as to how it was lost:

1. At the end of the Tang Dynasty, when the last Emperor died by self-immolation.

2. In 946 CE when the Emperor Taizu of Liao captured the last Emperor of the Jin state.

3. The Seal came into the hands of the Yuan emperors. When the Ming armies captured the Yuan capital in 1369, it captured just one out of the eleven personal Seals of the Yuan emperors. The Heirloom Seal was not found. In 1370, Ming armies invaded Mongolia and captured some treasures brought there by the retreating Yuan emperor. However, the Heirloom Seal was again not among these.

In any case, the Seal was known to be lost by the beginning of the Ming Dynasty. Both the Ming and the Qing dynasties did not have the Heirloom Seal. This partly explains the Qing Emperors' obsession with creating numerous imperial seals, in order to reduce the significance of the Heirloom Seal.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recent Developments

In recent years, several seals have been claimed to be the lost Heirloom Seal. However, none of these claims have been confirmed by experts. In at least one case, the seal concerned was found to be a personal seal of an Emperor, rather than the Heirloom Imperial Seal.


Dear Novus,

Kindly remember to quote the source next time. I'll do it for you this time...... :clapping:
http://www.ibiblio.o...rts-c01s04.html

I can't seem to find any pictures of the Heirloom Seal, as probably it was destroyed long ago and no pictures were taken.

#40 sima old bandit

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 07:34 AM

Yao Chang wanted to become an emperor himself, and for that he felt he needed an imperial seal. So when he founded the Later Qin state, he forged his own "imperial jade seal". This action was imitated by other emperor-wannabes, such that Murong Chui of the Later Yan [the new state founded by the Murong Xianbei after rebelling against the Former Qin] also forged a seal for himself. The Eastern Jin had always maintained that it was the legitimate ruling dynasty of China, and so when it saw this, it quickly forged an imperial seal as well. However, the Eastern Jin made a mistake in the inscription for the seal [probably because they had not seen the seal for such a long time, as also suggested by Yu Xi's confusion over the actual inscription as mentioned at the end of the previous post] - it was mangled into Shoutian Zhiming, Huangdi Shouchang 受天之命,皇帝寿昌 (Receiving the Mandate of Heaven, the Emperor long-lived and prosperous). They also made up a story that this seal had been handed over to them by Ran Min's general Jiang Gan [and supposedly also wrote this into their history books!].


Should the original inscription of the imperial seal not be quite well known? Surely there would be records of its inscription or imperial decrees from previous dynasties still in existance?

Also is there any threads which talks of the origins of the jade (He She Bi) in the spring/autumn and warring states period? I've seen it mentioned in drama series and wondered how accurate those were.




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