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Ancient Chinese "Dawanku", vs Tiwanaku of Peru


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#1 Ed Ziomek

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 01:05 PM

As mentioned by General Zhaoyun, I am "cabdriver" Ed Ziomek, Stamford, Connecticut, usa.

General mentioned an ancient Chinese Dynasty called... Dawanku.

I suspect this might be related to the Tiwanaku of Peru.

http://www.jqjacobs....s/tiwanaku.html

Does anyone know about the Dawanku, and where can I research their culture?

The Chinese symbol shown for this culture, is like a 'stick figure man', which I also found on a temple of the Valley of Mexico... Teotuhuacan.

something like....

-|-
/ \
http://www.world-mys.../gw_edziom3.htm

(scroll down 19 pages)

By the way, my research on ancient Aztecs and maya and Tiwanaku and incas, now is focusing on the Asian influences, proven by DNA studies. (Rudeboy?)

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=5031

Excellent website.

Ed Ziomek

#2 Kenneth

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 05:42 PM

Dawanku (sic)is a neolithic culture if I am not mistaken. It isnt a dynasty.
By this time the land bridge accross the Bering Straight is gone.
DNA links do not prove cultural links. It is well know the ancient Americans come from Asiatic stock.
There is no evidence for links between, say, Shang & Mayan culture however. Despite the fun of playing with such ideas it involves fixating on surface similarities such as a few motifs and ignoring the real differences such as material culture, script, burial styles, religion, ritual, pattern of warfare and technology.
The populations of South America entered Alaska tens of thousands of years ago and then migrated south. There is thought to be more than one movement of peoples seperated by thousands of years but they end after the ice age & raising sea levels removes the land bridge.
At this time the only people who braved open seas to find land beyond sight were the ancestors of the Australian aborigines (surpisingly). Where they landed is now under water after 40-50,000 years. Races like the polynesians start open ocean voyaging from the East coast in the last several thousand years.
Connections between Eypgt and America due to tabbaco on Ramases mummy fails to mention that tobbaco was used in the 19th century as insecticide on the mummies and so the residue tested didnt established matabolised chemicals that would demonstrate tabbaco during his lifetime. Cocaine was also legal and used in this way up untill the 20th century (such chemicals are present in plants as natural pesticides but have different effects on humans). Most reversed histories like 1950's Thor Heydahl use a now flawed logic that ignores linguistic or archaeolgical evidence. The less people know the better the ideas sound.
A good study would be on the pottery of the Dawanku (sic) culture...which is one way Chinese archaeolgists distinguish connections and evolution of different neolithic Chinese groups.
The more you learn the less basis such connections have.
Such psuedo-histories still sell books though.
Read for entertainment only.
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#3 Kenneth

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Posted 29 September 2005 - 12:03 AM

A good study would be on the pottery of the Dawanku (sic) culture...which is one way Chinese archaeolgists distinguish connections and evolution of different neolithic Chinese groups.
The more you learn the less basis such connections have.

That is to say, the less basis the counter-histories have. Funny how they keep coming up in every part of the globe.
There is information on the dating and the geographical area (east China predating the Long Shan neolithic) of the DAWENKOU culture via a google search.
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#4 Ed Ziomek

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Posted 29 September 2005 - 12:54 PM

That is to say, the less basis the counter-histories have. Funny how they keep coming up in every part of the globe.
There is information on the dating and the geographical area (east China predating the Long Shan neolithic) of the DAWENKOU culture via a google search.


Kenneth... I think you are dismissing the possibility of the Valley of Mexico being a "Grand Central Station" of the ancient world.

There are something like 175 defined indigenous dialects in Mexico alone, with, I am told, 43 separate and distinct tribes in the Valley of Mexico, featuring every European, Asian, African racial features, which we ignorantly describe as singularly "Aztec". The Aztecs, or Moosheekas, were only a minority tribe when they came into a position of prominence.

Pottery from Mexico or Arizona has been identified (somewhere in my studies) with explicit island cultures in the Japanese Island chain.

The flat-step pyramids of Mexico match more closely the pyramids of China than they do of Egypt, I am told, yet the animal images of Mexico match in many respects, both Chinese and Egyptian animal-God images.

My next focus is the Asian (Chinese/Japanese) naming conventions, which compare almost identical to Aztec and Egyptian naming conventions...

The most resistance to my readings, and theories, comes from historians who absolutely dismiss ANY chance of a connection.... 100% IMPOSSIBLE, they tell me.

Younger people tell me... Maybe impossible, but why not possible?

Can I send you a map of Aztec Mexico, for comparison of ancient Chinese names and iconic symbolism?

Names like... Aztec "Na-wa", compares to Chinese "Nu-wa", compares to Western "No-ah".

#5 Kulong

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Posted 29 September 2005 - 01:41 PM

Kenneth... I think you are dismissing the possibility of the Valley of Mexico being a "Grand Central Station" of the ancient world.

For one thing, we are talking about the "ancient world" when travelling far distances is next to impossible, not to mention impratical.

The flat-step pyramids of Mexico match more closely the pyramids of China than they do of Egypt, I am told, yet the animal images of Mexico match in many respects, both Chinese and Egyptian animal-God images.

As far as I know, there is really no such thing as "Chinese pyramids". The only thing close to being a pyramid is the tomb of Qin Shi Huang, which is no more than a huge mound.

Also, I am not aware that Chinese worshipped animals as gods as the Egyptians did.

My next focus is the Asian (Chinese/Japanese) naming conventions, which compare almost identical to Aztec and Egyptian naming conventions...

Is that so? And what are some of the specific similarities?

Unlike Koreans or Vietnamese, Japanese naming system isn't identical to Chinese naming system, although it was deeply influenced. As far as I know, modern Japanese names didn't even come about until relatively recent in history. If you'll notice, Japanese surnames tend to have something to do with the environment which their ancestors lived in, many having to do with fields, rivers, trees... etc. This is because when the Japanese finally adopted a system of consesus, families were given surnames according to where they lived. Also, unlike Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese, Japanese names tend to be at least four characters or more while CKV names tend to be 2 or 3 characters and rarely 4.

Point is, Chinese and Japanese names aren't even alike so it's misleading to group them together.

The most resistance to my readings, and theories, comes from historians who absolutely dismiss ANY chance of a connection.... 100% IMPOSSIBLE, they tell me.

Younger people tell me... Maybe impossible, but why not possible?

Nothing is impossible, but until proven its existance, something is only propbable at best and doesn't necessarily mean it does exist.

Can I send you a map of Aztec Mexico, for comparison of ancient Chinese names and iconic symbolism?

Yes please provide any evidence you may have.

Names like... Aztec "Na-wa", compares to Chinese "Nu-wa", compares to Western "No-ah".

There are COUNTLESS such coincidences in languages across the world. Also, how do you know that the Chinese goddess Nuwa's name was pronounced as "Nuwa" thousands of years ago? The same goes for Noah and Nawa.
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#6 Ed Ziomek

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Posted 29 September 2005 - 06:12 PM

Kulong and Kenneth...

Thank you very much for your response, and you ask extremely, sincere, valid questions...

I certainly don't have all the answers.

Let me take one word for starters, to display what I am trying to show... Language connectivity...

China Tai-yue da-di

http://www.pantheon....-yue_da-di.html

China "Tai Yi" or Tai-yue "Supreme one"

http://www.pantheon....-yue_da-di.html

maybe even "Tai Chi" in my translation, it is "Spirit of the God", or "God Spirit", ....

Aztec-era "Te-ho-tee" on temple of "Teotu-huacan", Mexico "Where men become Gods"

......... http://www.world-mys.../gw_edziom3.htm (scroll to bottom)

Egyptian/Judaic Dje-heu-ty (Thoth, god of knowledge, judges the dead)

or...China Sacred Mountain "Tai Shan"

Japanese Tai-sha Sacred Priest

Aztec Mexico Texcaca Tay Cha -Ka Ka Sacred Priest, Osiris (sacred Lake)...Yahoo lookup "Ka (her) ka"

Inca Titicaca Peruvian-Inca Sacred Priest Osiris (sacred Lake)

Amerindian Te-che-ko-ku (now Chicago) Sacred Priest Osiris (ancient name for River/ Lake)

Shikoku Japan Spirit of Osiris (probably is missing prefix) island in the ocean

Amerindian "Texas"

This is just one word.

Another word:

Mashkhan Babylonian/Judaic Holy Temple

Mashu Hindu Lover

Ma-shu Japan Devil Mountain

Michoacan Aztec Mexico Tabernacle/Womb/Holy Temple

Amerindian-Anglicized Michigan

The legend is... we were all one language at one time, and I believe it. If not one language, there are elements in all the languages that are identical.

But no, be skeptical! Do not believe for a minute, this is all theory. Someone told me... "Ed, you have to be dead for 20 years before anyone will believe you, or any part of what you are saying".

#7 Kenneth

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 12:29 AM

I agree with each of Kulong's points.

Ed, just consider your theory really isnt required to explain how these groups evoleved. There isnt any enigma there that would make it nessecary to doubt the credible work to date how groups evolved and when.
It isnt nessecary. What about 'the simplest explanation is often the correct explanation'. Far from being simple the evolution of language and dialects, as well as material culture, DNA and what is practical all shows a perfectly sounds working theory that doesnt require "the Valley of Mexico being a "Grand Central Station" of the ancient world."
There are people doing exactly the same thing as you are, but working in reverse vis-a-vis the Epygtians teaching the Americans to build pyramids...or that the ancient high cultures are all negroid, or that Celts settled NZ, or the Phoenicians reached Australia, even the Ming reaching South America has its hurdles etc. Each of them is passionate, but each has very limited credibilty.
One problem is, apart from you just demonstrating the very attention to surface details without acknowledging the much greater differences, is that you even misunderstand those surface similarities.
''Chinese pyramids'' is a misnomer. Having seen them with my own eyes and climbed several I can assure you there needs to be no connection to another contenient any more than the mound bounders in North America or the barrows in the UK need a connection to exist.
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=5322

Note that apart from the similarities in sounds made by different you have just patched together so many cultures seperated by time and geography to make proving one connection seem a foregone conclusion. Far from it. Each one is unconvincing for a catologe of reasons.
It may be fun to ponder but I am completely serious when I say

The more you learn {about a specific culture} the less basis such {unconventional} connections have.

It becomes nessecary to dismiss the academics and previous scholastic work to maintain such ideas. That is quite unproductive to not understand the conventional wisdom first. These academics, despite psuedo-historians bitterness, do NOT have an agenda against the truth. They are open to expanding knowledge of their respective fields. They just often know a lot about their given subject and therefore have 100 good reasons to contrary.
These world alternative histories fail to explain, for one thing to begin with, the missing export of technology & cultural skills.
Why should central America influence anything once the oceans rise?
Is it nessecary to have contact to explain the fact they have similar words or both have priests & shaman etc?
Lets list off the top of my head. The south Americans did not have the wheel. By 1800BC the Chinese did. Therefore any Chinese could teach them that. Even a peasant could tell an pre-columbian King about a wheelbarrow, so obviously no contact that way.
Lets say the central Americans reach China instead (other theories work the opposite way, ie Shang went to China)The burial customs are entirely different. Chinese had shaft burials and then chambered burials unlike any pre-columbian culture. If a new group arrived where is the evidence in burials?
Why didnt the Central American bring corn or maize with them, or other new world vegetables?. Other colonists like Polynesians bought dogs and chickens & crops all accross the Pacific.
Why didnt they construct any megalithic structures once they reached China and interacted with other cultures? There is no culture of constructing such items of fitted blocks in China, the Americans could of shown them that technique.
Why is there no evidence on the archaeological record of China of a new group in the record of pottery styles...which is quite well defined and tracable from times and regions. A new form arriving would stand out after all the investigation.
Why didnt even new fabrics or textiles styles alter with a new groups arrival?
The central and south americans worked gold in thin hammered sheets and then soldered them into complex art works...the Chinese never made such objects and instead cast fine objects in moulds. Why didnt the central americans leave a trace of their specific culture in any form?
Central American weapons were quite distinct from Chinese. Why were no new weapon styles or warfare patterns found?
What about script? Americans used either knots to record events...and had distinct gods that needed appeasing...where is the evidence they bought a new religion?
Any impact at all? Any physical or cultural impact?

Also, what period are you talking about? The great central American cultures arise rather later than Dawenkou.
You need to draw up a chronogy of who could influence whom...& how.
You have lumped together so many regions and cultures but many would not even be contemporary. The Chinese would have recorded newcomers any time after 3,000 years ago. All the peripheral tribes and groups are named in Chinese history. When did the americans arrive? Before 3,000 years ago what american civilisation would there be to come over? If they landed in China who did they encounter? Long Shan/east coast Neolithic etc.
Who stepped off the boats?
How?
How did they do this when the boats in central America are not outfited to cross oceans. Even Europeans stuck to the coast in ancient times. I dont see reed boats crossing oceans. Thor Heydhal is long since discredited and the colonisation of the pacific absolutely shown to be East to West in linguistic (real linguistics) and material culture back tracking.

I really see no working model to show a contact, how the contact was possible...and actually who contacted whom.
Might be sounding harsh but really you need to address all or even one of these points.
It is far from being an entertaining psuedo-history book just yet.

When you say I am dismissing the possibility of the Valley of Mexico being a "Grand Central Station" of the ancient world.
I am.
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#8 Ed Ziomek

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 10:08 AM

Ken and Kulong... you bring up valid, valid concerns. Keep raising those issues.

But I could not disasgree more, from my amateur-tourist point of view, we are talking about almost identical connections in my opinion, and in a growing, if not overwhelming group of scientific studies.

When looking at let's say, 12,000 years of history, which I say plausibly exists in Central America, and the western hemisphere... And my untrained, un-educated eye picks out

Plausible Atlantean naming conventions in the Valley of mexico Atlatzinco, Atlauntenco, Atlaco, Atlacualco, Atlanco, Atlacuinuayan, Atlazolpa, Atlapulco, Atlipac, Atoyac Note: "At-lan" ... the "At" refers, I believe, to the "Vulva land", the land of creation, according to Wallis Budge's 1921 Book, "An Egyptian Hieroglyphic dictionary".

http://www.world-mys.../gw_edziom2.htm

Plausible Egyptian naming conventions and iconic symbolism in the Valley of Mexico: Co-aten-chan (plausibly Temple of Sun/Moon), Teotu-huacan Tehotu faint image of bird, painted on Western wall of "Temple of the Sun", Texcaca (lookup "Ka (her) Ka" on Yahoo)... plausibly refers to Osiris, in similarity with Titicaca, and Teshekoku (now Chicago, I believe).

Plausible Greek naming conventions in the Valley of Mexico: Temple of Athena: Tenayucan; Hephaestos: Tepetacalco.pu, Epazoyucan, or Tepetzinco; Hill of Hercules, (Phallus of the God-Hill) Tepeyacac; Atlas, Atlaco.

Plausible Judaic naming conventions; Acolman A'S'Allah man, "arm of the first man", probably originally referring to Osiris, plausibly referred in more modern times to Solomon; Yahuatlan, Land of Yahweh?

So, please, dismiss the DNA connectivity shown by Rudeboy, or dismiss the naming conventions, or dismiss the iconic symbolism wich Graham Hancock Fingerprints of the Gods wrote about , or the 100 or so authors I have found who wrote of these connectivity discoveries, dismiss them all.

I am not offerring scientific proof. I am only the "cabdriver" who finds 10,000 clues in every public library I have been in showing the connectivity clues. Yet, yet, yet, the world believes that the Western Hemisphere developed "independently", and in some kind of cultural isolation or vacuum. Go ahead, believe what you want. I see in your post, you have opened the door a minute crack saying these connectivities are "improbable" or something like that... you don't have to give me that much.

I have placed all my tourist clues on the table. I stand in line with 1000 or 10,000 authors before me, who tabled their clues, some believable, some too fantastic to believe, many like myself, unqualified to call them true or not... but I am #10,001 who saying the evidence is very strong we were all connected.

PS... Alex Sokolowski of World-Mysteries.com posed a major, major "discovery" of sorts (although he may not have been the first)... and that the geographic layout of Teotuhuacan in Mexico is not oriented explicitly North-South, and is actually 15 degrees "clockwise" from North-South. and, Teotuhuacan shows remarkable geographic semblance to Giza.

http://www.world-mys...s.com/mpl_7.htm

The chinese speak of the earth shifting eons ago, and is the reason for the world flood. So it hints that Teotuhuacan was built MUCH earlier than 3000 BC. It may have been built BEFORE the flood, before the earth rotated and caused an cataclysm. (yes, another theory)

http://en.wikipedia....ted_to_Noah_.3F


Please, keep up your skepticism ... it is much healthier than being a believer!

Ed Z

#9 Kulong

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 11:05 AM

Ed Ziomek: Not that I am purposely bashing your beliefs but the so-called "evidence" you provided are simply not very convincing. Like I've said in my previous posts, there are COUNTLESS coincidences where some words may sound alike in unrelated language.

The kind of evidence you need to convince people of your theory are something like "HOW" people in the ancient world were able to travel far distances half-way across the world and back in order to have been influenced by each other's cultures and languages.
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#10 Ed Ziomek

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 03:30 PM

They had ocean going vessels. They have found 150 ships buried in the Sahara desert.

Europe to Western Hemisphere, two methods...
Even today, I believe, there is no open ocean more than 135 ?? miles between Ireland and North America. That is the Northern route, with sea levels of today. The Irish myth is that you would climb the mast and see land somewhere in the Western horizon. But this was the difficult way.

The southern way, which became known as the "Trade Winds", you almost don't need a sail. A raft could make the trip. You leave the Canaries and the ocean currents take you into the Caribean island chains.

This was the method used by Brendan the Navigator in 558 BC, for which a book was written, Navigatio, which a copy still resides in the Vaican library. This is the book which Colombus read, in Limerick and Galway in today's Ireland. To get to the west, you sailed south, and surprise, surprise, the same currents and winds take you back to Ireland or Portugal! Hence, the "trade winds", a clockwise direction set of wind and ocean currents. Note: In certain towns of Long Island and Ireland, they celebrate St. Brendan's Day, to this day.

But Colombus had two maps... the Brendan map, and the Martin Behain map. The Brendan map called the North American area... "Chipan". This map was made 900 years before Colombus's voyage.

I am told that Colombus delivered SECRET PAPERS to Isabella and the Pope, that he found CHINESE on Hispaniola, and Chinese artifacts, identical to what Marco Polo had found in 1215 on his direct trip to China. These documents are just now coming to light, 500 years later.

By the way, the reverse human travel experience was also true... asian looking people would wash up on the shores of Ireland in small fishing boats after storms... and the locals knew...there is something ELSE out there.

There is even the funny story, of Sir Walter Raleigh, when he first reached what we call the Roanoke area, that he planted the Flag of England in the sands, and greeted the Indians who approached him.... just one catch, one of the "Indians" started talking to him in broken Welsh, or ancient English, or something he could understand... he was flabergasted! Seems the French and English fisherman had been fishing the grand banks area for centuries, and these "Indians' were like ... "summer help" or something. So goes the legend. And yes, that was the first Roanoke group that disappeared.

Map of the ancients.... Ever hear of the Riis Piri map? That's the ancient, ancient map that shows the Antartica area "under the ice". When shown to the US Air Force who matched it up with their radar studies, as being.... Antartica and lower South America... they were stunned... this cannot be. Where did you get this map, etc.

Only their advanced radar studies of land UNDER the ice was more accurate than this ancient map, since the last time Antartica was ice free was 6500 years ago!!!

Ancient Greek map?... if you had a map, would you tell your warring neighbor? I don't think so.

I think there was a Greek secret map, and yes, this is only more and more theory... but the statue of Atlas, holding the globe on his left shoulder, is an amazing approximation for the Western Hemisphere...

Atlas's head is Yucatan. His right arm is Cuba-Florida. His left arm is Baja. And the Northern Hemisphere sits on his left shoulder. Who needed a map when you could visualize the statue... just leave the Canary Islands, and follow (generally) the setting sun. 5000 years ago, the oceans were probably 300 feet lower, so whole areas under water today were above water then, or so we are told. Vertical land is Florida. Horizontal land is Cuba... which you follow by keep sailing West... (I can only guess, though it is plausible)

Why do we dismiss entire epochs of time, when cultures would move 300 ton megaliths to the tops of mountains, without any tool we know of today, and the mapped the celestial heavens, and knew about sunspot activity, and had brain surgery, and had agricultureal plant splicing and animal breeding, and had herbal medicines, and had incredible architectures, and fantastic gem-cutting and metallurgy, yet we ask....

"What a dumb group of people, they didn't know how to sail the ocean?"

Or maybe as Graham Hancock mentioned in "Fingerprints of the Gods", paraphrased... "it is entirely possible that entire cultures rose up to incredible advances in sciences and medicines and navigation, maybe beyond the status we are today, only to be wiped out in some or many cataclysmic events", and they had to start over from scratch.

Don't believe me, though, continue your skepticism!! Question, question, question!

Z

#11 Kulong

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 04:06 PM

Ed Ziomek: I am a big fantasy/sci-fi fan but at the same time, I am also a man of science. All your theories are very interesting and even intriguing, but without evidence, they are nothing more than stories.

We are not arguing what's possible or what's impossible here. Almost anything is POSSIBLE, but not many things ARE.

Edited by Kulong, 30 September 2005 - 04:07 PM.

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#12 Ed Ziomek

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 07:17 PM

Kulong... and Ken... well said...

I have two corrections, maybe three.

Brendan the Navigator 558 AD, not BC

Piri Riis map, not Riis Piri!

You know what I find improbable...

I find an entire Western hemisphere disappearing from the Eastern world, up to 500 years ago?

How IM-POSSIBLE is that???? Gee whiz... are we missing a hemisphere or something? For 10,000 years?!

Or if you knew of its existence, would you tell your neighbors? Countries in many instances, did not exist. City states oftentimes existed. And you fought the next city over. Athens fought with Sparta and with ??? Corinth and with Sicily and Carthage and with who knows what.

Education and knowledge, known as the "Sia", the Science, was treasured, only to be known by priests, not the common folk.

So you held onto your knowledge. Knowledge WAS power. Maps were power. Slight advantages of knowledge oftentimes created whole epochs of power for that culture. So nobody except the priests communicated the knowledge. Everything was a secret.

If an ancient explorer found a whole land, who could he tell the news to? Colombus told Isabella and the Pope.

Anyways, this is a wonderful discussion, stay skeptical!

Ed Z

#13 Kenneth

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 11:59 PM

Atlantis, eh?
I dont dismiss the DNA evidence at all. I commented on it but you use it to your own illogical purpose. Genetics does not show movement of culture. despite my points above you have only given more ''words that sound the same''.

These ocean going vessels in the sahara....so what? Are they from central America? I hear similar things often...like Zhou bronzes found in Sweden and such. The less you know about the incident the better it sounds. I doubt the discoverers will be building mountains out of molehills. Do you have the report on the site & the vessels construction? No? Why not.
The flood legends in the bible are plagarised from Sumerians but it doesnt follow then that it must mean Atlantis when Plato's story sits in isolation thousands of years later as a morality tale. There are much better theories it records the volcanic tsumami which affected Mycenean society in the Mediteranian. But people still see Atlantis in even inlands deserts of Peru.
No explanation of how it is possible physically is needed when they have mathmatics & angles...just like your connection to Giza.
Try dropping a handful of cherries on a cake. They might just have a statistical connection to the big dipper or the belt of orion.
These same ancient people looked at the same stars & they are NOT dumb, so there may well be a REAL connection but it only means they had good brains and turned their heads upwards. More than one person figured out the earth was round. Ideas can happen divergently.
My God, these is the same lame rhetorical arguments I have had with the author of "Ancient Celtic NZ" who simply misrepresented the real archaeolgical evidence and makes so much of little. It becomes a faith that has NOTHING to do with a real understanding of the culture.

The maps you mention, a lot of this stuff, yeah I have heard it before. The secret truth on web pages and books from the 70's and such. A lot of it is easier to believe if you dont know little about the facts and just clutch at every straw that suits. Nevermind the bulk of evidence to the contrary.
Ed, You need to look at any one point in depth. Misunderstanding and legend is what you have spun togehter.
You jump from point of the globe to the other side, seperate cultures, all tied together in a mish-mash. You havent done a good job with a single one yet.
Heres an easy one. A start. CONFIRM THIS. Find me a period document or history quote. EASY;

There is even the funny story, of Sir Walter Raleigh, when he first reached what we call the Roanoke area, that he planted the Flag of England in the sands, and greeted the Indians who approached him.... just one catch, one of the "Indians" started talking to him in broken Welsh, or ancient English, or something he could understand... he was flabergasted! Seems the French and English fisherman had been fishing the grand banks area for centuries, and these "Indians' were like ... "summer help" or something. So goes the legend. And yes, that was the first Roanoke group that disappeared.


That's all just standard stuff. It is rot. Dig a little deeper. Find the actual account...and not parapahrased from a website.
If this happened then you can show me the Welsh speaking Indian portion in the original account and I will say 'blow me down, you were right!" When I studied 15th century American we had the original script, which was workable if you sound out the words. Find a good account...and not a website or new-age history. A simple verbatim, as it was written, account.
If not then you have just uttered a falsehood as history. Consider that.
There's a dozen things to pick, a dozen errors and half truths or misunderstandings there.

If I could see Plato now I would kick him in the butt for all the trouble he has caused. I really think looking for Atlantis, which didnt even need to exist beyond a tale of morality, beyond the Greek world is silly.
The secret maps? Chinese artefacts that were found? What were they? Do you have any pictures?....No. Where are they ? In the Vatican or whatever. Convenient.
Just like Roswell & the Alien autopsies. Area 51. Its all the same poison.

Continued discussion on the topic is likely to be mutually futile.
Try for the Walter Reliegh bit first at least..that's easy to confirm.

Good luck. ;)
Climb over the Great Firewall.
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#14 Ed Ziomek

Ed Ziomek

    Imperial Inspector (Jianyushi 监御使)

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 01:04 PM

Kulong and Kenneth...

Let me start with published books, and then we can go from there.

Best listed first...

Fingerprints of the Gods, Graham Hancock;

America BC, Barry Fell;

Galactic Alignment, John Major Jenkins;

Orion Mystery, Adrian Gilbert, Robert Bauval;

Great White Conquerors (can't find the author this moment)

Colombus was Last, Patrick Huyghe

3 Portuguese in America, 590 BC-1974: A Chronology and Fact Book: Manoel Cardozo

and my favorite with regards to the Chinese influence in the Americas...

Terracotta Warriors, Maurice Cotterell;

The subject is fascinating to me, as you can tell, but I never felt it my "Job" to convince anyone. I can lay the evidence and the myths and the legends and the fictions (if you call it that) and the pseudo science...
one the table, and you don't have to agree or anything.

Every library in the United States contains bits and pieces of all this information.

As a personal challenge, and a good challenge at that, I think I want to find the Sir Walter Raleigh account of the Welsh speaking indians, and the construction of the ocean going boats found in the Sahara...

3 boats, 150 feet long, with ??12 foot prows. (not 150 boats, my goof)

But still, most people will not believe any author, or any DNA study, or any pottery, or any image or any hieroglyphic... it is a healthy human attribute to be cautious, and to be skeptical, and that is a good thing.

I find it hard to believe too. Till I found it myself.

Ed Z

#15 Craig

Craig

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

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    Chinese History

Posted 01 October 2005 - 04:57 PM

Kulong and Kenneth...

Let me start with published books, and then we can go from there.

Best listed first...

Fingerprints of the Gods, Graham Hancock;

America BC, Barry Fell;

Galactic Alignment, John Major Jenkins;

Orion Mystery, Adrian Gilbert, Robert Bauval;

Great White Conquerors (can't find the author this moment)

Colombus was Last, Patrick Huyghe

3 Portuguese in America, 590 BC-1974: A Chronology and Fact Book: Manoel Cardozo

and my favorite with regards to the Chinese influence in the Americas...

Terracotta Warriors, Maurice Cotterell;

The subject is fascinating to me, as you can tell, but I never felt it my "Job" to convince anyone. I can lay the evidence and the myths and the legends and the fictions (if you call it that) and the pseudo science...
one the table, and you don't have to agree or anything.

Every library in the United States contains bits and pieces of all this information.

As a personal challenge, and a good challenge at that, I think I want to find the Sir Walter Raleigh account of the Welsh speaking indians, and the construction of the ocean going boats found in the Sahara...

3 boats, 150 feet long, with ??12 foot prows. (not 150 boats, my goof)

But still, most people will not believe any author, or any DNA study, or any pottery, or any image or any hieroglyphic... it is a healthy human attribute to be cautious, and to be skeptical, and that is a good thing.

I find it hard to believe too. Till I found it myself.

Ed Z



Ed,

There are some highly respected scholars who leave open the possibility of Bronze Age cultural interaction.
Michael Coe, the Mayan Professor, remained covinced that at some very early time there was an influencial transmission of basic intellectual ideas from the east to Mesoamerica. It struck him, like it does me, how China and the Maya placed a single jade bead in the mouths of dead kings. It is not unusual to find two cultures who would value jade as the highest form of matter, yet it is unusual for two cultures to value the same exact shade of green jade as being most desirable. It was also the great sinologist Joseph Needham who said that even though the proponents of trans-oceanic contact could be refuted on almost every point, there remained an 'insoluble residuum of belief in PreColumbian contact'. So I don't believe it is quite true to say that the more one knows about the civilizations, the less likely one finds the diffusion premise. That has an element of circuitous reasoning.
Also, regarding the mummies and nicotine, I believe the forensic reports of Babaklanova were done with hair folicle tests which do require the subject to ingest and metabolize the nicotine while alive.
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