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#1 caocao74

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 06:07 AM

I'm just reading a concise volume on Russian history and I'm at the point at which the Mongols appear from across the steppe. The author describes the Mangudai as the 'suicide corps' :g: . Is this in anby way correct??
"All men are influenced by partisanship, and there are few who have wide vision." Shoutoku Taishi (allegedly)


#2 shurite7

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 04:53 PM

I'm just reading a concise volume on Russian history and I'm at the point at which the Mongols appear from across the steppe. The author describes the Mangudai as the 'suicide corps' :g: . Is this in anby way correct??


Sort of. Mangudai (according my sources) means "God Belonging"...Harold Lamb (he's questionable). I've also seen it as "advanced troops", going ahead of the army and engaging the enemy then breaking off making it look as if they are routing hoping the enemy will pursue. If they were a suicide unit and killed off they really wouldn't do much for the main army when taking into account Mongol/Turkish tactics.

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#3 Guest_Sawa_*

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 02:11 AM

Hmm I always thought they were elite troops, but maybe I was playing too much Age of Empires.

#4 caocao74

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 06:30 AM

Hmm I always thought they were elite troops, but maybe I was playing too much Age of Empires.



Exactly what I thought (and admittedly for the same reason :D )
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#5 shurite7

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 03:07 PM

Exactly what I thought (and admittedly for the same reason :D )


In a sense they were. At least the elite of the light cavalry. It takes good training, high motivation with good command and control to perform their function. Knowing when to engage and when to start pulling back to encourage the pursuit is a well known tactic whilst the Mangudai brought it to an art. Suicide troops for the Mongols were the conscripts that were forced to go ahead of the cavalry to absorb the enemy's missle fire. I'm sure the conscripts did not do it by choice.

Unfortunetely the people who came up with Age of Empires had a Eurocentric theme. Elite for the Mongols should have been the Keshik. Still a fun game.
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#6 caocao74

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 12:06 PM

Unfortunetely the people who came up with Age of Empires had a Eurocentric theme. Elite for the Mongols should have been the Keshik. Still a fun game.



Agreed, fun game :D

Care to expand on the Keshik?
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#7 wuTao

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 03:15 PM

I'm just reading a concise volume on Russian history and I'm at the point at which the Mongols appear from across the steppe. The author describes the Mangudai as the 'suicide corps' :g: . Is this in anby way correct??


What's the title of the book? Would you recommend it?

#8 caocao74

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 10:55 AM

What's the title of the book? Would you recommend it?



Well, I can't remember the exact title. I'd recommend it if you're like me and you're looking for a quick bassic history of Russia, the USSR & CIS, if you're not too keyed in on the subject (like me), otherwise there's no doubt something better out there.

I'll post the name later when I get home.
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#9 shurite7

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 05:53 PM

Agreed, fun game :D

Care to expand on the Keshik?


Keshik / keshig were the guards or imperial guards. In the beginning of Ghengis Khan's reign it was a small group of loyal follower's consisting of of day guard (turghaut), night guard (kabtaut), archers (korchin) and another group of personal guard/champions (forget what they were called).

The first mention of the Keshik is in 1203 with the following numbers turghaut-70, kabtaut-80, korchin-400 and the champions around 1000. Over time this grew to 10,000 men, a full touman.

Not only were the keshik a loyal group, any member of the keshik was fit to command a full touman within the Mongol army. According to different sources there were around 9 toumans at the time of Ghengis Khan's invasion of Khwarizmia.

It is indicated the keshik made up the elite of the heavily armed cavalry carrying a composite bow, lance, mace or axe or sword, and a lasso. Armour for the men was lamellar covering much of the body and some horse's were also equipped with barding. It is not defenitive as to whether they carried shields or not but there indication the kabtaut used it. Some illustrations seem to give all the keshik a shield and barding. The keshik was normally positioned in the middle of the army to be used as a shock force when closing into combat after the light horse archers softened the enemy.

Sources; The Mongols by S R Turnbull, The Mongols by David Morgan, Mongol Warrior 1200-1350 by Stephen Turnbull, Khublai Khan: His Life and Legacy by M Rossabi.

cheers
zai jian

Chris

#10 tadamson

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 09:56 AM

Mangudai "God Belonging", was a term for the advanced scouts who went ahead of the army to spy out the land. It was a "high risk" profession, but they weren't battlefield troops as such.

Keshik, is better translated as household. Temuljin's keshik is the best known but other leaders also had them. As well as the close bodyguard, night guard, arrow guard, dayguard (the elite batlefield unit of eight mingams from 1205) and 'heroes', the keshik was responsible for procuring, manufacturing, storing and issuing lances, shields, arrows and artillery (and other stuff).
rgds.

Tom..

#11 caocao74

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 01:04 PM

Thanks to tadamason & shurite7
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#12 shurite7

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 03:35 PM

I ran across some interesting info on another forum regarding the Mangudai. It comments there were 2 tribes (Uru'ut and Maghut) who formed the vanguard of Chingis Khan's army because they were warlike. It also states they existed in the early army of Temujin. Since they used Temujin instead of Chingis it could be the Mangudai existed during the rise of Temujin's power and were almagamated into other tribes after he became Khan.

Cheers
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Chris

#13 tadamson

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 08:50 AM

I ran across some interesting info on another forum regarding the Mangudai. It comments there were 2 tribes (Uru'ut and Maghut) who formed the vanguard of Chingis Khan's army because they were warlike. It also states they existed in the early army of Temujin. Since they used Temujin instead of Chingis it could be the Mangudai existed during the rise of Temujin's power and were almagamated into other tribes after he became Khan.

Cheers


Hi Chris,

Mangudai (litt: god belonging ie already dead) doesn't come from Maghut...

The term almost certainly predates Temuljin. (like turman, cherig, bahadur etc)
rgds.

Tom..

#14 shurite7

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 05:25 PM

Hi Chris,

Mangudai (litt: god belonging ie already dead) doesn't come from Maghut...

The term almost certainly predates Temuljin. (like turman, cherig, bahadur etc)


Hm, good point.

This leads me to ask, was the Mangudai formation/unit (whatever you want to call it) actually used after Chingis rose to power. When reviewing over the campaigns against the Xi Xia, Jin & Khwarizmians there is no specific mention of the Mangudai. The term seems to be described in chapters dedicated to describing the Mongol army, such aurthors as Hartog or David Morgan.

Chris
zai jian

Chris

#15 tadamson

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 08:08 AM

Hm, good point.

This leads me to ask, was the Mangudai formation/unit (whatever you want to call it) actually used after Chingis rose to power. When reviewing over the campaigns against the Xi Xia, Jin & Khwarizmians there is no specific mention of the Mangudai. The term seems to be described in chapters dedicated to describing the Mongol army, such aurthors as Hartog or David Morgan.

Chris


Significant numbers of long range scouts are found in all Mongol campaigns (eg the Englishman captured in Western Hungary at the start of the European campaign).

Western autheors (well publishers really, but we have to please them) like to add comments about exotic elements in ancient armies etc.. "god belonging" soldiers fall into this category. It's quite possible that the term was more slang than official, it's very rarely used in the sources.
rgds.

Tom..




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