Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Trieu Da (ZhaoTuo) in Wikipedia


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 thankstoall

thankstoall

    General of the Guard (Hujun Zhongwei/Jinjun Tongshuai 护军中尉/禁军统帅)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 133 posts

Posted 25 December 2005 - 06:39 PM

The link to ZhaoTuo (unfortunately in Chinese):
http://zh.wikipedia....org/wiki/赵佗
You can click any colored character (more accurately: words) for detail information.

The link to History of Vietnam:
http://en.wikipedia....tory_of_Vietnam

A quotation from this webpage:
The Triệu dynasty is a controversial era among Vietnamese. Some consider it a Chinese domination, because Triệu Đ was a Qin general who defeated An Dương Vương to established his rule. Yet others consider it an era of independence, because Triệu Đ's family ruled Nam Việt in defiance of the Han dynasty until 111 BC, when the Han troops invaded the country and incorporated it into the Han empire as Giao Chỉ prefecture.

In the above text,
Triệu Đ = ZhaoTuo, Nam Việt = NanYue, An Dương Vương = AnYangWang, Giao Chỉ = JiaoZhi.

I do not say or mean that my Chinese is very well or superior to anybody's.
I did mean that people need at least to read the above texts with understanding.

You are encouraged to critisize either my opinion in this thread or any points in the wikipedia texts by the above links. The truth is revealed better via argumnents and critisizms.


藩西湖曰「不廢漢學不可救南國」
Cụ Phan Ty Hồ: "Khng phế bỏ Hn Học, khng cứu được nước Nam".

#2 Kulong

Kulong

    Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 1,487 posts

Posted 25 December 2005 - 06:50 PM

If this was only a response to a specific member, in this case TrueViet, why not just use the PM system? ;)
生為中國人,死為中國魂。

"You can believe in any god, as long as it's our God."

#3 thankstoall

thankstoall

    General of the Guard (Hujun Zhongwei/Jinjun Tongshuai 护军中尉/禁军统帅)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 133 posts

Posted 25 December 2005 - 07:16 PM

Following your links, I have gone thru the article. Though I had not read all, there is something that should be revised.

The following quotations are from wikipedia.
The link to History of Vietnam:
http://en.wikipedia....tory_of_Vietnam



Vietnam regained independence in 939 AD, and complete autonomy a century later. While for much of its history, Vietnam remained a vassal state to the much larger China, it defeated three Mongolian attempts of invasion during the Yuan Dynasty, when China was under Mongolian rule.


By the meaning of autonomy and vassal state, I suppose that you mean "autonomy" = "independence" and "vassal state" = "kingdom". Otherwise, you assumed Vietnam's "autonomy" is something like Tibet in China now, and Vietnamese kingdom is supposed to be similar to a state in the United States or Germany.

By the 3rd century BC, another Viet group, the u Việt, emigrated from present southern China to the Red River delta and mixed with the indigenous Văn Lang population. In 258 BC, a new kingdom called u Lạc (from the union of the u Việt and the Lạc Việt) was formed by Thục Phn in North Vietnam.


The origin of the Thu.c Pha'n tribe is not yet concluded. In addition, you omitted the war between La.c tribe of Hu`ng King and A^u tribe of Thu.c King. Won this war, Thu.c Pha'n took over La.c Viet and came to power. Should you think that Thu.c Pha'n is invader or the war between Hu`ng (La.c) and Thu.c (A^u) is to unite the kingdom? Similarly, consider the war between Au Lac and Nam Viet.

Vương (Triệu Đ) 196 BC-137 BC
Văn Vương 137 BC-125 BC
Minh Vương 125 BC-113 BC
p Vương 113 BC-111 BC
Dương Vương 111 BC


1. According to Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu, Trieu Da pronounced himself as "Emperor" = Dde^' in Vietnamese and Di (武帝)in Chinese. In the wikipedia, it becomes " Vương" (王) = "King" or "Lord".

2. "p Vương" should be "Ai Vương". "A'p" means a duck.

3. "Dương Vương" should be "Thua^.t Dương Vương". There was no "Dương Vương".




If this was only a response to a specific member, in this case TrueViet, why not just use the PM system? ;)



But this is also problem of Vietnamese, you are welcome to join discussion.

Regards,

TTA
藩西湖曰「不廢漢學不可救南國」
Cụ Phan Ty Hồ: "Khng phế bỏ Hn Học, khng cứu được nước Nam".

#4 Kulong

Kulong

    Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 1,487 posts

Posted 25 December 2005 - 07:22 PM

But this is also problem of Vietnamese, you are welcome to join discussion.

Perhaps later, but thanks for clarifying. Sometimes people start threads in the PUBLIC forum with messages or statements directed toward a specific member and gets upset when other people participate... go figure. :rolleyes:
生為中國人,死為中國魂。

"You can believe in any god, as long as it's our God."

#5 TrueViet

TrueViet

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 393 posts

Posted 26 December 2005 - 02:22 AM

1. According to Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu, Trieu Da pronounced himself as "Emperor" = Dde^'
in Vietnamese and Di (武帝) in Chinese. In the wikipedia, it becomes " Vương" (王) = "King" or "Lord".


I posted the 2 links: one to ZhaoTuo, and other to History of Vietnam.
Prior to that post, I discussed on "Is ZhaoTuo a Chinese King or Vietnamese King."

In your post in response to my posts, you quoted idea from DaYueShuJuQuanShu -
GreatVietHistoryWholeBook - in opposit view from Wikipedia. I have not read DYSJQS
yet. In Wiki, it says that ZhaoTuo once pronounced to be Chinese Emperor, and then
briefly after that, he withdrew that title, and remained King to the rest of his life.

I summarized the story from Wikipedia as:
At the time of LuHou (La~ Ha^.u, after LiuBang- Lu*u Bang) ZhaoTuo assumed that
LuHou might want to attact NanViet via ChangSha (Long Sands, another rebellion nation
in mordern HuNan (Ho^` Nam) area). He then pronouced as NanYue WuDi (Vu~ DDe^')
LuHou attempted to attact him, and failed. Her army has not reach NanLing (Nam Li~nh)
yet. When LuHou died one year later, the attempted war stopped. LiuHeng (Lu*u Ha(`ng)
Han Emperor persuaded ZhaoTuo to be a local king of Han empire. In his kingdom
ZhaoTuo still used his old title as NanYue HuangDi (Emperor of NanYue).

#6 thankstoall

thankstoall

    General of the Guard (Hujun Zhongwei/Jinjun Tongshuai 护军中尉/禁军统帅)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 133 posts

Posted 26 December 2005 - 06:40 AM

I posted the 2 links: one to ZhaoTuo, and other to History of Vietnam.
Prior to that post, I discussed on "Is ZhaoTuo a Chinese King or Vietnamese King."

In your post in response to my posts, you quoted idea from DaYueShuJuQuanShu -
GreatVietHistoryWholeBook - in opposit view from Wikipedia. I have not read DYSJQS
yet. In Wiki, it says that ZhaoTuo once pronounced to be Chinese Emperor, and then
briefly after that, he withdrew that title, and remained King to the rest of his life.

I summarized the story from Wikipedia as:
At the time of LuHou (La~ Ha^.u, after LiuBang- Lu*u Bang) ZhaoTuo assumed that
LuHou might want to attact NanViet via ChangSha (Long Sands, another rebellion nation
in mordern HuNan (Ho^` Nam) area). He then pronouced as NanYue WuDi (Vu~ DDe^')
LuHou attempted to attact him, and failed. Her army has not reach NanLing (Nam Li~nh)
yet. When LuHou died one year later, the attempted war stopped. LiuHeng (Lu*u Ha(`ng)
Han Emperor persuaded ZhaoTuo to be a local king of Han empire. In his kingdom
ZhaoTuo still used his old title as NanYue HuangDi (Emperor of NanYue).



Who said? Can you make it more specific?

Another thing is that the article about Vietnamese history is grammatically inconsistent. Some parts show a working knowledge English and some others show a fluency. Some are likely to be written by Chinese thought, some are closed to Vietnamese structure of sentence and verbal pattern.

If you write about Vietnamese history that is not solely owned by you. You should be serious in every point before make it public.

However, in the case that you are one of co-authors that may include some Chinese study-mates. You should have more closer co-operation with him/her/them for avoiding the inadequacy between the capability of giving Chinese scripts and the incapability of making correct translation/convertibility. I do not know why this happen. Let's see a recent summary:

Her army has not reach NanLing (Nam Li~nh) yet.


"Nanling" should be "Lingnan" and "Nam Li~nh" should be "Li~nh Nam". I do not know why? "Li~nh Nam" and "LingNan" are common words in history study of both Vietnamese and Chinese languages, I suppose that you know Chinese because you wrote "Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu" of Vietnamese as DaYueShuJuQuanShu - in Chinese. But, how did these happen?

Regards,

TTA
藩西湖曰「不廢漢學不可救南國」
Cụ Phan Ty Hồ: "Khng phế bỏ Hn Học, khng cứu được nước Nam".

#7 TrueViet

TrueViet

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 393 posts

Posted 26 December 2005 - 08:34 AM

Who said? Can you make it more specific?

Another thing is that the article about Vietnamese history is grammatically inconsistent. Some parts show a working knowledge English and some others show a fluency. Some are likely to be written by Chinese thought, some are closed to Vietnamese structure of sentence and verbal pattern.

If you write about Vietnamese history that is not solely owned by you. You should be serious in every point before make it public.

However, in the case that you are one of co-authors that may include some Chinese study-mates. You should have more closer co-operation with him/her/them for avoiding the inadequacy between the capability of giving Chinese scripts and the incapability of making correct translation/convertibility. I do not know why this happen. Let's see a recent summary:

"Her army has not reach NanLing (Nam Li~nh) yet."
"Nanling" should be "Lingnan" and "Nam Li~nh" should be "Li~nh Nam". I do not know why? "Li~nh Nam" and "LingNan" are common words in history study of both Vietnamese and Chinese languages, I suppose that you know Chinese because you wrote "Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu" of Vietnamese as DaYueShuJuQuanShu - in Chinese. But, how did these happen?


Please, could you make your question more specific in "Who said?"

I am serious in every point, or whatever I say or write, private or public.

I am a blue-colar worker rather than a historian or a writer. I have very limited knowledge of wikipedia.

Yes. I know Chinese enough to read mordern Chinese articles, and compose simple essays in Chinese.
I do not have any Chinese Word Processing Software to write Chinese text with ease. I have a free
download Chinese-English dictionary, that helps me to write Chinese text anyway.

The more exact version of the sentence you quote is:
"Her army has not passed NanLing (Nam Li~nh) yet." which mean that the army may reach the landmark
but it has not passed the landmark. I have no idea where this landmark locates in China or Vietnam.

NanLing is a name of a landmark, and it may mean "the South Mountain." (It sounds nonsense to me.)
When I translate a noun - a name in Chinese - into English, I give its HanYu PinYin, rather than its meaning.
It is a common practice for most of the interpreters.
LingNan is not correct HanYu PinYin of the original name in Chinese.
When I translate its meaning into Vietnamese, the wording order may be reversed as "the Mountain South."
In my English version, I cannot translate in Vietnamese grammatical rule. So, "the South Mountain" is more
correct in the English version.
When I translate a noun - a name in Chinese - into Vietnamese, I give its HanViet name, rather than its
meaning. It is also a common practice for most of the interpreters. HanViet is similar to HanYu PinYin.
It is like the YueYu PinYin version of the HanYu PinYin version.
The name of the landmark in Vietnamese version is NamLi~nh, and its meaning in Vietnamese is "Nu'i Nam."

I know my English is not great. However, reading my English, you need to understand the message I want
to deliver, and help me out when you can, rather than merely giving your negative criticisms.
I pay more attention to the content, to what the poster is trying to say, rather than his/her grammar or
punctuations or wordings. That offers me easy time in communication graping the messages better.

#8 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 26 December 2005 - 08:53 AM

NanLing is a name of a landmark, and it may mean "the South Mountain." (It sounds nonsense to me.)


If you look at a topographical map of China, you will see a mountain range separating Guangdong from Hunan. That's the Southern Range, or Nanling. Indeed, that is how Guangdong got its traditional name of Lingnan, which means South of the Range (i.e. south of the Nanling).

See http://www.factmonst...d/A0834804.html

So it's not nonsense, just geography ;)

Edited by Yun, 26 December 2005 - 08:55 AM.

The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#9 TrueViet

TrueViet

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 393 posts

Posted 26 December 2005 - 09:52 AM

If you look at a topographical map of China, you will see a mountain range separating Guangdong from Hunan. That's the Southern Range, or Nanling. Indeed, that is how Guangdong got its traditional name of Lingnan, which means South of the Range (i.e. south of the Nanling).

See http://www.factmonst...d/A0834804.html

So it's not nonsense, just geography ;)


Thank you for giving me a lesson on geography.

I said it is nonsense to only me, for I am not good in Chinese georgraph.
I have been in North Vietnam for 35 years, and I have been in Vietnam
highlands for many years. However, I was a countryman who worked
hard to earn a living rather than a book-worm who read about NanLing
or LingNan in Vietnamese works. That is my ignorance of the words.

Now I can read Vietnamese History materials with good understanding
of Li~nh Nam and Nam Li~nh.


This line is to hold up my text higher from the ground for easy reading.

#10 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 26 December 2005 - 09:59 AM

I have been in North Vietnam for 35 years, and I have been in Vietnam
highlands for many years. However, I was a countryman who worked
hard to earn a living rather than a book-worm who read about NanLing
or LingNan in Vietnamese works. That is my ignorance of the words.


I respect your humility, and recognize that you have not had the chance to read as many books as city people. Actually, I know relatively little about Vietnamese geography myself, other than the basics. For example, I don't know which are the provinces of Vietnam today, and how their names are written in Chinese characters. Perhaps you can help teach me this? :)

It should also be vindicating to you to know that Thankstoall's criticism of your translation of 'Nanling' was incorrect since he, too, did not know about the Nanling, only about Lingnan.

In a similar way, many Chinese only know there is a 'Yue Nan' (Vietnam), but do not know that there was once a 'Nan Yue'. So they make silly statements about Vietnam meaning 'South of the Yue', without knowing that the name 'Vietnam' is actually a modification of the old name Nan Yue (Nam Viet).

Edited by Yun, 26 December 2005 - 10:04 AM.

The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#11 qrasy

qrasy

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 4,722 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Physics, Chemistry, Maths, Biology, Languages, Ethnicity, History, etc.
  • Languages spoken:Mandarin Chinese, Indonesian, English, Cantonese
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Han Chinese (Southeastern)
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Other Interests
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Chinese Linguistics

Posted 26 December 2005 - 03:30 PM

What I heard is that Changsha had (political, perhaps also military?) conflicts with Nan Yue, then in some ways Changsha lord made L Hou stop support of tools toward Nan Yue. The Zhao family's tomb was also sacked in the North.
So Nan Yue rebelled, and attacked Changsha, and L Hou sent army to fight Nan Yue.
After Queen L died, one of Han emperor repaired his ancestor's tomb, and persuaded him to subjugate to the Han authority again, and he agreed.

I think I read here: http://www.town-all....l21.asp?BID=227 I have not read it again, and might have forgotten or mis-recalled somethings.

Edited by qrasy, 26 December 2005 - 03:32 PM.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK


#12 TrueViet

TrueViet

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 393 posts

Posted 27 December 2005 - 03:07 AM

Actually, I know relatively little about Vietnamese geography myself, other than the basics. For example, I don't know which are the provinces of Vietnam today, and how their names are written in Chinese characters. Perhaps you can help teach me this? :)

Yun: I am happy to be of help.
I left Vietnam more than 20 years ago, and I am now in the US.
There is no problem on translating Vietnamese names into Chinese.
However, I need a Vietnamese map to obtain the names of all provinces in Vietnam.

#13 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 27 December 2005 - 03:37 AM

No problem! I'll start another thread and put up a map of the Vietnamese provinces.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#14 thankstoall

thankstoall

    General of the Guard (Hujun Zhongwei/Jinjun Tongshuai 护军中尉/禁军统帅)

  • CHF Rookie Member
  • 133 posts

Posted 27 December 2005 - 08:32 AM

Dear TrueViet,

Do not feel negative.


Please, could you make your question more specific in "Who said?"

I am serious in every point, or whatever I say or write, private or public.

I have very limited knowledge of wikipedia.


What did you write here?

I want to add to this thread that some ignorant Vietnamese want to claim ZhaoTuo as the first Vietnamese king, for their imbalance between their ambition and their ability to read Chinese. When I posted my opinion on ZhaoTuo and the first Vietnamese king in Vietnamese forums to correct their idea with my Vietnamese version of the text in the wikipedia page, nobody could utter a word against me.

http://www.chinahist...pic=7396&st=375


Then I replied

Because this engine provides general and working knowledge only, nobody cares the credit of its content. I never refer anything in wiki.

Can you give me a link of wikipedia to what you wrote about Vietnamese history? Perhaps, I would not make you disappointed in "nobody could utter a word against me."

Regards,

TTA


And you gave me links to what you said that were yours.


The link to ZhaoTuo (unfortunately in Chinese):
http://zh.wikipedia....org/wiki/赵佗
You can click any colored character (more accurately: words) for detail information.

The link to History of Vietnam:
http://en.wikipedia....tory_of_Vietnam

A quotation from this webpage:
The Triệu dynasty is a controversial era among Vietnamese. Some consider it a Chinese domination, because Triệu Đ was a Qin general who defeated An Dương Vương to established his rule. Yet others consider it an era of independence, because Triệu Đ's family ruled Nam Việt in defiance of the Han dynasty until 111 BC, when the Han troops invaded the country and incorporated it into the Han empire as Giao Chỉ prefecture.

In the above text,
Triệu Đ = ZhaoTuo, Nam Việt = NanYue, An Dương Vương = AnYangWang, Giao Chỉ = JiaoZhi.

I do not say or mean that my Chinese is very well or superior to anybody's.
I did mean that people need at least to read the above texts with understanding.
You are encouraged to critisize either my opinion in this thread or any points in the wikipedia texts by the above links. The truth is revealed better via argumnents and critisizms.


And when I give criticism, you become sensitive. English is not a controversy, but I was serious when one can misuse of “autonomy” and “independence”, “vassal” and “kingdom”. You mentioned that you were the author of that Wiki’s article, so I needed to response to you. In the case that you were not, leave this. A Vietnamese would not write like that.

When I saw some translated words like “A’p Vuong” and “Duong Vuong”, I doubted that that Wiki’s article is written by Chinese, not by Vietnamese. Because a Vietnamese writer may not easy to fall in such mistakes since he/she can refer to all Vietnamese history books such as Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu and Viet Su Luoc. This kind of mistake is easy to happen when that writer originally referred Chinese history texts, then he/she poorly translated those words to Vietnamese.

I became more skeptical when you called “Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu” as “DaYueShuJuQuanShu” in Chinese, you do not know Vietnamese? Or your habit is to call thing first in Chinese? In addition, you gave a summary below which is exactly from Chinese version of Wiki.

I summarized the story from Wikipedia as:
At the time of LuHou (La~ Ha^.u, after LiuBang- Lu*u Bang) ZhaoTuo assumed that
LuHou might want to attact NanViet via ChangSha (Long Sands, another rebellion nation
in mordern HuNan (Ho^` Nam) area). He then pronouced as NanYue WuDi (Vu~ DDe^')
LuHou attempted to attact him, and failed. Her army has not reach NanLing (Nam Li~nh)
yet. When LuHou died one year later, the attempted war stopped. LiuHeng (Lu*u Ha(`ng)
Han Emperor persuaded ZhaoTuo to be a local king of Han empire. In his kingdom
ZhaoTuo still used his old title as NanYue HuangDi (Emperor of NanYue).



This paragraph is exactly translated from the Chinese version of Wikipedia, here:

汉高祖刘邦去世后,吕后临朝,开始和赵佗交恶。.....赵佗觉得吕后可能会通过长沙国(汉朝的另一个番属国,位于南越国北部,现湖南省境内)来吞并他,于是赵佗宣布脱离汉朝,自称“南越武帝”,......
吕后随即派遣大将隆虑侯和周灶前去攻打赵佗,但由于中原的士兵不适应南越一带炎热和潮湿的气侯,纷纷得病,连南岭都没有越过。一年后,吕后死去,汉朝的军队停止了进攻。
这时的赵佗凭借着他的军队扬威于南越一带,并通过财物贿赂的方式,使得闽越、西瓯和骆越都纷纷归属南越,领地范围扩张至顶峰。赵佗也开始以皇帝的身份发号施令,与汉朝对立起来。

吕后死后,汉文帝刘恒即位,.......令其再次出使南越说服赵佗归汉。
..........但是在南越国内,赵佗仍然继续用着皇帝的名号。

Therefore, I doubted that you were a fake Vietnamese, or there were some Chinese behind you, so I asked you about Nanling/Lingnan and Li~nh Nam/Nam Li~nh.

Of course, Nanling is a name of mountain range in Southern China. Lingnan is the southward region of Nanling mountain range. I has Chinese geography atlas, but I prefer to call it Ngu~ Li~nh - Wuling, not Nanling. Similarly, Vietnamese rarely call “South China Sea” but “East Sea”. A few Vietnamese calls it Nam Li~nh or Nanling. This is verbal habit in speaking.

南岭(南岭山脉;五岭、五岭山脉),由越城岭、都庞岭、萌渚岭、骑田岭、大庾岭五座山组成,故又称“五岭”。地处广东、广西、湖南、江西五省区交界处。是中国江南最大的横向构造带山脉,是长江和珠江二大流域的分水岭。长期以来,是天然屏障,南岭山脉阻碍了岭南地区与中原的交通与经济联系,使岭南地区的经济、文化远不及中原地区,被北人称为“蛮夷之地”。自唐朝宰相张九龄在大庾岭开凿了梅关古道以后,岭南地区才得到逐步地开发。古代的统治者总是利用南岭作为划分行政区界的地物标志,所以南岭也是诸省区的边缘。


Hot temper makes people lose what it should be and gain what it would be.


you need to understand the message I want to deliver, and help me out when you can, rather than merely giving your negative criticisms.

I do not think that my comments are negative in the case that they are given to a publication. Because you said you were author of this article http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=9013 in Wiki, I found my responsibility to talk with you. But, if you found my comments negative, then…

I see that some Vietnamese who are interested in history, who quote a lot of ideas from books, either from Vietnamese authors or Chinese authors, (I am not sure whether their quotations are genuine or not), and raise a debate amongst the Vietnamese. Their POV is similar to the Pan-Yue concept. I think that is the reason the owner of this thread thinks that the Vietnamese believe in the Pan-Yue theory. In this post, I just want to say that they are only few persons who are education-limited who attempt to re-write Vietnamese history book. The reason I see them being education-limited is that they claim to know languages, but their way of writing, in either Vietnamese or English, is poor, and they seem not to be able to read Chinese with good understanding.

http://www.chinahist...opic=8910&st=30

….these comments were positive? I am neither Tran Dai Sy nor Truong Thai Du. A Vietnamese may not give such comments to other Vietnamese. Note that I did not think that I gave comments to that online publication on wikipedia by Vietnamese writer.

My comments were to response to you when you were the author’s of that article on WIKIPEDIA. In this case, either you are Vietnamese or Chinese, what you should do was to review the articles and make revision, if necessary, not to anger me. If you are not, you should get rid of those comments and suppose that they were sent to a wrong address.

Regards,

TTA

Edited by thankstoall, 27 December 2005 - 02:25 PM.

藩西湖曰「不廢漢學不可救南國」
Cụ Phan Ty Hồ: "Khng phế bỏ Hn Học, khng cứu được nước Nam".

#15 Nguyen-Trong Cam

Nguyen-Trong Cam

    Grand Guardian (Taibao 太保)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 277 posts
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City
  • Interests:Geopolitics, history, anthropology, sociology, economics, finance.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History

Posted 27 December 2005 - 11:14 AM

thankstoall, let's not try to guess what are each others true intentions, because it is hard to do it right.
We can only concentrate on each others stated points of view. As you may know, in Vietnamese forums, there are many openly stated Chinese who live or once lived in Vietnam. We consider them part of our people, and have the right to participate. The reason that Truong Thai Du raised controversy was because of his manners, not his points of view. And the issue of ethnicity was raised afterwards, as a result, not as a reason to attack his points of view. I still think it shouldn't be raised, though I myself have been guilty of discussing it as well.
On the other hand, there may be people who hide their true ethnic identity. Most of the time to avoid misunderstanding of their points of view, but possibly sometimes for indecent purposes. We have no way of knowing, though. And it is best to just concentrate on the message.
Heck, Truong Thai Du is only 50% Vietnamese; you're 33%. But he tends to consider himself Chinese, and you are more Vietnamese than me in your ardent devotion to our welfare. Let's just take things at face value.
Cheers.
"Old shoes, blunt sword, off to the battle I go."
Nguye^~n Bi'nh, "The Southern Song"




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users