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#1 MengTzu

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 07:50 PM

In what year did the Qing government require the Han Chinese to wear the pigtails?

#2 snowybeagle

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 08:36 PM

The 剃发令 was first imposed on the Jurchens (Manchus 满族) males in AD 1644, and prior to their succession conquest, all males under their regime were required to follow.

In the 5th month of the same year, Duoergun (Dorgon 多尔衮) led the troops to march into Beijing and tried to impose the same order on their new subjects. This was met with such great resistance that it was abandoned.

In the 5th month of the following year (AD 1645), the Qing captured Nanjing and destroyed one of the southern Ming factions, under the HongGuang (弘光) emperor.

In the 6th month, the Qing Court reissued the order.

#3 l0ckx

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 09:29 PM

the chinese actually had a bigger problem with the tonsure cut as it went against confucian morals. It was regarded as humuliating and extremely unmasculine. the queue (pigtail) was in addition to this.

#4 qrasy

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 07:14 AM

The 剃发令 was first imposed on the Jurchens (Manchus 满族) males in AD 1644, and prior to their succession conquest, all males under their regime were required to follow.

Actually for what reason did they choose that style (and force to their people) ?

In the 5th month of the same year, Duoergun (Dorgon 多尔衮) led the troops to march into Beijing and tried to impose the same order on their new subjects. This was met with such great resistance that it was abandoned.

So when was pigtail hairstyle accepted in Beijing?

In the 5th month of the following year (AD 1645), the Qing captured Nanjing and destroyed one of the southern Ming factions, under the HongGuang (弘光) emperor.

In the 6th month, the Qing Court reissued the order.

Didn't they receive great resistance?

the chinese actually had a bigger problem with the tonsure cut as it went against confucian morals. It was regarded as humuliating and extremely unmasculine. the queue (pigtail) was in addition to this.

What's with tonsure cuts?
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#5 l0ckx

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 02:42 PM

tonsure:

1. The act of shaving the head or part of the head, especially as a preliminary to becoming a priest or a member of a monastic order.

2. The part of a monk's or priest's head that has been shaved.

Chinese foreheads to about the middle of their head was shaved and the rest of the hair on the back of their head was braided into a single queue or 'pigtail'.

check it, check it out:

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Edited by l0ckx, 20 December 2005 - 02:46 PM.


#6 Hoa Phau

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 12:04 AM

i think wearing pigtails during the qing makes han chinese losing its true identity. forcing themselves to act lower. is this chinese racism imposed by the qings?

Edited by Hoa Phau, 16 March 2006 - 12:05 AM.

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#7 General_Zhaoyun

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 12:30 AM

i think wearing pigtails during the qing makes han chinese losing its true identity. forcing themselves to act lower. is this chinese racism imposed by the qings?


They are not "wearing" pigtails. It has nothing to do with 'chinese racism', since the Manchu themselves became sinified. The pigtails are infact a manchurian hair-style. One of the main aims of having pigtails at the back is to make the han-chinese 'forget' that they are originally han-chinese, so as to allow the manchu to more easily rule China without having to face any possible rebellion of han-chinese. If the han-chinese continues to have the han-chinese hair-style, they will be constantly be reminded of who they were 'originally' (i.e. han-chinese) and might be more likely to rebel against the Manchu rulers. This imposition of having pigtails was a policy used to effectively rule China. Anyone found not growing pigtails will be executed.
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Posted 21 March 2006 - 11:03 PM

wow.... the people in the past have good brains :blink:

#9 l0ckx

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 11:10 PM

wow.... the people in the past have good brains :blink:


there is actually another thread on the book soulstealers here : http://www.chinahist...hl=soulstealers

the book analyzes the sorcery scare in 1768, when people believed sorcers were going around cutting queues. the book talks about everything related to the queue, hairstyle, when it was imposed, etc.

Edited by l0ckx, 21 March 2006 - 11:11 PM.


#10 jwrevak

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 08:58 PM

Actually for what reason did they choose that style (and force to their people) ?

Some historians have suggested that it was a practical way for the Manchus to determine on the battlefield and elswhere if a given Chinese was loyal to the new dynasty. A quick visual inspection told them if a given Chienese was loyal to the Qing or not. A Chinese who had adopted the Manchu hairstyle was, of course, considered loyal. Similarly, Chinese were also forced to adopt Manchu costume. And do keep in mind that it took years for the Manchus to fully dominate the Chinese, especially in the South. Therefore, a practical way to determine who was loyal and who was not would have indeed been helpful. However, given how much trouble the new rules about hair caused, I'm unsure if it was worth it.

However, to be fair, one must note that the Manchus did exempt Chinese buddhists, who wore a tonsure for religious reasons, from having to adopt the Manchu hairstyle.
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#11 snowybeagle

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 12:18 AM

Actually for what reason did they choose that style (and force to their people) ?

Ironically, some accounts blamed the idea of making the pigtails mandatory for all citizens (with excemptions on religious grounds) on ethnic Hans rather on the Manchus.

Prior to AD 1644, there were a number of ethnic Hans serving in the Qing Court which had the capital in present day ShenYang.

Some of them, such as Fan WenCheng, were people living in Jurchen territories or captured commoners during the rise of the Later Jin Dynasty.

Some of them, such as Hong ChengChou, were Ming soldiers captured in battles.

Many of them adopted the Manchu hairstyle when they pledge loyalty to the Manchu state.

After the successful conquest of Beijing, more ethnic Han officials and generals and citizens surrendered and served the new regime. At that point in time, they were not required to adopt the Manchu hairstyle.

The Manchu court made distinction between officials of Manchu ethnicity and of Han ethnicity, and these two groups of people had separate areas of assembly.

Thus, the ethnic Han officials who did adopt the Manchu hairstyle and did not adopt the hairstyle assembled in the same area.

In the same area, these people began to discriminate each other, mainly, the more numerous latter against the former.

Imagine, you are an ethnic Han who adopted the hairstyle of the ethnic group of the ruler you serve, but you have to put up with scowls and sneers from your ethnic Han colleagues who join later but still retain their original Ming appearances.

They taunted you, referred to your hairstyle as unfilial (according to ethnic Han traditions), or worse, having been a willing participant in bringing the barbarians to rule the civilized empire of the Middle Kingdom (implying they were excused because they had no other choice).

One particular official by the name of Sūn ZhīXič (孙之獬) was so angered by such treatments that he proposed the law to Prince Regent Dorgon in AD 1645 after the Manchu's conquest of the south.

Sūn ZhīXič was a scholar who took the Imperial Exams conducted by the Qing Court in AD 1622.
After the fall of Beijing, he found he was not welcomed to congregate with ethnic Manchu officials, but he was also made to feel awful among many ethnic Han officials who did not accept him.

The law was met with great resistance among the ethnic Hans, which saw armed revolts among the ethnic Hans who had surrendered earlier, some willingly. One of the tragedies which resulted was the Three Massacres of JiaDing (嘉定三屠).

#12 Sephodwyrm

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 04:14 AM

Yes...and it delayed Manchu conquest by perhaps another 10 years at least.
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#13 snowybeagle

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Posted 26 March 2006 - 09:41 AM

I just thought of something ...

The Qing Empire included territories of the Mongols, the Miaos and Uighurs etc.

However, the queue, or pigtails, were only imposed on the ethnic Hans, is that correct?

If so, were ethnic Mongols/Miao/Uighur etc., who joined the mainstream society and perhaps entered officialdom excempted from sporting the Manchu hairstyle?

#14 jwrevak

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 08:49 PM

They are not "wearing" pigtails. It has nothing to do with 'chinese racism', since the Manchu themselves became sinified. The pigtails are infact a manchurian hair-style. One of the main aims of having pigtails at the back is to make the han-chinese 'forget' that they are originally han-chinese, so as to allow the manchu to more easily rule China without having to face any possible rebellion of han-chinese. If the han-chinese continues to have the han-chinese hair-style, they will be constantly be reminded of who they were 'originally' (i.e. han-chinese) and might be more likely to rebel against the Manchu rulers. This imposition of having pigtails was a policy used to effectively rule China. Anyone found not growing pigtails will be executed.

However, to be clear I believe that the Manchus never became completely sinified. Certainly they were far from 100% sinified when they conquered Northern China in 1644. If they had been completely sinified at that time, they wouldn't have worn pigtails and they certainly wouldn't have insisted upon Chinese wearing them. In reality, the Manchus retained aspects of their own culture right down to the final days of the dynasty.

Turning to racisim, I doubt the term "racist" applies to the Manchu relationship with Chinese. They clearly highly esteemed Chinese culture. They patronized it and, to a great degree, adopted it. However, they also drew a fairly clear line between themselves and the Chinese when they conquered Northern China in 1644. From that day onwards, the Manchus had to maintain their power over the numerous Chinese who were clearly different from them, but at the same time they had to show an appreciation for native Chinese traditions to win Chinese hearts asnd minds. Qing government might be described as a grand and complex balancing act.

Later, of course, the line between Manchus and Chinese blurred, yet it remained in place through the downfall of the dyansty in 1911. Throughout the dyansty's history Manchus were fairly regularly given rights and advantages that Chinese didn't enjoy. Clearly the Manchus maintained themselves as a priveleged class--their adoption of and enthusiasm for much of Chinese culture notwithstanding.
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#15 Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 09:36 PM

Any notion of "racism" is a total misinterpretation of Qing policy. People simply haven't read any of the Qing sources.

This is a quote from Da Yi Jue Mi Lu by Yong Zheng.

"自古中国一统之世,幅员不能广远,其中有不向化者,则斥之为夷狄。如三代以上之有苗、荆、楚、狁,即为湖南、湖北、山西之地也,在今日而目为夷狄可乎?至于汉、唐、宋全盛之时,北狄、西戎世为边患,从未能克服而有其地,是以有此疆彼界之分。自我朝入主中土,君临天下,并蒙古极边诸部落俱归版图,是中国之疆土开拓广远,乃中国臣民之大幸,何得尚有华夷中外之分论哉?”

It clearly mentions that the Yi people are only those outside of the border, people during the 3 dynasties such as Miao, Chu, Di, and Rong. Since the celestial dynasty united everyone, China's border have expanded and its the Chinese people's great fortune, and there shouldn't be any difference between hua and Yi, Internal and external.




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